Duarte Levy..

Freelance journalist

Jane Tanner – Record Of Tape Recorded Interview II

4078    “Right it is now twenty eight minutes past ten on the eighth of April obviously we were interviewing before and the fire alarm went off.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “Just to reiterate I’m DC Sophie FERGUSON from the Major Crime Unit in Leicestershire. And you are?”
Reply    “Jane Michelle TANNER.”
4078    “Thanks Jane, and as before, just say if you want a break, you’re here voluntarily.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “So it’s up to you what you do.”
Reply    “That’s fine, yeah.”
4078    “We’ve been covering how you knew the MCCANN’S.”
Reply    “Mm.”

4078    “The journey from England to Portugal and we’ve just got to the point where you’ve been allocated your apartment.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “In Praia Da Luz.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “And I think I asked when the rest of the group arrived.”
Reply    “Yeah, I think it was about an hour and a half, an hour and a half, two hours after, after we’d arrived. I think we’d just been to the Supermarket and just had a wander around and they, and then they pulled up outside the apartments and they were brought up in one of the actual Mark Warner minibuses, I think they were taken to the reception first and then brought up.”
4078    “Right. How did you arrange that you were going to meet up?”
Reply    “Err I don’t think we did, we had actually requested that we had apartments close together, that was one of the things we’d asked when we’d booked so I think we were just hoping that would be the case and if not we had the mobile phone, so we knew vaguely what time their flight was due.”
4078    “Can we just cover that then there you’d arranged to have apartments close together, what was the reasoning behind that?”
Reply    “Err I think just so that, we didn’t want to be sort of right at different ends of the resort because we knew that we were going on holiday together, and we thought with this with a Mark Warner you know would it be better going to a villa so that you know we could, we could talk to each other and be close together so we didn’t want to be at other ends, other ends of the resort.”
4078    “Okay. Where was your apartment in relation to Kate and Gerry’s?”
Reply    “Err so it was A, B, there was an empty one, I think it was empty, in between and we were here, so we were D.”
4078    “Okay. On the ground floor?”
Reply    “On the ground floor, yeah.”
4078    “Okay so tell me what you did then from the time that you’d been shopping and everyone else had arrived.”
Reply    “Mm.”
4078    “What happened from then as far as you can remember?”
Reply    “Err it’s so long ago but I think they all arrived, they obviously went to their apartments, I think we went up to Dave and Fi’s apartment which was on the second floor because theirs was the biggest, theirs was sort of the biggest apartment of the ones that we had so we went up there and then later I think there was like a welcome meeting when they talk about you know all the things there are to do. I think that was sort of about four o’ clock down in the, it was actually in the tapas restaurant where they did that welcome meeting so I think we went down to that, to that afterwards, but I can’t, I can’t remember what we did specifically in the time in between. I think we just had something to eat and just I think we were in Dave and Fi’s apartment, but.
4078    “Okay, well I know we spoke on the journey here this morning and you were saying that you’d do your best to remember but you were worried that, because you didn’t know what your true recollections were…”
Reply    “Mm.”
4078    “Anymore, because of the amount of discussion there’s been.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “And stuff that you’ve read.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “And heard other people say. Well don’t worry we can’t change that now.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “And you know it is only what you can remember to the best of your ability.”
Reply    “Yeah I’m just conscious, I don’t want to remember something that didn’t happen and then that would be seen as oh that wasn’t what you said last time.”
4078    “No it’s not a test, you know.”
Reply    “I mean obviously this is…”
4078    “I’m not trying to trip you up.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “It’s just to try go, and just go back as far as we can.”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah.”
4078    “So you know if you can’t remember and I’ve asked a question and you think…”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “I don’t know now, just say I don’t know now.”
Reply    “Okay.”
4078    “It doesn’t matter at all and equally if you’re sort of saying yeah I think that might have happened but that might only be because somebody’s told me that.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “So just clarify that.”
Reply    “Yeah, no I will do, yeah.”
4078    “Right. You say you sort of just, as far as you can remember, you went to the welcome meeting.”
Reply    “Yeah, and I think that was about four o’ clock because there was one for the childcare bit of it and then after that they had one for the other activities, so we were there for sort of quite a while.”
4078    “What were your intentions for the holiday at that stage?”
Reply    “In terms of?”
4078    “How many activities you would be doing and what the children would be doing.”
Reply    “Ah right, err we didn’t really think, I think we thought Ella would definitely be going to the kids club because as I explained before I almost felt bad that she wasn’t getting that much kid attention in Exeter. Err and Evie probably go to the kids club in the morning but then stay with us, stay with us in the afternoon and that morning would give, well me a break you know to do, to do something else but at that point I hadn’t really, I hadn’t really thought about what that would be or, you know, whatever.”
4078    “So during the welcome meeting did you have to sign up to anything regular or was it just available if you want it?”
Reply    “Err, you signed up then and that’s when I signed up for the tennis which I hadn’t really been planning to do but then I think Kate was signing up for that and then I just thought yeah that’d be a, that’d be a nice, you know, something nice to do.”
4078    “Was that an event that was going to happen every morning?”
Reply    “Yeah that was a tennis lesson every morning, I think it was at, I think it was nine o’ clock but it might have been nine thirty but it was every morning until the end of the week.”
4078    “Was there anything else that you signed up for?”
Reply    “Err I signed up for, actually I think, thinking about it I think I signed up for the tennis later, no, yeah I did I signed up for the tennis later and I did a taster session because at that first welcome meeting I signed up for windsurfing and sailing because I was like I’ve got some time to do stuff so it was always like we had, you know, I thought, so I signed up for the windsurfing and the sailing but then later on they did a sort of a social tennis and that’s when I decided okay, right, I’ll do the tennis instead.”
4078    “Something’s got to give.”
Reply    “Yeah, so, it’s supposed to be a holiday, so yeah then I didn’t do the sailing then.”
4078    “Okay, I shan’t ask you all about Russell because he’ll be covering that on his interview anyway.”
Reply    “Mm.”
4078    “Do you remember where you ate on that first day?”
Reply    “The Millennium, the Millennium Restaurant.”
4078    “Okay, and tell me what you can remember about that.”
Reply    “Err well we all went together with all the children, I think we caused a bit of chaos when we first arrived though because we were trying to put, there was obviously quite a lot of us and they were trying to put all the tables together and get high chairs for the children so yeah they probably thought oh no who’s arrived sort of thing. So err yeah and it was, it worked well, I think the kids had started to get a bit cranky purely because, especially like well they’d been up since like, I think we were up at like five in the morning to get the flight so, but I can’t remember anybody feeling particularly cranky but I think they were. They were obviously getting quite tired at that stage.”
