Duarte Levy..

Freelance journalist

Maddie: David Payne interview at Leicestershire Police Headquarters – part II/III

Read part one here.

Person Interviewed:    David PAYNE
Place of Interview:    Force Headquarters, Enderby
Date of Interview:    11.04.08
Time Commenced:    1319 hours
Time Concluded:    1459 hours
Interviewing Officer(s)    DC 1485 MESSIAH
Other Persons Present    None

1485    “Okay the video is now recording again.”
Reply    “Okay.”
1485    “We’ll continue with the interview on Friday the eleventh of April two thousand eight at Leicestershire Police Force Headquarters. I make the time by my watch thirteen nineteen on that day, I’m DC Ivor MESSIAH and I’m a Detective within the Major Crime Team in Leicestershire Police. Could you tell me who you are please?”
Reply    “I’m David PAYNE.”
1485    “Okay, that should suffice for the time being. Just to continue the introductions, you’re here in relation to assist Leicestershire Police as a witness into the disappearance of Madeleine MCCANN in Portugal on the third of May two thousand and seven. Is that alright?”
Reply    “That’s correct.”
1485    “And we’ve already had a first interview and what we discussed in the first interview was in some depth really wasn’t it, the time that you left, or your planning of the holiday, your flight out, you know your subsequent arrival in Portugal and then we tried as best we could to go through your days from the Saturday till Thursday.”
Reply    “Yes.”
1485    “Alright, what I now want you to concentrate on David is the important day really, Thursday the third of May. I want you to try and put yourself back in to that, it may help you if you think of the time when the alarm was raised, that may well bring you back to the beginning of the day and try and remember as much as you can, the time you got up, I know that you said on the first interviews that you couldn’t remember an awful lot but try as best you can to remember from say midday onwards.”

Reply    “Mm yeah, err on that particular day err me and Fiona had you know gone down to the beach, we err took the dinghies out err as usual we went, you know we had the kids, err we had lunch err in the apartment. Err that afternoon I wanted to go down err to the Ocean, err to the beach and err you know windsurf err Matt and Russell had gone down there, they were, had taken the catamaran out. So I went down there err while Fiona and Dianne were looking after the girls in our apartment. Err I was down err windsurfing, I must have been windsurfing for a couple of hours, err saw Matt and Russ out on err the catamaran and then after we finished there we you know we met on the beach, played with the girls on the beach and then we went to the err the restaurant which is on the err overlooking the beach and you know we had err the evening meal there. Err after we had the meal we got some ice cream and then err we decided that we were gonna go up and play tennis so I left err with err Russell, we left the, err the girls at the restaurant and we went up to the, err back up to the Ocean Club. Err I, as I say I’m not sure you know what happened to Matt and Russell at that particular moment but I remember then you know I went over to see err Gerry at the err you know tennis courts, just to see you know what was happening, and err decided that we’d, you know I’d come, come back to play tennis and err Gerry had asked me just to pop in and check everything was alright err with Kate or you know again I can’t remember the exact reason whether he was just making sure it was alright that he could stay there and you know more time but you know he’d asked me to pop in. So I walked back err from the tennis courts, err back to err you know Kate and Gerry’s apartment and the time you know looking at, you know we’ve looked obviously at photographs since then and you know the time that we’ve got that I was you know going to Kate’s about six thirty, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors. The three children were all you know dressed you know in their pyjamas, you know they looked immaculate, you know they were just like angels, they all looked so happy and well looked after and content and I said to Kate, you know it’s a bit early for the you know, for the three of them to be going to bed, she said ah they’ve had such a great time, they’re really tired and you know err so I say, you know I can’t remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour, but you know just to reinforce they were just so happy, you know seeing you know obviously Gerry wasn’t there but they were just all, just so at peace and you know they looked like a family who’d had such a fantastic time and err yeah then I left there, went and got my stuff, went back to the tennis courts and then err there was me, Matt and Russell and I think Gerry played a little, for a little while but he decided that he’d, he’d played enough tennis for that day and err was going back and so it left with me, Russell and err Matt and err Dan who was the, the you know the tennis coach from Mark Warner. Err so we played some tennis and you know we were having a good knock and then it was getting a bit late so err we, you know we left the tennis courts, went back to our respective partners to get ready to go out, you know it was, it was, you know certainly after half past seven that we’d, you know we’d left the courts, perhaps even a bit later than that. Err when I got back err I think because Fiona had done a lot of babysitting and left me playing tennis she said well I’m gonna go for a very quick run so she went for a run on the beach, you know, err got the kids ready, bathed, got them ready for err to go to bed but again you know as we’d got back late err from the tennis courts you know the whole time err for that evening was not, you know later. And then we just got ready to go and by the time Fi had got back from the run we’d all had showers, we were all ready to go and the girls were asleep and we were happy to leave the apartment, it was you know it was sort of gone quarter to nine. Err we walked down, the three of us, err you know to the Tapas area err we bumped into Matt, he was walking err back to the apartment and err you know he was, he was, you know semi-jokingly said oh I’ve come to check because you’ve taken so long and you know which actually transpired that they were quite err getting agitated because you know the time the table was booked at half past eight and you know it was approaching nine o’ clock and you know they thought it was, it wasn’t appropriate that we weren’t there you know as early as we should have been. So then Matt carried err back, you know, to the apartment and we went to the table. Err when we sat, sat down I err sat next to Gerry and err you know of course the next few minutes just started chatting to Gerry and you know I said to him you know this is you know has been one of the best days I’ve had in a long time you know and we were just chatting about what we’d done and he was reciprocating just saying you know what, what a fantastic day they’d had, what a fantastic week it was and you know just a general consensus was that you know it was just a fantastic time. Err again I was aware that err you know that other people were leaving the table, err I know that err the, err between Russell and Jane they were leaving the table err to look after Evie. It transpired that at some stage she’d been unwell and err Evie, sorry then Russ, so Russell was basically, was missing the part of the main course and then Jane went you know and ate hers and then disappeared off to take over so we all you know I think made the same joke that Jane said oh I’ve gone to relieve you know Russell and you know that’s, and then you know I remember the other people that night you know again it’s in part of the things that we discussed after but you know I was sort of aware as well that there was, rather than all just checking on their own they were just cross-checking as well but still you know very err frequently. Err and then you know it got to obviously when Kate, Kate left, I hadn’t realised that she’d, you know, left the table again just busy chatting, then Kate came back just after ten o’ clock, you know absolutely distraught err you know just, you know her face I’ll never forget. It was a face of someone’s child who had been taken and you know and very clearly said she’s gone, she’s you know, she’s gone, you know and there was a disbelief on our face you know ah you know you must be mistaken, what, and then you know just looking at her we just all err left the table, rushed over to her and as we were walking up towards the flat she said err you know they’ve taken her and it was, you know, and I know there’s been a controversy about what was actually said but you know that is very accurately what had been said. Like I say, as I say you know you could just never forget her face and those words, and err as we were, you know, approaching their apartment I was just saying to Kate, I said well look how do you know that is the case, and err you know again I, I can’t remember the exact words then, but I was very interested in finding what the state of the apartment was like when she’d got there to see who’d left err doors open or etcetera. And from my point of view you know the things that were, I think it was really pertinent to me was that there was two, there was two gates on the back entrance from that apartment. There’s the gate which is immediately bring, you know brings you on to the err the road and then there was another child gate, that was at the top and I, you know, and given the fact that the front door was shut I was just saying well what was the state of those two gates, were those gates open when you went up or were they shut, and she was adamant that those two gates were shut. Well you know there was two possibilities, she’d either been taken or she’d wandered off, no child is gonna wander off and shut two gates behind them so at that moment I knew, although I didn’t want to believe it, but I knew that she’d been abducted. Then you know obviously pretty much I think, you know, people that pretty much the same as me you know it’s a shock, you know ah because you’re, you know, you’re still not wanting to believe what, what the obvious is and you know so we, you know we, we went, you know went to the apartment err you know and I didn’t actually enter too much into the room but I walked to the edge and you know there was, you know the twins were in their cots, err they were in you know parallel, there was you know I could see, you know I think they were much further into the room but you know I could see Madeleine’s bed and then you know it was just like all hell broke loose. You know we, you know we didn’t know what to do, we went running around you know err the safety of my own you know children, you know I started, you wanted to check that your own two are alright so I, some say I ran up to our apartment and checked they were alright. Dianne had err had said, Fiona had asked Dianne to stay at the table, at the Tapas just in case err you know Madeleine wandered by or you know and thought that was the best place and I say at some stage I went back and asked Dianne to just, could you go and stay with the children. I did a sweep of the err the pool err and the area you know immediately