4078    “And how busy was the resort? Because I’ve not been there at that time of year.”
Reply    “Not that busy really, I think it was one of the first, it was one of the first weeks that it had been open in terms of the Mark Warner side of it, so it wasn’t, there was, I don’t think there was, there was probably four or five other tables in the Millennium, maybe a few more, but not many.”
4078    “So you formed the majority of the guests there?”
Reply    “I think yeah I mean I think people would’ve seen us just purely because we made so much hassle by trying to put the tables together and you know there was, yeah, there was, I’m trying to think now, there were other people there but it wasn’t full by , by any means.”
4078    “And when you’d had your meal, what did you do after that?”
Reply    “I think we all, we all went back and we sort of half said oh, you know, shall we meet up later or you know just sort of, but we, no, I mean we just sort of went to bed so I think it was because Matt at that point I think, I don’t know whether Matt was feeling ill by that point but Matt was actually ill that first night so I don’t know whether he was feeling ill at that point but I know  we just said ah let’s, we’re too tired you know we’ll just go straight to bed.”
4078    “Okay, so that was the Saturday wasn’t it, when you got there?”
Reply    “Mm.”
4078    “So that’s the Saturday covered.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “Is there anything that we’ve missed out from the Saturday that you can remember that I haven’t asked?”
Reply    “Err, no I don’t think so, no.”
4078    “Okay. I know you’re going to find this hard, particularly because you know between the Sunday and the Wednesday…”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “And the events weren’t significant really were they so it’s going to be even harder for you to remember.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “But we’ll try and cover those as best we can.”
Reply    “Okay.”
4078    “If I just start by the Sunday and ask you what you can remember about it.”
Reply    “Yeah I think that first Sunday Ella didn’t go to the kids club straight away purely because it’s the first day there and obviously because she had been poorly the week before we thought we’d just see how she, how she is you know before she goes, so she didn’t go, she didn’t go to the kids club. I can’t remember if Evie did, I think she probably did, I mean I can’t see any reason why she wouldn’t have done so I think she probably went to the kids club in the morning err I honestly can’t remember what we did that morning. I don’t know, I don’t think, I think the tennis lesson, I can’t remember whether the tennis lesson started that day or the next day but err so I think, no I can’t remember apart from the fact I know Ella didn’t go, so I presume we stayed with Ella or either Russell or myself you know stayed with Ella by the pool because there’s like a park area by the pool, so.”
4078    “Do you remember what eating arrangements you had that day?”
Reply    “We went, that was the first day that we went to the, the Tapas bar.”
4078    “And when was it decided that you’d be going there?”
Reply    “Err I think at the welcome meeting they err the welcome meeting they said about the different eating arrangements and I think at that stage we thought oh it’d be good to eat there because we could err monitor the children err so and I think we tried to book it so that morning when we got up, I don’t know who booked it that first day, but somebody went.”
4078    “But not Russell?”
Reply    “But it wouldn’t have been Russell, no, definitely wouldn’t have been Russell. He err whoever booked it I think went either before we went to breakfast or straight after breakfast because you have to try and book it quite early in the morning to get in.”
4078    “And was it something you’d have to do daily, or is that an ongoing arrangement?”
Reply    “Well normally you would have to but I think Rachael spoke to them on the second or third day and somehow managed to persuade them to let us go there, let us go there every night, so, I don’t know. I think, I’m sure it was Rachael that did that, not Russell.”
4078    “You mentioned breakfast.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “Am I right in thinking you went to the Millennium?”
Reply    “We went to the Millennium for breakfast yeah. I think that first morning on the Sunday everybody, the whole group went that first, well I’m not sure if Dave and Fi did but I know Kate and Gerry went that first morning to the Millennium Restaurant and I think they found it quite a, a trail to get because they’d got three kids, the ones that were two, they were carrying the twins and dragging Madeleine so I think then after that they decided they’d have breakfast in their room after their first day because it was a bit of a, not an ordeal, but it was a bit of a trek to get back.”
4078    “Ah it is, the children to get out of bed in the morning.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “Then you want your breakfast.”
Reply    “Yeah, so, but I think that first day we did all go so I can’t say for sure for Dave and Fi, but…”
4078    “Okay.”
Reply    “The rest of us definitely did.”
4078    “So you can remember having your breakfast at the Millennium.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “And err you’re not sure about tennis. You think Ella was with you…”
Reply    “Ella definitely didn’t go kids club that first, that first morning.”
4078    “And it was the first time you ate at the Tapas?”
Reply    “Yes.”
4078    “Okay, since it was the first time, if you take your mind back to the first time you went there, what had happened before you went, how had the, you know, while driving that it, what were the arrangements for the children before you went?”
Reply    “Yeah, well this is where I worry that I alerted somebody to maybe what we were doing because I actually went down, before we went down I went down with my monitor to check if it was working because Dave and Fi had a monitor which was quite a good one, a very high spec monitor, whereas ours wasn’t such high spec so I was worried that it wouldn’t work in the Tapas bar.”
4078    “Wasn’t the cups and string was it.”
Reply    “Not quite that bad err so I actually did before we went down to eat err we actually, I actually went down, just stood in the restaurant with the monitor just to check that it did and it was on the edge of its, you know, it worked but not, I wasn’t completely confident in, totally confident in it. So as I say looking back on it now you think oh, I did that, could that have actually shown somebody what we were doing, you know, me standing there like an idiot with my bloody monitor, you know, that sort of, that has crossed my mind since but I think we decided before we went, one of the attractions of a Mark Warner holiday was the baby listening service that they normally offer.”
4078    “Yeah.”
Reply    “And we did know that they didn’t offer it, offer it there and we sort of thought, at that point we thought we can either do it between ourselves and one night one couple you know stay back and then do the baby listening or, but then when we found where we were and the proximity to the restaurant we just sort of thought if we are checking and doing the baby listening as is done in other Mark Warner resorts we should be okay, which it obviously wasn’t, but that was, that was the thought process behind it.”
4078    “Yeah, and some of these things I know will come on to what you’ve got to say later on with hindsight.”
Reply    “Yeah, oh with hindsight it’s…”
4078    “You’re going to feel differently. And I know that, because I’ve spoken to you before, you feel guilty sometimes about…”
Reply    “Of course.”
4078    “What happened.”
Reply    “Of course yeah totally, and you’d look back now and think yes probably we were stupid but I think we were lulled into a false sense of security because this baby listening service is offered in other places and yeah you look at it now knowing what happened and you’d think ah yes you know we were probably reckless but it didn’t feel like that because this is a service that is offered, you know, marketed as a service in other resorts and we felt we were doing more than is maybe offered there.”
4078    “And your judgement at the time you considered that you’d be able to cover the, you checking on the children from the proximity of the restaurant?”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah.”
4078    “And you felt okay with what…”
Reply    “I think with that plus the monitor that we had I think we just thought yes it’s fine and I think you know your own children, again, we were proved wrong because Evie did wake up but they tend to, they sleep well, if they wake up it tends to be in the middle of the night, not early on, you know. And things like that you just, we were just weighing it up and it seemed a reasonable risk, well I did think of it as a reasonable risk then it just, we thought it would be fine.”
4078    “Because I know, I mean so many things are different with hindsight.”
Reply    “Oh yeah.”
4078    “And this is not to make you…”
Reply    “No, no, no I think it’s important to…”
4078    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Because you know we’ve obviously got this image that we were like ah, ‘F’ the kids, we’ll go off to the Tapas bar they’ll be fine, and it wasn’t like that at all. It was a, you know, it was something that is offered elsewhere and we just thought, you don’t imagine in a million years that, I mean we were probably more worried about them waking up and thinking where are we.”
4078    “Yeah.”
Reply    “But I mean Ella knows to shout down the monitor if, because she’s used them at home you know, so, and you just think, I don’t know, at that point I was, it never crossed my mind that somebody could take them, that wasn’t even a concern. It was more would they wake up, you know, and that was…”
4078    “And if they did then you would be alerted to that and you would be there within minutes.”
Reply    “And the door, they couldn’t get out, we made sure they couldn’t, well from the point of Ella you know we made sure she couldn’t err not escape, because that sounds terrible, but you know she, the door was dead locked so she couldn’t have, she couldn’t have wandered off so I mean obviously there’s harm, you could say she could have done herself harm in the apartment anyway but from our own view of knowing Ella we thought you know she couldn’t, couldn’t come to any harm, and Evie was in her cot so couldn’t get out the cot, so.”
4078    “Yeah, that’s what her bed was. So Ella was in the bed and…”
Reply    “Ella was in her bed.”
4078    “And Evie was in the cot.”
Reply    “Evie was in the cot yeah.”
4078    “And what was, if you were to go in through the, well I know we’ve discussed this in the office and it’s difficult to say the front door or the back door of the apartment because there’s some confusion.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “If we were to say poolside and roadside, would that make it clearer as to what I was referring to?”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah.”
4078    “Which, which entrance did you use mostly?”
Reply    “For checking or for anything?”
4078    “For anything. Was there a check, that you’d use mostly?”
Reply    “Err the back, the roadside entrance because you couldn’t actually get in to the err the poolside entrance but there was no key to get in from the outside so you could only get in there if it was unlocked. It was sort of like a, you know like patio doors have a…”
4078    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Thing that goes up and down.”
4078    “Oh right.”
Reply    “So the only time we’d have probably used the back, the poolside entrance is during the day if somebody else was in there already.”
4078    “Okay, so when you went out for your meal…”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “In the evening, the poolside door was always locked in your apartment.”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah.”
4078    “So when you did your treks you had to go in through the roadside?”
Reply    “Back, yeah through the back door.”
4078    “Was that a longer journey?”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “Having not been there I’m just imagining.”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah it is longer.”
4078    “And how long would it take you to walk from the Tapas to your apartment?”
Reply    “Err I don’t know, a minute and a half, yeah about a minute and a half.”
4078    “Not long at all?”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah, no it’s plenty, I mean no longer than I’d say two, no I don’t even think it would be two minutes, a minute.”
4078    “And did you leave your roadside door locked or was it unlocked?”
Reply    “Yes, yeah well we made, as I said we made sure that was because you could dead lock it as well and that was one of our concerns was Ella waking up and wandering, I mean like I say we didn’t think she would but that was probably our, you know so she couldn’t get out the actual apartment, that was err so we did make sure that was dead locked every night.”
4078    “Was your apartment the same layout as the MCCANN’S or was it slightly different?”
Reply    “Err I think it was the same more or less.”
4078    “Okay. Can you just have a quick look at that and just in your own mind if you’re happy that it’s similar.”
Reply    “Yeah that’s almost exact, almost exactly the same.”
4078    “So you, when you went back to check for them you’ve gone through…”
Reply    “This one here.”
4078    “That door there?”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “And then sort of first right into the children’s bedroom?”
Reply    “Yeah they were in the same room.”
4078    “And how did you get into the habit, what habit did you get into of leaving either of the shutters or the windows shut…”
Reply    “We never opened those shutters at all the whole time we were there because it was great because it made the room really dark so it was good for them sleeping.”
4078    “Mm.”
Reply    “And we didn’t use that room in the day so I don’t think we ever, well I certainly never even, never opened them or shut them.”
4078    “Okay. Just, one I’m sort of trying to familiarise myself on how things were.”
Reply    “Mm.”
4078    “What was the weather like when you were there?”
Reply    “It wasn’t, again it wasn’t brilliant, I think it was nicer in the UK.”
4078    “So you went on the wrong day.”
Reply    “Yeah, I think err so it wasn’t, that’s one reason why we didn’t open the shutters to open the window or anything in that room, it wasn’t actually really hot at all, it was actually quite cloudy in the days and at night it was actually quite chilly.”
4078    “So it wasn’t sort of going in the pool weather or, only if you’re very brave.”
Reply    “No it was really, really cold, I mean I think Russell went in because he’s a nutter and goes in the Atlantic in February but no it was more, after, it got warmer after so we did go in the pool after May the third but no before that I don’t think we, maybe we’d been in once and then decided it was a bad idea.”
4078    “Okay. So where have we got to then, we were talking about the first meal that you went into the Tapas, and so we’ve covered what arrangements were in place, in your own mind what, you know you felt happy and you’d thought about the possibilities of the children waking up but you’d kind of covered that because of the monitor…”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “And you knew that they would be safe within the apartment because they wouldn’t be able to wander out.”
Reply    “Mm.”
4078    “Okay. Can you remember much about that first meal?”