around err the Ocean Club, then met up with Matt and err Russell and you know I remember saying right what, you know, what we gonna do and Matt was saying right we’ve gotta try and be you know systematic here err you know, right if you, you want to go off in that area and I’ll go down to the Ocean Club reception and you know ask them to call the Police and so you know I, I started venturing up towards the err Millennium where we’d eaten and it was just so quiet and there was nothing going on that way and I just thought oh you know, and I again I was just building up hope that she’d ran off err you know I actually went on a search and I went down past the Supermarket, I went down towards the err seafront, you know went along the whole length of the err beach looking under you know err beach huts and etcetera, just you know and shouting Madeleine, any people that we saw we explained, but also in the melee there was err other people err sorry going back to the apartment so was popping in just to you know, to see what’s happening, had the Police arrived err you know just to see who was, you know, thinking that some, you know, body would take charge of the situation and err Mark Warner staff had err grouped together and they were err you know trying to help the situation. Err one of the Mark Warner err ladies was staying with, in the apartment with err with Kate, you know Fiona stayed there, there was people you know popping in and out. There was a lady I think who I believe she came from the flat who ended up, you know, coming in towards their apartment as offering help and you know the next recollection really is that you know the Police, there was two Policemen who err arrived who I believe were from the GNR, err you know it felt you know quite some time before they got there, err I think there was a language barrier, the err one of the receptionists from the Tapas area, Sylvia, she was trying, actually no it wasn’t Sylvia, it was the lady, one of the ladies who we, you know, I can’t remember her name, who was trying to communicate you know between us and we were trying to convey that she’s been abducted and we, we got a computer err printer, we’d got a picture of Madeleine so that it could be distributed as quickly as possible. We were trying to impress the importance to the, to the err two Policemen err that you know that she’d been abducted, that you need to close off all the roads and that you know, that this is an abduction and you know at that was basically the sequence of events up to that stage. Err we then you know, did some more searching, went around, you know, Mark Warner staff, went to different areas just, I didn’t know whether she’d ran off and, you know obviously nothing, you know nothing transpired and then as time lapsed then there was some Police from err Portimão arrived, two plain clothed Police, there was some other Police in the background, whether they were from Portugal I don’t know, you know they were just hanging back and then err the two Portuguese err Detectives wanted to you know have time with Kate and Gerry and just specifically question them. Err you know I made err a phone call at some stage in the evening to err Fiona’s dad back in the UK who I’ve got a lot of respect for and has given me very, a lot of very good advice because you know you certainly would never have believe that you will find yourself in a situation err like this and you know there was very able people who were there, you know. Everybody who was out there you know was very responsible and people that I would turn to but under the circumstances I don’t think anyone functions err particularly anywhere near a hundred percent and you know just looking to try and get some advice from someone outside the situation because you know we just didn’t feel that we could get this message across to err to anybody that she had been abducted.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Err so then you know the Police were with err you know Kate and Gerry, you know chatting to them and you know looking at the apartment, etcetera, and they, you know I felt that they had been probably around for about an hour and then Matt met up with err with Kate and Gerry after. Me and Gerry you know I’m not sure what time it was, it was you know between three and four o’ clock when, again looking for her. We went down err through past the Ocean Club reception, we went down err to the beach and in between all this you know Kate and Gerry were just breaking down you know just their behaviour was, you know was never questioned or did I ever think there was anything strange about you know their behaviour and how they would, they would act, you know in such a set of circumstances and you know Gerry’s a very stoical person and you know, I think you know its the way that he’s conducted himself over the past few months you know, and he broke down with me on the front, you know. You know just very obviously a broken man, and you know we spent some time you know, not long, I was trying my best to console him, we went back then to the err the apartment, you know it’s, by around about four, four thirty in the morning you know there was nothing else that you know that we could do. The Police had left err the twins had been, at this stage, moved into err into our apartment, and we made beds up on the floor for Kate and Gerry in our apartment and we must have, you know, err gone into bedrooms around about you know four, four thirty around that time. We err slept for a couple of hours, we woke up to find that you know Kate and Gerry had already been out looking you know err for Madeleine err and then we were obviously waiting for things to happen, you know, quite frustrated, and err you know and then certain people arrived outside again you know from, from the err Police and err at that stage err yeah I, I was talking with Robert MURAT. He was err somebody that I would not a hundred percent say that I saw the night before but there was somebody who was also err who was translating for us that evening who I you know briefly chatted to, stood next to a Policeman, that I you know thought to be Robert MURAT but I would never say conclusively that that was Robert MURAT. And then but I just said I’m not, in my mind, I’m not dealing with him I’m getting much better with the other lady you know because they were just, you know pontificating around the area and I just wanted direct answers I didn’t want someone just talking generally around the situation. And then err so there’s me and Kate, we were just waiting outside seeing what was happening and err so then as I say Robert MURAT introduced himself, he said he was err you know somebody who’s re, you know, was living out there, was originally from the UK, that he’d got a daughter who was a very similar age to Madeleine and that they looked very similar. He said that he’d been involved with something err you know major back, back home err I thought he said Norfolk but again I’m not a hundred percent sure on that, and you know at this stage, you know I, there was no, he was very over familiar and wanted to be helping the situation and that’s all I would say, I wouldn’t say any more than that. And then the err Police you know it transpired that they were going to interview us and you know so then we, we ended up going to the station. I was with Kate, err there was Gerry, err Matt, you know I can’t be a hundred percent else, sure who was there, and you know so I always spent quite a lot of time with Kate during the hours of, of err Friday and again you know everything that she was like, you know, was someone whose daughter had been taken. You know we were, and he, we were sat outside err one of the rooms err where they had err like TV footage coming in from I don’t know where, and there’s a story coming back that there had been a sighting of Madeleine at one of the petrol stations err you know Kate was eager, you know wanted to know more about, you know where have you seen her you know.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “It was just…”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “It was just, you know, there was, there just no, there was nothing that she did that I thought was unlike someone who had not had their child abducted and there was everything that I’d expect to be.”
1485    “The way she reacted?”
Reply    “The way she reacted err you know obviously we were, we were interviewed that, that day and you know we had very little sleep, you know we were very tired, the interviews, and that’s my real recollections of that.”
1485    “That period. Anything else?”
Reply    “Err, with any specifics prompts or?”
1485    “No, just making sure that you know…”
Reply    “Yeah.”
1485    “You’ve done, you’ve remembered everything you possibly can that’s all.”
Reply    “Yeah. I’m sure if I chatted more to you I’d probably remember more.”
1485    “Well all I was gonna do is I was gonna go back to, I was gonna try and take you in stages through you know your recall just to see whether it could prompt anything else really, and what I want to try and do is go back to you know the Tapas bar really.”
Reply    “Yes.”
1485    “Sorry, further back than that I want to go back to the beach.”
Reply    “Yes.”
1485    “Because you said that you were on the beach, you was windsurfing.”
Reply    “Yes.”
1485    “And you spotted Matt and Russell.”
Reply    “Yes.”
1485    “On the catamaran.”
Reply    “Yes.”
1485    “Something happened on the catamaran where Matt fell in.”
Reply    “Yes.”
1485    “Do you know about that?”
Reply    “Yeah I mean that was a topic of conversation that we had at the table, you know, because Matt is the experienced sailor of the two of them and err Russell err you know hadn’t done a great deal of sailing and catamarans are not particularly easy I understand err to sail and err Matt had gone overboard and Russell then had to get the catamaran back to pick him up so that was err you know a story of amusement at the table.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Err I didn’t actually see that happen you know.”
1485    “Right.”
Reply    “But you know I certainly saw them out there, err on the water.”
1485    “Yeah, what sort of time, excuse me it’s getting a warm in here, what sort of time was that that you saw them?”
Reply    “You know I’d say, I’d say you know roughly around three o’ clock but very roughly.”
1485    “Yeah very roughly.”
Reply    “Err you know I, generally our girls slept in the afternoon say between two and four and err so that’d be the time that I’d have gone out there and I was out there for a couple of hours you know err the, I’ve done a great deal of windsurfing and you know the conditions were very good.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Err so as I say we were out there for a couple of, I was out there for a couple of hours.”
1485    “So the girls went to bed at, woke up about four, so you think it would have been after four that you’d have gone down to the beach then?”
Reply    “Err well no because I mean like usually like while they were asleep it’s a good time to do you know activities and you know someone could stay behind, look after the children so err Fiona, and I think Dianne, had both stayed behind and you know I said well I’ll go get a, get a…”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “A windsurf.”