Reply    “Err no, to be honest, no, nothing specific at all really. I think, again, in hindsight stupidly but I think we thought ah this works, this works quite well you know it does, it’s quite a good way of, it means we can have some you know time in the evening and at that point we felt happy that we were doing enough for the children.”
4078    “Do you remember if everybody was present in that first meal?”
Reply    “Everybody was except Matt, who had, I think it was, oh no it was, err again I’m not sure now whether Matt was not there on the Millennium night or the first Tapas night but I think it was the first Tapas night because he’d got some sort of bug which then went round quite a few of the others. But err yeah I think it was Matt, might, wasn’t there, so it was either that night or the Millennium night, but.”
4078    “Okay. Up until this point then, Sunday evening this would be, had there been a kind of discussion between the group about child care or was it something that just sort of happened as you went along?”
Reply    “Err…”
4078    “The reason I ask is because I’m aware that later on in the group people started to take it in turns to check other people’s children.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “How did that come about?”
Reply    “I think we just probably became more comfortable with the arrangements and it was sort of like a pop your head in if you, I think the first night I think we were all checking our own but as we became more comfortable with it, it was if one person was going back they would listen, listen you know at the door as well so, I don’t think, it wasn’t a, I don’t think it was a specific decision right now we all stopped, we’ll start checking on each other’s children, it was just a you know, you’re going back, you know, have a, have a listen as well.”
4078    “And was there any kind of set time that you started…”
Reply    “Yeah we did try to do it every half an hour and I’d say out of everybody Kate and Gerry were the, the most strict on that, they were, we almost took them as the lead at times for when we, you know when we checked because they were definitely, you know were definitely every half an hour whereas we were the same, we probably did it at course, you know we probably do it because we tend to get to there at different times but err but you know I think it was more or less, more or less every, every half an hour.”
4078    “I don’t want to run the risk of grouping all the meals at Tapas as one.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “In general, I’ve generalised it, so I’ll try and stick to the Monday and the Tuesday and the Wednesday if that’s okay?”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “On Sunday evening then do you remember what kind of time you went back?”
Reply    “I don’t think it was that late because, because we’d been going all day I think we were still quite tired from the, the err the getting up early the day before.”
4078    “Yeah.”
Reply    “So I’d say it’d probably be about ten, half ten.”
4078    “Okay. And what do you remember about the Monday?”
Reply    “I definitely had a tennis lesson that day and I think Ella went to the kids club that day because she was sort of saying why couldn’t she, she was wanting to go at that point, err so yeah they both, both of the girls went to the kids club, Evie only in the morning but I think Ella probably did go both, you know both sessions so the morning then came back to us for lunch and then…”
4078    “Did Evie only go in the mornings?”
Reply    “She only ever went in the mornings yeah but there was a couple of days she didn’t go, which we’ll come to.”
4078    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Err will come later but err yeah so they would have gone there, I’d have probably had, I think it was probably, it probably was the first tennis lesson, or it could have been the second I’m not sure so that would have been from nine till half ten or whenever.”
4078    “Mm.”
Reply    “And I think from that I then went to windsurfing because I’d already booked in to that so it was like straight from that so we went down to the beach and then came back from that and then picked the children up about, I think it’s half twelve you have to pick them up and had lunch. I don’t know where we had lunch but we often tended to have lunch in err Dave and Fi’s room, again because it was a bigger room and we just tended to congregate there.”
4078    “Did everybody do that?”
Reply    “They did but apart from Kate and Gerry often had it in their own, their own apartment, err I don’t know whether they ever came, I don’t think they ever, I think they tended to have lunch, lunch in their own apartment but their, Sean and Amelie tended to go back to the kids club in the afternoon whereas err the rest of us, because they were younger they didn’t, so.”
4078    “What’s, what, how do they compare in age to Evie?”
Reply    “Err they were three in February and Evie’s three in September so, a bit of maths, they’re about six, seven months older.”
4078    “Yeah (inaudible).”
Reply    “Yeah, about six, seven months older.”
4078    “Right, okay, so on the Monday you tennis’ed, windsurfed, picked up Evie.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “And Ella.”
Reply    “Yeah for lunch. I think Ella went back, I can’t say for sure but I think Ella went back in the afternoon. Err then I think we just took Evie down by the pool, we didn’t go in but we just sort of sat, sat, sat by the pool in the afternoon.”
4078    “Okay, you mentioned when you were talking about your tennis lessons that Kate signed up for it as well.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “Did anybody else from the group go with you?”
Reply    “Rachael, and Rachael as well.”
4078    “So would it have been the three of you every morning on your own or were there other people around?”
Reply    “No there was other people with us, I think there was six of us.”
4078    “Okay. So Monday afternoon you were sitting by the pool and the playing area was near there. Can you remember what else happened on the Monday?”
Reply    “No, no I don’t, I don’t, I think they, well I think we were in there and then we took the children, they go, you can give the children tea, they do like a tea and I think that was at five so we’d have, I think we were just round there. We took Evie back up because if they stay in the kids club the nannies bring them for tea and then you can pick them up from tea but because Evie wasn’t in we went and took Evie, and I think we actually went and picked Ella up that day, other days the nannies walked them up from the other one but I think we actually went to pick Ella up and took her to tea but again that might not be, that might not be correct, but.”
4078    “And would the whole of the group be in there at tea?”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “Is that the adults as well or just the, just one of the adults from each group?”
Reply    “Err I think for a start it was all the adults and then maybe later in the week there would be just one of them but I think on the whole it was most of us, it’s quite a nice and sociable tea.”
4078    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Because that’s probably when you got to talk to other, other people as well.”
4078    “So it’s kind of a focal point in the day really…”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “Where you can all get together.”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah.”
4078    “And how long would the tea process last?”
Reply    “Probably about forty five minutes, half an hour, forty five minutes.”
4078    “That’s long enough for children at that time.”
Reply    “Exactly, yeah.”
4078    “That used to be my worst time of day when mine were younger.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “It’s a long evening (inaudible).”
Reply    “It’s the witching hour.”
4078    “Okay, so the Monday then you probably would have gone to the Millennium bar with all the children for tea. Was it the Millennium?”
Reply    “No it was that was the Sat…”
4078    “Tapas?”
Reply    “No well they had their tea, so on the Monday they had their tea which is in the Tapas bar.”
4078    “Tapas bar (inaudible).”
Reply    “And then after they’d had their tea we always tend to take them to the play area, we’d sort of go to the play area and have a run around, you know, after tea and that’s when everybody would probably be, you know, we’d all get together after the day.”
4078    “And how warm would it be by that time of the day?”
Reply    “Err I’m trying to remember it was quite, cardigan weather, I mean not, it wasn’t you know it was by no means warm, it was probably sort of cardigan weather by, by that stage, or, or I’m trying to remember if it varied I think there was a couple of nice days but there was definitely a couple of days when it was really cloudy and quite, you know, quite chilly for what you’d expect. Because I remember reading in the paper or somebody saying in England it’s really warm and we’re thinking, hmm (inaudible).”
4078    “Okay. So from the children’s tea at the Tapas you’ve gone back to the play area and this happened most days.”
Reply    “Yeah, that was most, yeah.”
4078    “And this particular Monday might have been the first time that Matthew had been to the Tapas bar if he was poorly on the Sunday night.”
Reply    “Yeah and if not it was the first night, it was the night he was away from the table.”
4078    “Right, okay. So with that in mind then can you remember the meal that night at all, at the Tapas?”
Reply    “Not really in relation to any of the others, no I mean it was just the same, the same, you know that’s really, I can’t remember who else was in there. Most nights we tended to be a bit later than a lot of people who probably go a bit earlier and they’d be going back so we often found that we’d be the last ones in there.”
4078    “As in the group?”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “Or just you and Russell?”
Reply    “No, no the group, I think we sort of had a, tried, well the table was booked for half eight I think whereas a lot of people I think sort of went half seven, eight o’ clock.”
4078    “And, this is probably a silly question but on the evenings where you had the meals what sort of conversations were being had?”
Reply    “Pfft…”
4078    “Wide ranging ones?”
Reply    “Yeah just normal ones, yeah so I mean the nice, I say we moved away so it was nice to be able to catch up you know but there was nothing I suppose with a bunch of Doctors there’s probably quite a lot of work talk from them in some ways but err no I can’t, nothing, I think more or less what we’d been doing in the day, what we’d been doing you know about our move to Exeter, probably at that stage in the week we were probably talking about our move to Exeter quite a bit because obviously you know we’re catching up on that.”
4078    “And did you relationships change at all with your friends over those few days, before Madeleine went missing?”
Reply    “Mm.”
4078    “Did you forge a stronger relationship for example with Kate and Gerry (inaudible)?”
Reply    “Yeah definitely, yeah I think definitely and especially with the tennis lessons with Kate as well, definitely because I think before we went you know they were the two people in the group that, for me, I knew we’d get on with Dave and Fiona, I knew we’d get on well with Matt and Rachael just because you know they’re sort of probably our best friends so to speak so, but yeah and err it was nice to be able to get to know Kate and Gerry, Kate and Gerry better?”
4078    “Okay. And what did you think of them at that stage?”
Reply    “Yeah they were nice, normal people, yeah you know, sort of, that’s the thing, I mean Gerry, the sort of person Gerry is, I could never see us being best buddies because he’s very, we’re very different. I think he’s very err he’s quite forthright and so I don’t think we’d ever be best friends but there’s no problem there or anything like that you know, I feel bad saying that because it makes it sound like there is a problem but there’s not but you know it’s not, whereas Kate I was really, I was getting to know Kate quite well but yeah I think Gerry is sort of like more of a man’s man maybe.”
4078    “Yeah.”
Reply    “That sounds terrible, I don’t mean that at all.”
4078    “No.”
Reply    “But you know I think out of the two I was probably, I know Kate better than I know Gerry.”
4078    “Right, it was a very specific question I asked anyway, so what you’re saying is his character is the sort of character that you probably wouldn’t naturally have…”
Reply    “No I think he’s, we’re probably very different, I think he’s err yeah I’m trying to put it in to words because if I say he, he doesn’t intimidate me in any shape or form but you know what I mean I think he’s probably the person out of the whole group that I would feel least comfortable with, you know, just on, just chatting because we probably haven’t got as much in common.”
4078    “Yeah, but with Kate it was…”
Reply    “With Kate it was fine yeah. That sounds terrible to say and it’s not meant to sound like that at all. But it’s just…”
4078    “Well it’s just a question I asked.”
Reply    “Yeah and it’s just being honest yeah. I think out of everybody in the group Gerry’s probably the one that I know the least, least well.”
4078    “And so how did you, how did you feel about Kate?”
Reply    “Yeah, no, really yes I was getting to know her, I say it was nice to have the opportunity to get to know, get to know Kate and yeah she’s lovely, so yeah we sort of, I think we were you know forming more of a, more of a friendship.”
4078    “Okay. Right, so back to the Monday evening then you can’t really remember the Monday evening.”
Reply    “Mm.”
4078    “If anything significant had happened I’m sure you would have remembered it.”
Reply    “Mm, yeah.”
4078    “So we’ll assume then that nothing significant happened on the Monday.”
Reply    “Yeah, I can’t think of anything, no.”
4078    “And coming on to the Tuesday then, which would be by then it’d be the first of May.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “I think.”
Reply    “Yeah probably.”
4078    “What do you remember about the Tuesday, if anything at this stage?”
Reply    “Err I, nothing specific, I would have had the tennis lesson.”
4078    “Ella would have had her second morning at the…”
Reply    “Yeah I think Ella definitely went then. I can’t remember, by this stage Evie had got a bit of the squits, probably to the better phrase, so I think she was still going, I can’t, there was a couple of mornings that she didn’t go to the kids club because I didn’t think it was fair because she’d got a bit of a runny, runny nappy so to speak so, but I think, I can’t remember whether it was that morning or the next morning but I think, I think she did go, I think she did go that day.”
4078    “Okay. Do you remember anything on the Tuesday? Had you booked to do anything, any other activity? Or did you go anywhere different?”
Reply    “Err I don’t think so because I had booked originally to do the sailing but that was at the same time as the err tennis lesson so I didn’t do that. Err I’m trying to think what we did after, I’m trying to think what I did after tennis lesson but I can’t. No I can’t remember any.”
4078    “Okay.
Reply    “Nothing specific.”
4078    “And during the afternoon you’d have had Evie with you.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “Or Russell would have had Evie.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “With you and Russell and the girls, did you take it in turns to say right I’ll go and do something while you have the girls or did you pretty much just play it by ear?”