1485    “Right. So did you walk down to the beach on your own then?”
Reply    “Yes, as far as I remember I think Matt and Russ had gone, gone already, gone down before me.”
1485    “And did you see anybody on your way down?”
Reply    “Err…”
1485    “Your group or other?”
Reply    “I can’t remember.”
1485    “And when you got down to the beach was the beach busy?”
Reply    “Err not, not horrendously, no. I mean there was some other windsurfers there err you know I remember when I was out windsurfing you know seeing other people windsurfing as well.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “But you know, again, it wasn’t particularly busy.”
1485    “How long do you think you stayed out there for?”
Reply    “I think I was probably out there the best part of a couple of hours.”
1485    “So we’re saying around about six o’ clock ish, would that be about right?”
Reply    “Err well I mean we were probably, as I say, windsurfing I was windsurfing around two to four o’ clock, then we had the girls come down so there was some playing on the beach.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Then we went for something to eat and then we left the err restaurant and err you know, I hadn’t got a watch on me, I hadn’t you know I hadn’t got a mobile, all we had was the camera which you know as I say the time on that suggests that we left the restaurant err you know after six o’ clock, so you know just working backwards…”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “The time that I thought we’d finished you know…”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Water sports would be around four o’ clock, then a bit of time on the beach and then you know your meal, which would take an hour, which seems to fit in with the, you know the timescale of events.”
1485    “So who did you leave on the beach when you, when you walked up?”
Reply    “When, when we left we didn’t leave from the beach we left from the err restaurant.”
1485    “The restaurant, but who did you leave at the restaurant?”
Reply    “Err the, basically the err the children and the ladies that stayed behind, err just to finish off there and err and then we, you know Fiona said to me we’d better get going if you’re gonna miss all the, you know any activities err so we said right well we’ll go, we’ll get up there and you know play tennis.”
1485    “Yeah, when you say the ladies, that was Fiona and…”
Reply    “Yeah, Jane and Rachael, yeah.”
1485    “Right, and the respective children?”
Reply    “Yes, yes.”
1485    “Okay, and who did you walk back to the Ocean Club with?”
Reply    “Err there was Russell and Matt. As I say I can’t, can’t remember what hap, whether they went, we peeled off and they carried up to the apartment and I said oh I’ll just go down to the tennis, you know, I can’t remember exactly what happened at that stage, but I know I went and spoke to Gerry.”
1485    “So on your way back what route would you take on the way back? There’s a map for this one.”
Reply    “Yeah, we…”
1485    “Unfortunately the map doesn’t show the beach, it’ll show the proximity going back to the apartment block. Which way is the beach? If you imagine, or if you look at, that’s, there’s the Tapas.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
1485    “So that would have been Kate and Gerry’s apartment.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
1485    “So you’d walk round there from your Tapas, so which way would the beach be?”
Reply    “Okay, so, sorry that’s the, is this the Tapas here?”
1485    “That’s the Tapas yeah.”
Reply    “Yeah, so our apartments would be about here so err you know we went, crikey, the Ocean Club is there I presume, does that say Ocean Club? Yeah.”
1485    “The Ocean Club garden.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
1485    “I think that’s the Ocean Club in general.”
Reply    “Yeah the main reception part sorry, so we, we would walk past here, this is the Supermarket I presume, here.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “You’d walk past that way. There’s err you know we’d go along past the err Ocean reception down and then there was a road which kind of like quite a steep road which had err there was a small Supermarket there.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “There was err a pub there which I think was quite popular with err you know locals and holiday makers and that, that road led you right down and at the end of the road is the err restaurant. Now, you know, I wouldn’t say every time we walked back that way, there, there was another route that you, we, we cut through as well but I, I’m pretty sure that night we walked up that way and round because I know we walked past the Ocean Club.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “But err…”
1485    “Okay, but how long would that generally take you?”
Reply    “How long? Err I’d say, yeah ten fifteen minutes walk.”
1485    “So when you got back to the apartments or the complex.”
Reply    “Yes.”
1485    “There’s the tennis courts there.”
Reply    “Yes.”
1485    “So presumably what you’re saying is you walked up with Matt and Russell.”
Reply    “Yeah, yes.”
1485    “That way.”
Reply    “As far as I can remember…”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “That, you know, I just seemed to have got the images of walking past the reception.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Well the only way we could have walked past the reception is if we’d have gone that route.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “So that’s what I’m basing my err recollection on.”
1485    “Did you go straight then to the tennis courts?”
Reply    “Yes, I think I did, I think I’d gone straight there to chat with Gerry just to check that, you know, what was going on and everything and then went err went back to see Kate after.”
1485    “And what was Gerry doing?”
Reply    “Err Gerry had been, you know, playing you know tennis already, he was having a good err game and I think there was you know, and there were a couple of the other tennis players who had specifically gone out there on a Mark Warner holiday to play tennis and you know Gerry was, you know, getting a lot out of the week from the tennis and made friends with those people and he was having a good game with them. Err so you know he would basically be playing tennis.”
1485    “Yeah, and at what point did you have the conversation with him? Did he stop the game or did you speak whilst he was playing?”
Reply    “I can’t remember, I can’t remember. I, you know, in my mind, you know, he stopped playing and you know but I can’t remember if I’m perfectly honest.”
1485    “And how long did you stay and watch the game for?”
Reply    “Err all I remember is I was having a, you know, a brief conversation with Gerry, err you know and then you know I went back, I didn’t actually stay there for too long because of the time, you know, was ticking by err but again these are, you know…”
1485    “Afterwards.”
Reply    “Yeah, recollections rather than you know whether there was anything in between, there could well have been.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “So where were you going then? Presumably you weren’t going to play tennis were you? When you left the beach, what was…”
Reply    “Yeah, oh yes that was always the intention and that’s what Fiona was saying, look if you’re actually gonna do anything tonight you’d better get yourselves up there and it’s getting quite late so that was, you know, that’s the reason we’d all gone ahead because we waited till the children had finished eating and err got in the prams and got up there, you know it takes another five ten minutes on top walking back with them, err then you know we’d have lost the opportunity. Err again, presuming that you know the tennis was usually around six thirty, that if you know, if we’re leaving the restaurant you know, quarter past six or whatever, around that time, that you know if we’d leave it much longer with it taking ten minutes or whatever to walk up just to start the tennis at half six, you know we were already cutting it fine and I think as it transpired we were playing tennis till you know even beyond there, it was quarter to seven, or around then and err you know if we’d have left it much later then we just thought well it’s gonna finish, so.”
1485    “Right, were you going for a lesson or were you actually going to play?”
Reply    “We were gonna play, there was obviously me, Matt and Russ, and Gerry was making up the four, fourth err person.”
1485    “But he was already playing?”
Reply    “Yeah he’d already been playing and that’s partly the reason that he kind of like threw in the towel early and said ah you know I’ve had, enough’s enough, I’ve had a good day and err but then we managed to get Dan, the pro, just to play a bit with us err you know so that made up the four ball err just for a little while.”
1485    “So your four…”
Reply    “Yeah.”
1485    “Was yourself, Matt, Russell and…”
Reply    “Well it started off with Gerry and we had a bit with him and then Dan played a bit.”
1485    “And Dan, Dan replaced Gerry then did he?”
Reply    “Yeah.”
1485    “How far through the game was that?”
Reply    “I can’t remember.”
1485    “Sets wise?”
Reply    “Err you know whether we played one, you know again this is just, yeah usually we’d play a set and then change over so most likely it would be Gerry played a set and then left, that was most likely how it happened.”
1485    “Okay, and it was at what point that Gerry said to you go and, would you mind checking at Kate?”
Reply    “Well I mean coming back from the beach I’d got no equipment to play tennis you know, etcetera, so I had to go back to my room to you know change into stuff appropriate for playing tennis in, and err so he knew that I’d walk up that by and past so he said oh why don’t you err, you know can you just pop in on the way, the way up, so it was on the way back from me picking the stuff up.”
1485    “Right, so you’ve walked past, you’ve walked past Gerry’s apartment to get to yours.”
Reply    “Mm.”
1485    “Got changed?”
Reply    “No, you know it was, again whether it was, in my mind it was on the way up that I’d popped in to Kate but it could have been on the way back, again, I’m sorry.”
1485    “No, it’s okay.”
Reply    “For my vagueness.”
1485    “But either way you’d have had to walk past because you go the roadside don’t you?”
Reply    “Yeah.”
1485    “So you’d have had to walk past Gerry’s…”
Reply    “Yeah.”
1485    “Front door twice wouldn’t you?”
Reply    “Yeah.”
1485    “Is that right?”