Reply    “Played it by ear really but we did sort of take it in turns, Evie tended to have a sleep after lunch so probably one of us would stay with Evie and read on the balcony or whatever while she was having a sleep and one would probably go down to the pool if people were there or vice versa or I’d stay with Evie whilst Russell took Ella back to the, the kids club so it depended really. I think some afternoons Russ took out the kayak, you know while Evie was asleep but I couldn’t say which ones or, you know, whenever.”
4078    “Okay. And you’ve already said that you were in the habit of going to David and Fiona’s for lunch.”
Reply    “Mm, yeah.”
4078    “Because they had the biggest apartment. Did you go into any of the other apartments?”
Reply    “We went in to Matt and Rachael’s apartment but I hadn’t been in to Kate and Gerry’s apartment until, well the night Madeleine went missing. I hadn’t been in to their apartment at all.”
4078    “Okay. Is there anything from the Tuesday that you can remember that would pinpoint what happened that day?”
Reply    “Err no, not really. I think there might have been a quiz that night in the Tapas bar but I’m not sure, I think there was, there was a quiz two nights and I can’t remember but I think there might have been a quiz that Tuesday night. Err but no I can’t think of anything else that would’ve, you know, anything else specifically about that day.”
4078    “Okay, you know when we spoke and you mentioned about your baby monitor?”
Reply    “Mm.”
4078    “And, I’ve got two questions; firstly, did you take that with you every night for the duration of the holiday?”
Reply    “Yes, yeah.”
4078    “And secondly, up until the Tuesday night, because that’s as far as we’ve got at the moment, is there anything else with hindsight that you have thought of about, that might have contributed to Madeleine’s disappearance?”
Reply    “Err, no I think the only thing that I have thought in retrospect is the fact that I went down to test the baby monitor that first, first night. I mean sometimes I put, because we were worried about the, what do you call it, the reach of the baby monitor, I sometimes put it, there was a wall behind me so I’d put it on there because it was slightly, slightly nearer because it’d start sort of squealing at times so, so that’s the only other thing I can think of because you know it wasn’t, sometimes we wouldn’t have been sitting at, I didn’t have it, so actually sitting on the table it was, it was on the wall where the tile (inaudible) were I sometimes had it on the wall there.”
4078    “Okay.”
Reply    “I wasn’t convinced it was really always you know totally working.”
4078    “In relation to that staff at the Tapas.”
Reply    “Mm.”
4078    “And in fact you know around, around the resort.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “Are you able to say whether they were the same staff every day or did you notice a turnover?”
Reply    “Err no, I recognised most of the, it tended to be the same waiters every night, I think some nights maybe one wasn’t there but it tended to be the same, the same, the same ones. We tended to have, there was one, I don’t know his, I think he was the one that went to the papers actually, but there was one waiter that tended to do our table most nights or he seemed to take control of our table because I remember him, I can’t remember what night, but I can remember one night him saying ‘oh sorry I was away when your blah blah came out, is everything okay’ and he seemed you know I think he was worried that he’d not actually bought the meal to the table at that point.”
4078    “Right.”
Reply    “But that’s the only real, that’s the only sort of real thing I can remember about the waiters as such but, but I think it was the same ones.”
4078    “So, I say with the benefit of hindsight, up until this point, there’s nobody that stands out in your mind as…”
Reply    “No, nothing at all that did make me…”
4078    “(Inaudible).”
Reply    “No, there’s nothing, no.”
4078    “You know what I’m trying to ask.”
Reply    “Yeah I mean there’s nobody, and when we went back to do the checks, you know, you never really saw anybody because the resort was so quiet at this stage. I don’t think, I mean I can’t even think I ever saw anybody when I walked back from the check but no I never saw anybody at all apart from (inaudible).”
4078    “Yeah, okay. Well that’s something that I’m glad we covered then because I was going to ask you later on how, you know what were the comings and goings of other people like around that time.”
Reply    “Mm.”
4078    “But as far as you remember it was very quiet.”
Reply    “It was very quiet yeah, I can’t, there might have been the odd person but not, but it was very, I say the resort was very quiet because it was early season really.”
4078    “And had you been to the beach yet by the Tuesday?”
Reply    “I’d been yeah because when I, when I did the windsurfing on the first day but no we hadn’t actually, I mean it seems really odd to go on holiday and you don’t go to the beach, but by this stage no we hadn’t, well I’d been but we hadn’t taken the children down to the beach.”
4078    “Okay. Right, so are we happy that we’ve covered what we should?”
Reply    “Actually I went for a run, sorry, err that would have probably been on the err it might have been on the Monday night actually, there was one night I went for a run just before dinner.”
4078    “Not content with your windsurfing and your tennis?”
Reply    “No I thought I’d…”
4078    “Make the best of it.”
Reply    “Yeah. I couldn’t walk the next day.”
4078    “Right.”
Reply    “Err yeah, no I went for a run so I actually went down to the beach then and sort of did a, did a loop round and I think that was the Monday night but again it, it’s either Sunday or the Monday.”
4078    “Okay. Did you go on your own? Or were you with…”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah.”
4078    “Right, and what sort of length of time would that loop take?”
Reply    “Err, depending on the speed I was going…”
4078    “(Inaudible).”
Reply    “Err it was probably about forty minutes, half an hour, forty minutes.”
4078    “Any idea what that is distance wise?”
Reply    “Err, no, if you had a map I could show you where I went if that, I don’t know whether it’s relevant.”
4078    “Yeah I think it goes out, well if you can make much sense of that.”
Reply    “Err…”
4078    “That’s the Tapas bar.”
Reply    “Right, yeah, I think I sort of went down sort of to the beach here and then came along the front of the beach and then went up here and sort of, I think I sort of came, I came round here and then I came back down here. I’m not sure how far out at this bit but I came back down here again.”
4078    “I’ve absolutely no idea what this is.”
Reply    “But it was probably about two and a half, three, three miles.”
4078    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Two and a half.”
4078    “Okay. So about forty minutes you reckon?”
Reply    “Yeah I think it was probably yeah thirty, forty minutes.”
4078    “And you say you thought that was either the Sunday or the Monday.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “What sort of time of day would that have been?”
Reply    “Err probably I think it’s after the children had had tea so probably about half six ish, half six, seven I think.”
4078    “Okay. Can you remember what you wore to go for your run? I know that sounds silly, did you go for many runs while you were there?”
Reply    “No I was supposed to be training for a half marathon in September so I think that’s why I thought right, I’d better start, so that’s the reason I went for the run but what would I have worn, err tracksuit but it would’ve been, I wouldn’t have got my legs out so it would have been tracksuit bottoms and just a t-shirt I think.”