Reply    “So, the reason why I think it was more likely that I did it on the way there was because I’ve called in through the err patio, it kind of made more sense that I’d have walked in through the gate and then up through the you know where the sliding doors are to say I’m here, rather than going up to my apartment, coming back down, coming past the apartment and then coming in the sliding doors.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Because what I would have done is I’d have got changed and gone downstairs and then knocked on the front door because that, you know that would have made more sense rather than going all the way round and…”
1485    “Yeah, course.”
Reply    “So that’s in my mind why it makes more sense that it was, that that was on the way up.”
1485    “Right, so how long did you spend in your apartment before, I know you, I appreciate that you can’t recall whether it’s going or coming.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
1485    “The likelihood is that it’s on the way.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
1485    “How long did you spend in your apartment?”
Reply    “I mean again, we’ve you know, we’ve chatted about the timings and everything and you know looked at the photographs and you know, you know we were leaving about quarter past six from the err restaurant, we’d gotta walk up there, ten, fifteen minutes, conversation with Gerry, conversation with Kate, you know that’s another five, ten minutes on to your ten, fifteen minutes walk so you’re talking twenty five minutes, so that’s taken you to twenty five to, twenty to seven, well you know we were certainly playing tennis for a, you know the best part of an hour err so you know it couldn’t have been long that I was in the apartment, you know a matter of minutes.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “You know just to pick the kit up and, and then go back down really.”
1485    “Did you have your own racquet?”
Reply    “I didn’t, no, I was using the, err Mark Warner’s racquets.”
1485    “Mark Warner’s, okay. I just want to revisit the going and seeing Kate before we move on.”
Reply    “Mm.”
1485    “Alright, and the reason why I’ve kept it separate is because I want you to just think now.”
Reply    “Mm.”
1485    “And imagine, remember what you saw.”
Reply    “Mm.”
1485    “Did you open the door, slid door? Or was it already open? Or…”
Reply    “Err I think it was already open, I think it was already open. Err you know, as I say, I walked up there, Kate was you know I say looking very relaxed and err I say a comment to her I said well crikey it’s early, early for them to be getting ready you know for bed, as I say she said ah no, I’ve had such a good, you know such a good day and afternoon err so you know, and Gerry’s just obviously finishing off playing tennis and err so you know hopefully try and get them down and as I say we were just, you know I, I know, it does sound bizarre but I just looked at the three of them and I couldn’t, you know they were just so well presented and so clean and immaculate it was, you know I was, and you know they just looked such healthy children, err you know, there’s, there’s you know nothing that normally…”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Triggers in my mind like that but it was just how well that they looked and err…”
1485    “Try to remember where in, where they were in the apartment.”
Reply    “Err, I mean the, the time that I was there err you know all, all of them err all the children and Kate were in the, err as soon as you go through the patio doors err you know they were all in the immediate area you know in front of you, err that was the area that they generally, you know when I saw them, so I didn’t, no I didn’t go any further into the apartment, you know it was just a conversation that I like, you know walked into the, you know through the French doors, I went into the lounge err you know the open plan area and err you know just had a brief conversation, you know things started off by as I say, saying about the, how well they looked and you know, it’s early to get them ready for bed and then I said oh Gerry’s, you know just finished over there, we’re going over to play a bit of tennis, err I probably said is there any problems with that and she said ah no, no fine, you know carry on, and err you know perhaps a bit more of a conversation err but you know it, it wasn’t many minutes that I was, was there.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “But err certainly enough time just to see, you know, certainly the apartment, there was nothing that was untoward, that was you know err the children all looked extremely happy, there was no, you know signs of any problems with err you know Kate, you know or indeed the relationship that Kate had got with any of the three children. None of the children had been told off, none of the children looked like they were you know in trouble for anything, you know they were err still all talking and playing around. Err so you know it was just a very err transient you know that I’d gone in there, but as I say it just struck me how well they all looked.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “And content I suppose is the other word to use.”
1485    “Did you actually go into the apartment?”
Reply    “I did.”
1485    “Or did you do the conversation from the door?”
Reply    “No, definitely was inside the apartment, you know whether it be two or three steps into the apartment or you know however many, but I was definitely in the apartment.”
1485    “Okay, so now what I’m gonna try and ask you to recollect, what everybody was wearing.”
Reply    “I’m afraid that is, you know I’m, I cannot recall at all. I know that’s, you’d think that’d be an obvious thing to remember, I cannot remember. As I say the, from the children point of view predominantly I can remember the, you know, white, but I couldn’t say exactly what they were wearing. Err…”
1485    “But could you remember what Kate was wearing for example?”
Reply    “I can’t, no.”
1485    “And did you actually set eyes on each individual child?”
Reply    “All three children I saw, yeah.”
1485    “And were they standing up? Sitting down?”
Reply    “Err they were generally standing up, yeah.”
1485    “Did they actually acknowledge you?”
Reply    “Err oh yeah, you know I’m very sure that if you’d have asked them, you know that evening or the next day they’d all say ah yeah, I popped in. You know I, you know I did know the children very well, we’d all you know, met up many times before err you know I, you know again I’d be playing with Madeleine you know in the, err the play area err you know during that week, you know lifting her up, twizzing her round and everything, I knew her that well, you know, to do that, and as I say err she’d definitely know who I was and certainly, as I say, just to reinforce that she looked very happy.”
1485    “Yeah. Was that the last time you saw Madeleine?”
Reply    “It was.”
1485    “How many minutes, you said as a matter of minutes and then you went back and then you played tennis.”
Reply    “Mm.”
1485    “I’m gonna pin you down and ask you how long you think you were in there for. I know you say minutes.”
Reply    “In their apartment, it, it, I’d say three minutes, five maximum.”
1485    “Three to five?”
Reply    “Yeah.”
1485    “So then you step back out, did you leave the doors open or did you close them?”
Reply    “Err I couldn’t remember. You know, again, I’ve got the, in my mind that the doors were open when I went in and I probably would have just walked out back that way, you know, it still, I mean it’s still relatively nice outside, it was light and everything so err you know I, I, whether they kept the door open it’s just nice when it’s the end of the evening you know, sorry, you know the end of the afternoon, but if I’m perfectly honest the answer to that question is I can’t remember.”
1485    “Okay. So then you went back and then you played, you played a game for about an hour?”
Reply    “Yeah.”
1485    “You think from seven, from about seven till about eight?”
Reply    “Yeah, I mean it must, I mean it was before, I mean we got back before eight o’ clock err you know so perhaps just before seven, err sorry, err yeah just before seven so it was just before eight o’ clock. As I say when I got back I think I was cutting it fine and Fiona was still keen to go for a run and we started to get everyone ready for bed.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “And err so it was, as I say, about an hour but certainly we’d finished before eight o’ clock.”
1485    “Okay, and when you finished, I’m just trying to put this in order here, when you actually, when you finished and you went back to the apartment, did you say anything to Gerry about, about the fact that his family were fine? Or…”
Reply    “Yeah, err yeah, I haven’t mentioned this before, but yes, yeah I’d certainly, when we met up I said oh yeah, you know everything’s fine there, you know probably along the lines of you know you’ve got a bit more of a free pass you know you can carry on for a bit longer, Kate’s fine without everyone you know all the children are, are happy, there’s no difficulties with bath time or anything so you know, without actually saying all that just conveying to him that you know I don’t think you need to err rush back, you’ve got a free pass for a bit longer.”
1485    “Alright.”
Reply    “Err yeah.”
1485    “So was that as soon as you got back to the, to the tennis courts?”
Reply    “Yeah that would have been when we got back.”
1485    “When you got back to the tennis courts as opposed to at the end of the tennis session.”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah, yeah.”
1485    “Okay, and was he fine with that?”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, again, you know it’s difficult with cameras and everything, you don’t want to sound (inaudible) or anything, but you know he’s a very sorted person, a very caring person and that’s the kind of thing, you know he’s very organised.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “And you know he will make sure everything’s fine and sorted before you know the, the, he’d carry on and do something for his own benefit if you like. So you know he was certainly one to, he would have wanted to know before you know continuing.”
1485    “Okay. We’ve talked, you’ve talked about you know, you’ve gone back and you’ve got ready and Fiona’s gone for a run. I’ll move on to, you know, the time that, because you’d already discussed about going, leaving the apartment, the, you know, the situation how you’d left your doors and you know.”
Reply    “Mm, yes.”
1485    “The intercom and all the rest of it. I’m just gonna move on to when you actually got to the Tapas, you said that you passed Matt on the way down.”
Reply    “Mm.”
1485    “Whereabouts did you pass him?”
Reply    “Err…”
1485    “Can you mark, just…”
Reply    “Yeah, the err where’s, this is the entrance here into the Tapas area.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Err my recollection was that we were just got, you know we were round there, I thought we’d actually entered into the Tapas bar to just…”
1485    “Actually into the complex?”
Reply    “Just, just into the complex, but certainly we hadn’t made it yet to the swimming pool but it was just, just about there.”
1485    “Okay.”
Reply    “Err yeah.”
1485    “And what time do you think that was?”
Reply    “Err we were, we were just before nine, you know just before nine o’ clock err we yeah we went between quarter to and nine o’ clock.”
1485    “And then you sat down, after the comments of course that you…”
Reply    “Yes, yeah.”
1485    “Who was there when you got, when you got to the table?”
Reply    “Err well, as I say, Gerry was sat next to me, err on my left, and then there was this choice of where Dianne was gonna sit with err, err Matt and err Russell, so those people had to be there, Kate was obviously there, Fiona had walked down with, as well, and err and as for Rachael and Jane I, I cannot say a hundred percent that they were there.”
1485    “What was Gerry doing when you got there?”
Reply    “Err I, again my recollection is we sat down and I just started talking to him, but I’m not sure whether that is entirely correct, whether he was having a conversation with somebody else before and then you know I just started talking but my recollection we started, you know, not far after we’d sat down we just started talking and you know, and I say we were just saying, you know what we’d both done and what a fantastic day that we’d had err you know and I know beyond the call of this interview but you know I’d had a lot of stress you know with work and over the last few years and you know it’s, it’s you know two, two young children it’s not been a particularly easy time and you know and for me that was the first day in many, many a month that I’d really enjoyed it and then Gerry had reciprocated and said we also had one of the best days that we’d had in many, many a month. You know that is my recollection of the first thing that happened on that table, but just, whether its because it was such a positive conversation that we’d had, which override the fact that there was other things that had happened before I wouldn’t like to say but in my mind that was the first thing that had happened.”
1485    “Yeah. So did you notice that he got up to go and check Madeleine, or to check his children?”
Reply    “Yeah, I mean I, you know I know the people who left the table but I couldn’t tell you what order they left in and I couldn’t tell you what the time is that they left. You know, people have chatted about it, you know we’ve read about it and I’m not prepared to say well I think this is what happened because I’m sure my view’s been tainted by, you know, what we’ve read and what we’ve seen.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Err but you know I’m, you know it’s, I knew that Russell, you know had had problems because Evie had been ill and he, you know, had left the table you know for err, err quite a few minutes because you know he was having to, you know he came back saying oh he’s had to clean the sheets and she’d been sick and everything and then there was the issue of the err them bringing out his food and they had to re-cook him, you know another meal and then Jane had quickly eaten her meal you know so that she could then leave the table so those things you know, I’m sure, you know, I know happened and unfortunately I can’t be any more helpful in saying this was the time, this is how long they were gone for. Err yeah I know that Gerry left the table, you know, I can remember him, I remember him coming back to say well you know, he wasn’t left, you know he didn’t leave at you know an unreasonable amount of time, it didn’t seem that he was away for particularly long, you know he did make some comment, which I know that if someone else was hearing as a group had said yeah, I’ll say yeah you know that’s what he said, but I can’t remember err entirely, but err you know, the, the conversation at the table in terms of other people leaving and looking at the children was along the lines of you know that it, and again it transpired later that I, that other people were look, you know were popping in as an extra addition to what other people were generally doing in terms of looking after the err children and err you know when Matt came back I remember him saying to somebody oh yeah I’ve looked at, you know and they’re fine you know and that was the way that the other families were, were working it. Err so, you know, apart from Russell who was away a little bit longer because you know what I’ve just explained before, everyone tended to walk up there, then walk back in a time which you would expect them to walk, walk up to the apartment and you know there was no long gaps between anything which you know wasn’t you know explained. Err, so yeah.”
1485    “Do you recall Gerry coming back from his turn and then commenting about speaking to Gez?”
Reply    “Err I, you know again, I think I do, and I know that sounds very vague but you know again, just on the context of you know what, what’s been said about the conversation with Gez and this is a very important part of the story, it’s just difficult to say what you, you know what you believe to have happened and what you’ve read has happened.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “But I, you know I do remember some, something along the lines that he’d had a conversation err with Gez but again you know if you’re chatting to someone else and you just perhaps hear something at, at the side, err or you just look up and listen to a bit and then you move onto the conversation.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Err but some, yeah.”
1485    “Do you recall Jane coming back from her trip? From her visit if you like, shortly after Gerry had come back.”
Reply    “I don’t know.”
1485    “And is there anything that sticks in your mind in relation to what anybody’s said when they’d come, apart from the one or two people saying everything’s fine, was there anything else that you can think of that anybody said anything?”
Reply    “Err I mean there was nothing you know, I mean, I mean when obviously Russell came back and explained what had gone on and you know with, with Evie, err Matt, you know, had come back and you know said everything’s fine. Err Gerry, you know I, as I say, I think he, I heard him mention that he’d spoken to someone on the way back and I’m not sure if people triggered my memory of that I could get that, that’s it. When Jane came back there was certainly nothing that she said that err you know led us to be worried at that particular stage, you know, the conversation was, was again, was you know oh Evie’s okay and it was a sort of shame that they you know, the situation there with Evie. Err and you know the, the jokes that have been going on earlier and err you know just, yeah generally nothing, nothing really stood out…”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Had happened, err there was, you know nothing.”
1485    “The fact that Jane had come back having seen a male carrying a child.”
Reply    “Mm.”
1485    “Could you introduce that within your recollection?”
Reply    “I can, err it was never mentioned at that table when she came back, err when we went, you know, looking for Madeleine after err Fiona told me that she’d, you know, mentioned this to Fiona and you know so it’s, obviously Fiona’s statement’s probably more important from this point of view exactly what she said about it.”
1485    “Yeah, yeah.”
Reply    “But I know from Fiona that this was mentioned and I think it was in the context that she was really worried saying anything to Kate to, to upset her which you know looking from, from people observing out, in at this, they’ll probably think well hang on, you think that someone’s just seen, but you know, again, it was a, a resort where there was a lot of children around err very, it’s a small friendly place and she just thought it was one of the parents who you know was perhaps, you know they’d be staying in one apartment and were transferring their child back to another apartment.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “And really didn’t think twice about it at the time and that’s why it wasn’t mentioned then. But she definitely mentioned it to me you know after Madeleine had been abducted and you know on the, the following day before she’d actually mentioned it to Kate and there was a, a newspaper report, I think it was in the Telegraph err certainly one of the newspapers anyway, that was sort of describing err Madeleine’s pyjamas and, and err Jane said that’s not right, how did they get that, well she said you know, that in, I don’t know how they get that information anyway, my recollections were this was what she was wearing and described it you know differently you know to what the, the, the press had, and that was before she’d even seen Kate so you know, the strength of that argument is just absolutely overwhelming, you know given the time frame err you know of when Madeleine must have gone, gone, that you know and for her to have described in detail the pull ups at the bottom of the pyjamas err you know the colours, you know and the timing is just, you know well, so.”
1485    “How did she describe the child to you?”
Reply    “Err, the, from, again my, my recollection was more about the, the description of the pyjamas not fitting in with the description of the newspaper and if I was to say that she was carrying the child you know like this, rather than like, like that then, you know because again this is something that we’ve talked about, you know, if she was abducted, you know, sorry if you were carrying your own child any distance, to actually carry a child like so is, it’s hard work. You know, it’s much easier to carry a child like this and it’s easier to keep them asleep and support their head etcetera. So yeah that’s something we’ve chatted about since and you know I could say oh yes I’m a hundred percent sure she said that, that they were carrying the child like that, but I, again, I wouldn’t be, be accurate. All I can say is accurately I remember there was a, the err the discrepancy with the pyjamas and that, you know, and then she kept coming back to the turn ups which you know, which is very unique about the err you know, the pyjamas so that was, you know, you’re in shock, you can’t believe what’s happened, you know, you’re, you’re ninety nine, point nine, nine, nine percent sure that this is what’s happened but you’re still not wanting to believe what’s happened.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “But you know and then you’re looking for information to, to try and fit in with what you thinks happened and then you know when, when we knew that we just thought, you know, that is it, that is who’s taken her. Err you know and again, just for the record, I mean Jane, I’ve known Jane for a few years, you know, she’s an extremely strong character, she’s you know very reliable and you know she speaks her own mind and you know, and if that’s what she has seen then you know I’m a hundred percent sure that that’s what she’s seen.”