4078    “Right, okay, I only asked that because I was trying to gauge what the temperatures, you know, what it was, but I suppose if you’re running you’re going to get warm anyway so you probably wouldn’t wear as much as you would do ordinarily.”
Reply    “Yeah. I mean I don’t think it was shorts, I think I tend to run in tracksuit bottoms, so, but yeah, no I don’t know.”
4078    “Right, okay, so the Sunday or the Monday you went for a run.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “We’ve covered the Tuesday and you can’t at this stage remember anything specific, and again you’ve not referred to other statements yet.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “So this is just what you can remember.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “Right, well we’ll come on to the Wednesday then.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “It’ll be Wednesday the second of May. What can you remember about the Wednesday?”
Reply    “Err actually go back to the Tues, there was one night, I don’t know whether it was Tuesday or Wednesday I mean there was one night when Russell didn’t come to dinner and I think it was the Wednesday but it could have been the Tuesday because Evie was sick. She was, that was the first time she was err actually sick, she used to have, the milk was like UHT milk and sometimes when she had that she’d just go, you know, and then she’d been fine again, fine again afterwards. So I think it was either the Tuesday or the Wednesday but I can’t remember which one.”
4078    “Okay.”
Reply    “So that night is the night that Russell didn’t actually come to the restaurant so coming back to what you were saying about is there anything that would highlight to people what there is, I actually carried his meals back to the room on that night and I say I don’t know whether it’s the Tuesday or the Wednesday err because he was staying with Evie because at that point we thought oh we don’t want to leave her in case she is sick again err and I think it was two nights before the Thursday so I’d say it would be Tuesday, which is why I think it was the quiz night because Russell wasn’t there when it was the quiz night.”
4078    “Okay.”
Reply    “Sorry this is just…”
4078    “No that’s fine.”
Reply    “It’s so hard to remember the days but I think yeah, so he had, he stayed back there and I took his meals back to the, back to the room so that he could have it…”
4078    “And that was the quiz night Russell wasn’t there?”
Reply    “I think that was, well it was definitely, which ever night was the big quiz night, because there was two quiz nights. There was one quiz night where they just brought round a sheet of paper with pictures on or something and it was sort of lasted about five, ten minutes, but then there was a second quiz night which was a couple of rounds and that was, that was when Russell wasn’t there because we were thinking it would be quite good if he was there because he’s got a memory for silly facts.”
4078    “Right.”
Reply    “So it would have been quite useful. Err and that was the night that happened, I think it was, that was either the Tuesday or the Wednesday.”
4078    “Okay, can you remember whether the mini quiz if you like was before or after the main quiz?”
Reply    “The mini quiz was before the main quiz.”
4078    “Right, okay. So Tuesday or Wednesday and…”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “We may clarify that later on.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “When we can go through the end of the statements. Russell was staying with Evie because she’d been sick.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “And you took his meals to him and that was the night you had the quiz night?”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “Okay. What about during the day? Can you remember anything about the Wednesday during the day?”
Reply    “Err I had a tennis lesson in the morning and then that, it was then supposed to be the second windsurfing lesson err and we couldn’t go windsurfing because it was too windy because it was a bit, the weather wasn’t great, it was too windy so they didn’t, weren’t able to go out windsurfing so they said do you want to go sailing instead and Russell wasn’t there so I maybe think he was looking after Evie, maybe that was maybe the Wednesday morning was the day that she didn’t go to the kids club, which would make sense if it was the Tuesday night that…”
4078    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Err you know he’d stayed with her, and err so I actually went out sailing with, I can’t remember his name, but somebody else that we’d, who was also doing the windsurfing classes with. I can’t, I think Russell had hurt his wrist, he’d done something, kayaking or sailing the day before, so he wasn’t bothered about going because I know, I think the Portuguese found it really hard to understand that a bloke would stay with a sick kid rather than me but err I think there was a reason he didn’t want to go sailing plus he’s a Doctor and he’s a lot better with sick than I am, which is totally honest, you know it’s totally honest so, err you know and I think in a way the holiday was a bit of my break as much as his break because I was looking after the kids all the while so.”
4078    “And also Russell was out at work and then the opportunity to spend time with the children on holiday.”
Reply    “No exactly, yeah.”
4078    “You were always with them and had…”
Reply    “And I had the opportunity to do something different so, and I think that was a sticking point when they interviewed me before, it was you know why didn’t I stay with Evie all the time that she was you know, she was sick, and I think that was, as you say for those reasons. One, he’s good with sick, and two it was my chance to have a break from the, from the children.”
4078    “Yeah, well it worked well for both of you anyway.”
Reply    “Yeah, so yeah.”
4078    “So you’d gone sailing.”
Reply    “But there’s nothing odd about it.”
4078    “No.”
Reply    “There’s nothing odd about the fact that he, he was staying with the children.”
4078    “Okay.”
Reply    “Err yeah so I went sailing but with somebody else, who I can’t remember his name but that is in my previous statement and Dave and Fi also, so they took one boat out and I took the other boat out with this other chap.”
4078    “Okay. You spent every morning, how long were the tennis lessons?”
Reply    “Err an hour.”
4078    “So you spent an hour every morning with Kate.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “And Rachael. Was it Rachael?”
Reply    “Yes, yeah.”
4078    “Did you spend any time with Kate in any other activities specifically? Not just sort of chatting.”
Reply    “Err no not really, I think sometimes she was there in the afternoon if we were by the pool.”
4078    “Mm.”
Reply    “You know, but err but no, no other specific arranged activities.”
4078    “What about with Gerry?”
Reply    “No because he tended to do his separately, which is probably why I didn’t get to know him as well over the week as well because he was better at tennis than us so he had the ten thirty lesson which was the intermediates rather than the beginners.”
4078    “Right.”
Reply    “So you know we sort of tended to sort of pass and also they had a few extra lessons in the afternoon as well so, and they tended to do all tennis based activities, whereas the rest of us were sort of bitting and bobbing between you know beach activities as well as, as well as the tennis.”
4078    “So your contact with Kate was limited to your tennis lessons and then to sort of just sitting socially..”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “At the play area or in the Tapas bar, generally.”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah, around that sort of area.”
4078    “And with Gerry it was just limited to the social side.”