1485    “Okay. Just in relation to, the reason why I ask you that is because Jane has saw what she’s saw and then she’s come back to the table and then you know one of the points I was trying to raise with you as well was did you notice anything different in her demeanour throughout the rest of the evening before Kate raised the alarm?”
Reply    “Err not, not really I mean, as I say my general feeling was about the problems that they were having you know, it’s difficult, you know err one of them was there and then the other one was going and err you know just the logistics of the situation, you know where I was actually sat, I wasn’t directly sat in a position that I was probably gonna chat to Jane therefore you know, the people who were immediately round me were the people more likely I’d chat to rather than chatting across, you know, quite a reasonable size table. Err so I don’t, you know I don’t really think, you know I, I noticed anything different about Jane but whether, you know, there was or there wasn’t perhaps I wasn’t in the best position there to, to comment that, as I say my recollections were more of the logistics, apart from with Evie not being well.”
1485    “Yeah. Right, and again you’ve discussed what happened once Kate had turned up and the exact words that Kate had said.”
Reply    “Mm.”
1485    “Once the alarm had been raised you said that you all got up and its, with the exception of Dianne, everybody ran to the assistance.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
1485    “Exactly what did you do?”
Reply    “Err we, you know, we ran up err to the apartment, you know, with, with err you know Kate and Gerry err and you know for me, I just wanted to know, as I say, about the access to the apartment, were those gates open, err because in my mind was that if the front door was shut there was no, you know there won’t be, you know there was no way that she could have wandered out that way and nor would they have gained access in that way. Err also obviously the, the, the issue with the, the shutters had been raised, was brought up err you know on the way up as well and then I was asking about the gates being shut at that back and she said well both gates you know were shut, so in my mind, you know, that had ruled it out that Madeleine had err had wandered off. Err you know, Madeleine’s err, you know, was a very bright child and you know it would just seem so inconceivable that she would have wandered off you know, especially you know, when she was sleepy you know, we put that argument forward, but then you know sleeping chil, sleepy children you know don’t put, shut the doors you know behind them and child gates, you know, so, so that was my initial thoughts err and again you know we, we, I’m sure we went into the apartment, just looked and you know, incredulously you know well where, err where could she be, you know, you know we just looked in the obvious err places and then err you know obviously Kate and Gerry were just completely, you know, hysterical err you know at this stage. Err and then we just, you know then we went to do the sweeps around the place and I said, as I said before, I went up to look at our apartment to check, check the girls were alright and you know, and the actual order that this all happened, you know, it’s just err a complete eye opener up for us to see you know what other unfor, unfortunate people have been through just to what a destabilising effect, you know, that circumstances has on you or, and you know I, I think most people had a, you know, idea of, pretty exactly what happened that day leaving but you know after that I think people find it really difficult generally to say exactly what they did and when. Err but as I say we went err we went to the apartment and had a look round and then err I had a look quite earlier on to see err whether the, err girls were alright. I then at some stage went back to see Dianne and say look can you just leave the table, just go back to the apartment and then I had the sweep around the swimming pool where the, err the kiddies pool is, I went to, I just had a quick look at the tennis courts and just basically swept around the, the area just to make, make sure you know that, ah this can’t, can’t be what’s happened, she must have you know, you just don’t want to weigh up that option, it just wasn’t an option that could have happened but you knew it had happened and err, and then as I say we spoke, me, Matt and Russell, right come on we’ve got to have a bit more structure to this, err you know, I’ll, I’ll you know so he went off down to the Police Station and you know, you know we waited as I say for the Police to arrive and we, our, I think it was in between them arriving or when they arrived that I then went down and did that sweep of you know, right down past  the Supermarket err going slightly to the side and then onto the front past where the church is at the bottom. I looked, you know I say I looked in all the rocks and you know just went along the whole beach shouting out and identifying people. Err the, I say, the Mark Warner people they were around there, we, you know as I say we also at a very early stage we knew it was important that we got a picture of Madeleine just to show people, whether it be local, but, but we were also imploring the err the GNR to you know close down and circulate this picture, err and that was, you know that was something that Mark Warner team helped us set up just in the, you know the Tapas bit there.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Err then we were popping in and out of the apartment err you know having conversations with Kate and Gerry and err you know they were in communication with people back home err you know Gerry was you know speaking to family, they were chatting to err Paul’s the priest who married them and Kate was chatting to her mum you know err and it was just all kicking off around really.”
1485    “You know when you went into their apartment, what was the scene like?  I mean where was Kate and Gerry?”
Reply    “Err (sighs) I mean with, with err, you know I, Kate’s obviously very good friends with err Fiona and I’m, you know, very good friends with Gerry so more likely I’d have probably been with Gerry going through the options of what happened, or you know where could she be and what, what’s gone on here. Err you know trying to work out err what had actually happened err so I, I, you know we all went up to the apartment pretty much together. I think, I don’t know what, whether the other people came in or not, I can only remember me, Fiona, Kate and Gerry predominantly and the err lady from Mark Warner err who were the main people who were in the apartment. Err yeah I certainly went into err the doorway of that, the room where all the children were staying you know and Sean and Amelie were still you know sleeping, err you know and this is something that’s, you know, we’ve all kind of discussed you know amongst all the melee that was kicking off they were just sleeping so, you know, contently. Err and then you know the other area, the other areas I remember going into Kate and Gerry’s err bedroom with Gerry and he’d perhaps you know fling a cupboard open and just have a look and, ah you know and just shut the door and you know in a vein, desperate hope that she might have been err you know in, in the wardrobe or something, and then he, you know flung him, flung himself on the floor and just you know kicking the floor and just with, you know, she’s gone, she’s gone, err and then as I say, I, I, after that I can’t really say exactly, you know. We kept meeting up at stages in the evening to, to try and appraise the situation and you know what shall we do, err.”
1485    “Did you hear Kate say to Gerry they’ve let her down?”
Reply    “Err, it’s a comment that I’ve heard her say since and you know, I can’t say that I specifically heard her say it that night. Err but you know, so many emotions are flying through your mind at that stage and you know certainly guilt was going through you know their mind, err because it, you know, everyone was like questioning themselves, you know, about you know what had happened and you know I know that she certainly was, those comments that she made along the lines of guilt for err you know, you know not being there for her, without a doubt, but specifically that phrase I wouldn’t, you know I can’t recall her saying that but again, it’s just a general underlying you know nature of what she was saying but it was along the lines that she, you know she had let her down, that you know when she, err again whether it was that night or another night she said well you know when she needed us we weren’t there for her, you know and that was, you know the general kind of things that she was implying.”
1485    “Yeah, did she say that on the night then?”
Reply    “Err I say I don’t know, I know that she said those things.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Or implied those things but I can’t tell you exactly what the phrases were that she used but you know she felt that they weren’t there for the biggest time in her life when they needed her.”
1485    “Yeah. Did Fiona tell you that Kate had told her that Madeleine had woke up the night before?”
Reply    “Yeah.”
1485    “On that night?”
Reply    “Err I’m sure Fiona did tell me that night err and said that you know she’d had a, a, you know that Madeleine had you know woke, had been crying the night before and err you know this was just, and that she’d mentioned it to her and you know do you think we should be doing anything err differently, err and you know Fiona mentioned that conversation and I’m sure, I’m pretty sure it was that night err that she brought it up. Err its, you know I, do you try and make people feel better because you think, you know, who, who in the world would have thought this would have happened to anyone, you know, it just doesn’t happen to you.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Certainly and you know the last case of a child going missing like this was you know ten years plus, you know, in Corfu, and so you know when, when your child’s been crying, whether they you know they’ve have a bad nightmare or you know they’ve, you know they’ve perhaps have had a dream and they’re crying a bit and you try and you know, and that’s what you know we were saying to Kate really, you know those were the things that go through your mind.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Rather than think ah well perhaps someone’s tried to get into the apartment, you know, but then you look back and then the enormity of what you said does, you know gain momentum. Err that’s it.”
1485    “What I’ve got here is a few questions from the PJ’S because they wanted us to ask you…”
Reply    “Yes.”
1485    “A series of questions and there may well be duplication of what you’ve said but please bare with me.”
Reply    “Okay.”
1485    “Alright?”
Reply    “Yes.”
1485    “Now you’ve answered the first one, it says what time did you return to the beach club on May the third as you were coming from the beach?”
Reply    “Right.”
1485    “So that’s where you said that you come from the restaurant.”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah we’d come from the restaurant on the beach and as I say we left there about eighteen fifteen, err at that time.”
1485    “And where did you go?”
Reply    “We went, I, I went up err went to see Gerry at the tennis courts.”
1485    “So you were at the tennis courts, who did you talk to?”
Reply    “Err just Gerry pretty much, you know, whether I made comment to anyone else I don’t remember that, just, I just remember I talked to Gerry.”
1485    “Okay, did you go to the MCCANN family apartment between six and seven? Well, yes you did.”
Reply    “Mm.”
1485    “And if yes, why? You’ve already said that. Which route did you take? You told me that. Time? You’ve told me that. Did you enter the apartment? You’ve told me that. Who did you talk to? You’ve told me that. Did you talk to Kate? You’ve told me that. Did you notice anything unusual?”
Reply    “No, definitely not. It was err pretty much what I would expect, you know, go into the apartment, there was certainly no atmosphere, there was nothing, no disquiet between the children or Kate, you know it was just very normal, just happy children playing and ready for bed.”
1485    “How long did the conversation take? Well you said between three and five minutes. Did you see the children? Well yes you did, you’ve said that, including Madeleine. What were the children doing? Well you’ve said that they were just standing around.”
Reply    “Mm, I mean they were interacting, playing a bit and you know they’re looking at me and perhaps have a, you know, but certainly…”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Behaving normally for kids at that age.”
1485    “As the person who organised this trip were you aware of the baby listening service? Well yes you were, but we discussed that a bit earlier didn’t we.”
Reply    “Yes.”
1485    “Was this available at night? Was it, could you remember what it…”
Reply    “Well the, the, the point, the, the service that they, they offered there which was different to the other Mark Warner’s was that they had a, a drop-in err centre for want of a better description err for the evening. So if you wanted to go out for a meal you would take your child down to err the, the reception, you know, there’s an area down there you know specific for that where they’d have the, the nannies who would keep an eye on your children. You could go and have something to eat and then you go and pick your child up err after. This, it comes back to pretty much, you know, we’d gone there you know with the same kind of, originally we were hoping that it would be someone knocking the door, listening at the door and everything’s quiet and then move, moving on and that’s what we’d gone with the, think it would be. I did know before I went on the holiday that that wasn’t what it was going to be but we’d gone on there adopting that that’s you know how we were gonna most likely do it, well that was one of the options anyway depending on where the apartments were and everything. Now where the, where the drop-in err crèche in the evening was, was you know it was a, you know a fair distance you know from where we were staying err you know so, you know it wasn’t certainly where you ate down there and our, our complex or our apartments was quite a bit away so it was nothing that we’d really entertain. Secondly, all the children are, are you know very young and wouldn’t, would be sleeping at that time so it wasn’t something that we wanted to use because of the children, you know we’d want them to be sleeping and we, you know they wouldn’t sleep particularly well down there and you know we thought what we were doing obviously was, you know…”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Was, was err reasonable. We were checking the children more often than, than Mark Warner would do, not only were they, it wasn’t just a listening outside the door, people were going in and checking the children so from that perspective we felt we were doing more than they normally would do. Err so from that point of view you know it, it was, you know, a bit of a, not say inconvenience isn’t the right word, but we were, you know we knew what we going, what, what it was going to be like when we got there and we thought what we were doing was, was more than adequate than a lot of the Mark Warner centres across Europe do.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “So err you know we were aware there was a crèche there but just for the reasons that I’ve just said that’s why we didn’t use it, so err you know and I know that’s something that’s been picked up in the press and obviously Mark Warner you know they want to put across that you know there, there is that option for people if they were to go to that Mark Warner resort.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “But, but you know.”
1485    “Were you aware by the way that during the course of the week that Gerry and Kate had changed their methods of entering their apartment?”
Reply    “Err I hadn’t at all, no.”
1485    “Right, the next question then from the PJ’S is, did you travel to Portugal with intercoms to monitor your children? Well you’ve said that you did.”
Reply    “Yes.”
1485    “When you travel with your children do you always use intercoms?”
Reply    “Err, I mean if we, if we were staying at somebody else’s house err you know and they were in the loft or whatever and we couldn’t hear the children crying then yes we would travel with monitors. Err you know, you know, we, our child you know Scarlet was one of the youngest children there so obviously the monitor was you know, was extremely important, you know we wanted to see if she was crying because you know she wasn’t sleeping as well as the elder child so at that, that time, monitors were very important to us and if we were going anywhere where we thought that we couldn’t hear the children then you know, if they were very young then we would use the monitors but they’re now older and the question’s perhaps not as pertinent as it was err you know eleven months ago. But you know, certainly around that time we didn’t make a habit of you know going and staying in some resort or hotel and you know stick a monitor upstairs and off we went, it was, you know, we don’t go away that frequently.”
1485    “Did you suggest an intercom to anybody else?”
Reply    “Err no I mean, I don’t, you know I, I remember having the discussion with Fi you know, Fiona, with what, what we were gonna do but I didn’t really discuss what other people were gonna do really, you know, which comes back to the bit in the line of questioning you asked me before, do you think everyone knew about what the babysitting was like, and I’m sure I would’ve said that. Err but no we didn’t discuss monitors with anybody else.”
1485    “At the apartment you stayed in with your family at the Ocean Club have you ever left the windows and doors open?”
Reply    “Of the, of the apartment?”
1485    “Of your apartment yeah.”
Reply    “Err we, well I’d like to think that every time we went out that all the doors were shut, we never knowingly left the apartment with the doors or windows open and you know, it was good having Dianne there because she’s a very good safe, safe for everything like you know she’d, you know, so not knowingly did we ever leave them and to my recollection they were never open.”
1485    “Okay.”
Reply    “You know if we were in the apartment, different, but if we left it then no.”
1485    “Okay. Okay David it’s time to get your phone out. Can I just confirm what mobile phone number you have please?”
Reply    “Yeah, its o, seven, seven, four, eight, eight, four, four, eight, three, seven. This is not the phone that I had on the night. This is a, a new phone that I’ve had since then, quite a few of the numbers I’ve transferred across.”
1485    “Right.”
Reply    “But I haven’t got all the numbers that I originally had on that phone.”
1485    “Okay. I’m gonna go through a series of numbers and I want you to have a look in your phone book and see whether you can tell me who they are.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
1485    “The first one, the phone number ends in, and I’ll just give you the last four digits.”
Reply    “Will you just hang on two secs, this is a bit, okay.”
1485    “It’s eight, seven, one, three.”
Reply    “Eight, seven, one, three… Simon ALDRIDGE.”
1485    “And who’s Simon ALDRIDGE?”
Reply    “Err he is err my, Fiona’s sister Louise WEBSTER, that’s her husband.”
1485    “And what sort of a relationship do you have with him?”
Reply    “Err a very good relationship. He is err someone that I’ve known for many years, we’ve been to their wedding, they came to our wedding, and err he’s you know a very good friend.”
1485    “Okay. Then there’s a series of one, two, three, four, five, six text messages around about six p.m. on Friday.”
Reply    “The Friday, yes, err the, these were all in relation to you know what had been happening that, that, that day basically and to get advice from Simon. Again, you know, a bit like I said with err Fiona’s err father, you know he’s someone that I trust very well who was not with us at the time who would, who could think calmly and clearly and to just ask advice about you know what was going on, what were they picking up in the UK err you know what coverage was it getting, what, what, what did they know was going on, you know, could they feed anything back, we wanted to get any information that we possibly could, you know, that was the conversation.”
1485    “Okay the next number is, ends in sixteen twenty one.”
Reply    “Sixteen twenty one… I’ve err I’ve not got that one in.”
1485    “You’ve not got that one in?”
Reply    “No.”
1485    “Again, there was a series of text messages around about the same time on the Friday the fourth. There was err two calls and then…”
Reply    “Around six o’ clock?”
1485    “Yeah, well the calls were made between eight and nine in the morning.”
Reply    “Right.”
1485    “And then there was between ten a.m. to six p.m. there’s a series of eight text messages, actually I’m lying, no I’m wrong, sorry, scrap that, there was two, there was two calls between eight and nine in the morning and then one text message, two text messages around about ten a.m.”
Reply    “Right.”
1485    “Could you have been at the Police Station that, the following day around about that time?”
Reply    “I mean we didn’t leave the Police Station the following day until about eleven o’ clock so that, I mean if they were ten a.m. then that would have been before.”
1485    “But that number’s not in your book at all?”
Reply    “No, as I say whether it’s just because it’s not one I’ve transferred across, because I’ve not got all of the numbers in this phone that I’ve got in my other one. I, I mean I can certainly get those for you.”
1485    “You may well have to actually.”
Reply    “Yeah okay.”
1485    “The next number ends in eight, seven, one, three. Sorry, that’s Simon again, sorry.”
Reply    “Okay.”
1485    “And again there was quite a number of text messages, so you text him again.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
1485    “Its okay, they’ve put it in the saved box here.”
Reply    “Oh right, so it’s the same?”
1485    “The same yeah. Okay, we’ll move on, this is a small number and it, it is nine, one, seven, two, two, four, one, zero, six.”
Reply    “So that’s a local number?”
1485    “I think…”
Reply    “Yeah, I mean err it may well have been Simon ALDRIDGE gave us a contact of someone that was a friend of the family in Portugal who err could get us mobile phones because Kate and Gerry you know hadn’t got any contact, you know way of contacting, their batteries were running out or something like that so Simon ALDRIDGE had basically said err you know there’s, there’s these people that we know there and you know that could have been it.”
1485    “Or, because then there were two text messages sent about half past, about ten o’ clock on the Friday evening to that number.”
Reply    “Oh to that number, well that wouldn’t make sense.”
1485    “No.”
Reply    “Err…”
1485    “From that number to your number.”
Reply    “Oh, it could have been then, if they text me saying oh I hope everything’s alright, you’ve got the phones and everything, that’s the only thing.”
1485    “Okay, next number I’d like you to look for please David is seven, seven, four, three.”
Reply    “That’s gonna be my sister’s… Seven, seven, four, three?”
1485    “Seven, seven, four, three yeah. It starts with, it’s four…”
Reply    “Is it o, one, seven.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “O, one, seven, o, six?”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Yeah it’s my mum’s number.”
1485    “What town is that?”
Reply    “What town is that? Err Rochdale.”
1485    “Rochdale?”
Reply    “Yeah, in Manchester.”
1485    “And again, there was a series of calls which are self explanatory I suppose.”
Reply    “Mm, yeah.”
1485    “The next number could well be another relative but I’ll check with you anyway, it’s o, one, eight, five, eight…”
Reply    “Yeah my sister’s.”
1485    “Your sister’s?”
Reply    “Yeah, that’s Market Harborough.”
1485    “Next number is a, I think it’s a London number, it’s o, two, o, seven, and it ends in twenty sixty one.”
Reply    “Twenty sixty one? Can we just ring it? (Laughs).”
1485    “(Laughs).”
Reply    “No. What time was that sorry that that was…”
1485    “It’s about, it’s quarter past eleven or twenty three thirteen on the fourth on the Friday night.”
Reply    “At night?”
1485    “Yeah. So my, my recollection of o, two, o, seven is a London number if that helps.”
Reply    “Yeah, I’ll just have a little look. I, I can’t remember, I’ve got friends that are down in London which I haven’t got her number in here, whether she saw it and rang it I don’t know. Was it a long, long call or?”
1485    “Err, yeah it was quite a long call.”
Reply    “Right, okay.”
1485    “But you actually called the number.”
Reply    “Yeah, okay.”
1485    “Okay, the next number is, it’s a mobile number and it ends in seven, zero, four, six.”
Reply    “Mobile number seven, zero, four, six?”
1485    “Yeah, yeah. O treble seven, and it ends in seven, zero, four, six.”
Reply    “Err, o treble seven, nine, two, eight, seven, o, four, six?”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Lisa LACARNIE, whose a, you know, a friend of the family’s.”
1485    “And what was the nature of the, it was a text message at quarter past eight, err quarter past six on the fourth.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
1485    “Sent, I think it was sent from them to you.”
Reply    “Yeah, it would have been oh yeah, seen, seen what’s happened out there, are you okay, you know I presume.”
1485    “Okay the final one is, well it ends in three, one, two, three.”
Reply    “Three, one, two, three… The other thing is, is that err Fiona was using my phone out there, she hadn’t got her phone with her so some of these calls may be…”
1485    “This one’s a call.”
Reply    “But if she got the number and the put it in, she might know what it is, but yeah.”
1485    “Yeah, yeah I accept that.”
Reply    “Three, one, two, three. Sorry three, one, two, three was it?”
1485    “Three, yeah, three, one, two, three.”
Reply    “Let’s have another look, no I don’t think I’ve got that one.”
1485    “Okay.”
Reply    “It’s quite close together all this to all this, but no I can’t see that one.”
1485    “Alright, okay well that’s the end of the phone traffic, one fin, one question or one person I’d like to speak to you about is Yvonne MARTIN. Do you know a person called Yvonne MARTIN?”
Reply    “Yvonne MARTIN?”
1485    “Social Worker.”
Reply    “Right. Oh, okay, err there was a lady who was there on the err when me, when me and Kate were waiting on the err morning you know after Madeleine had disappeared err there was err a photographer who was living in the area who err approached us and was just saying ah I used to work for the Daily Mirror, he gave his card and then this woman came up and started err chatting to us who err essentially just said ah I’ve got many years of experience you know and just started to really try and again force their selves in the situation a bit rather than just saying look I’m around if you need me err you know, so basically I just said it wasn’t you know appropriate at the time, could she leave us alone and err but I must admit I didn’t know what her, that was you know, that was, and she was, you know she said she was trained for many years as a Social Worker and was out there now err and was offering her help, but not in a particularly helpful way and she appeared you know, and that was on the you know the morning, I don’t know somewhere perhaps between nine and ten o’ clock in the morning. Err you know I’m sure, sure she’d been at, you know, she popped in there and you know she was around the area, she was seen again, but I mean I didn’t have any more contact with her then but at the time it wasn’t particularly helpful. Err I can’t really say any more than that.”
1485    “Did you know her before that meeting?”
Reply    “Err no.”
1485    “Did you speak to the MCCANN’S about it?”
Reply    “Err we, yeah we spoke in the context of you know that was completely inappropriate the way that she was trying to deal with it, it’s like she was trying to council Kate there and then in the thick of, you know, they’re still trying to establish what’s going on and what was happening err so you know I spoke to, you know I’m sure I mentioned her to Kate and Gerry you know within a short space of time, you know within twenty four hours of it happening. Err you know, just an example I, you know I was with Kate for quite a number of hours where I was sat with her at the err Police Station in Portimão and everything and you know weeks later she said who was I sat with, you know, and it was that, its that kind of thing you know I’m sure you know I spoke to them about it there and then within twenty four hours but err you know nothing was really mentioned a great deal about her later on or you know it was the, the, you know pretty much you know the conversation was dealt, you know dealt with it there and then and it wasn’t, you know, perhaps I mentioned it to the others saying you know and if she popped up here and there you know other people might have mentioned her but she wasn’t something that kind of like was the focus of the conversations that we had subsequently.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Err for that morning.”
1485    “Did you advise the MCCANN’S to turn to her?”
Reply    “Not at all, no.”
1485    “Not at all?”
Reply    “Not at all. She was someone I’d certainly say to, to keep clear of you know and I, and I think pretty much I was saying look you know, appreciate your concern at this stage but you know it’s not the right time to be talking to her, if you want to leave a card then you know perhaps there might be a time in the future but you know can you just leave us please, and that was you know the basics of the conversation that I had with her. Err you know her timing was just completely off, err you know there was, I say there was someone else who visited on the night that she was abducted, I think she was from the upstairs and she was again you know trying to say there, there Kate, you’re alright, and again it was just completely inappropriate timing.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “I didn’t think there was anything sinister about it I just thought it was people who didn’t really perhaps have an insight into you know what has gone on and what was good timing and what wasn’t. I never really thought anything much more about either of them.”
1485    “Okay, there’s no more questions at this stage.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
1485    “What I’m gonna do is I’m gonna take a short break, just take a bit of a coffee break.”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah.”
1485    “And then come straight back in with Gerry and Kate’s questions.”
Reply    “Right.”
1485    “Alright?”
Reply    “Yeah, okay.”
1485    “Just before I finish, what we’ve been talking about on this section of the interview, is there anything that you feel you want to add that may be pertinent to the investigation?”
Reply    “Again, just to you know summarise in that you know not many people find themselves in a situation like that and the way that Kate and Gerry were, there was nothing to suggest that there had been any foul play. They behaved so much as I would expect someone in the situation they were in and the way that their moods had changed from you know complete calm and serenity and enjoyment, just turned completely to you know distraught and you know that wasn’t acting, that wasn’t anyone, that was just pure grief of the situation that they found themselves in.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “And you know and the change was like that, it wasn’t you know, err I don’t think there’s anything else I’d like to add at this stage.”
1485    “Okay that’s fine, okay. It’s two fifty nine, or fourteen fifty nine and I’ll stop now
The interview ceased at 1459 hours when the tape recorder was switched off.

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