Reply    “It was mainly in the evening that we saw, well after the high tea for the kids, we called it high tea but you know, tea for the kids, and afterwards in the play area with the kids and then, and then in the restaurant in the evening.”
4078    “And on the Wednesday at the sailing, you mentioned there was somebody else present, you couldn’t remember their name.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “Was that another guest?”
Reply    “That was, yeah that was another guest and his wife actually did the tennis lessons with us err and he’d done the first, I say, he was, the rest of us who did the windsurfing, it was Russ, me, Dave and Fi, and this other chap on the first day so I’d met him on the, would it be the Sunday or the mon, the Monday, I met him on the Monday. So Russell didn’t come down for the err the second windsurfing lesson which turned into a sailing lesson.”
4078    “Yeah, I’m with you there.”
Reply    “So, yeah, so we took a boat out and Dave and Fi took a boat out.”
4078    “Right. If his name comes back to you at some point just let me know.”
Reply    “Rob? I think it might have been Rob, but…”
4078    “Right.”
Reply    “But it’s definitely in my first statement, so, but I think he was called Rob.”
4078    “Okay. And that was all during the morning was it, the same?”
Reply    “That was all in the morning yeah.”
4078    “And then come lunch time do you remember if you went to collect…”
Reply    “Russell would have gone to collect Ella because the sailing finished at half twelve so I think I, I know the first day when we had the wind surfing it was quite a rush to pick them both up so I’m guessing if he wasn’t doing the sailing he would have picked up Ella.”
4078    “Okay. And can you remember what happened then for the rest of the day from your point of view?”
Reply    “No. Err the Wednesday, err again I think it would have just been a, Evie would have had a sleep and just round the pool or in the, each other apartments, until, until high tea but I think Ella, and Ella would have, Ella went to err, Ella went to the err the kids club. Actually that morning was the morning Ella and Madeleine had the tennis lesson I think on the Wednesday. You’ve got the picture of…”
4078    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Err so after the, would it be the Wednesday, after our tennis lesson they all came down so we did stay and watch them for a bit, so that makes me wonder if it was actually the sailing that day. No, yeah because the sailing started, sorry, the sailing started at half eleven so between half ten and half eleven that day we would have stood and, we stood and watched, I stood with Kate and probably Rachael we watched them having their, the kids having their tennis lesson. And I think Russell was there, yeah Russell was there with Evie then so yeah I think Russell had probably spent the morning with Evie and then be watching us play tennis and we watched Ella.”
4078    “So that was definitely the morning you think (inaudible) left to go to kids club?”
Reply    “I think that, as much as I can remember I’m fairly sure that was, and that’s the morning when we had the conversation, which I think is in some of our statements but one of the other parents was there videoing them having a tennis lesson and at that point we were sort of saying it’s so ridiculous that you’re not allowed to, you know, people look at you funny if you’re doing this now, blah, blah, and it was almost like sort of afterwards, you know, we were all going oh yeah it’s ridiculous you have to worry about this sort of thing and you can’t take pictures of your own children, blah, blah, blah.”
4078    “Mm, so there was Rachael, Kate, you, Russell.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “Gerry?”
Reply    “Err he would have probably, I think he’d started his tennis lesson on the other court so they were using one court for the err for the kids and the other court for the intermediate tennis people.”
4078    “And was Matthew around?”
Reply    “No he tended to do more, he’s a keen sailor so he tended to do more of the beach, beach activities so don’t think he was, I don’t think he was there then.”
4078    “Okay.”
Reply    “But I, that again is, I can’t say for sure, but I don’t think he was.”
4078    “And what about David and Fiona? I know you went sailing with them later on.”
Reply    “Yeah, err I don’t think they were, I can’t say for sure but I don’t think they were. I can remember, I can remember specifically Kate being there and, and Rachael and Russell, but no I can’t remember if anybody else was there. I don’t think they were. There was other parents there, they were, there was other people we’d had our tennis lesson with and their children were actually having the tennis lesson as well so they were watching.”
4078    “And do you remember whether it was a good day or bad day weather wise that point?”
Reply    “Well if it was the day I went sailing it was quite, really windy, so I don’t think it was a particularly fantastic day.”
4078    “Okay, so that takes us up until lunch time on the Wednesday then.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “Do you remember if you went to David and Fiona’s, was it every day you went there, or?”
Reply    “Err I think, it was every day except I think on the Thursday we actually ate in, Matt and Rachael came to our apartment, it was just us and Matt and Rachael. I can’t remember why we didn’t go up to Dave and Fi’s but I don’t know whether one of their kids had gone to bed already or something but I think every day up to that point we had eaten in their apartment, but on the Thursday it was just Matt and Rachael came, came, came to ours.”
4078    “Okay. So on the Wednesday then you’re likely to have been at David and Fiona’s?”
Reply    “I think so. I’m not sure but I think so.”
4078    “Right. Do you remember what happened in the afternoon on the Wednesday?”
Reply    “Err no, the afternoons are harder in a way because there was no set activities to jog, jog my memory, but err no I mean Russell tended to go and do something like go on the kayak or something, I imagined if he’d been looking after Evie in the morning he might have gone and gone on the kayak for an hour or something but I can’t say for sure. But I think Evie just had her sleep and we’d have gone, and then gone down to the, gone down to the pool bit again.”
4078    “I’m conscious that we’ve talking for quite a while now without any interruptions.”
Reply    “I know.”
4078    “Which is marvellous. It’s twenty past eleven, so we’ve been doing sort of a good forty, forty five minutes. How are you?”
Reply    “I’m fine yeah, no I prefer to keep going to be honest.”
4078    “Okay.”
Reply    “If that’s okay?”
4078    “That’s fine.”
Reply    “If that’s okay with you for now.”
4078    “I just don’t want it to get to the point where you know you’re just…”
Reply    “No.”
4078    “You’re so bored by the process.”
Reply    “No, no.”
4078    “Right okay, so Wednesday you’ve done lunch, you’re not a hundred percent certain what you did in the afternoon.”
Reply    “Yeah, no.”
4078    “And baring in mind this was like the last normal meal if you like.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “At the Tapas bar, what can you remember about that?”
Reply    “Well I’d say out of all the nights this was the one we stayed the latest the other nights we’d been probably you know going quite err early and out of all the nights this was probably the one where we did have more to drink than the other nights. I mean not, not fourteen bottles or whatever they said but that night we probably had, did have, it was probably the longer night that we stayed in the Tapas bar.”
4078    “Was Russell there?”
Reply    “Russell was definitely there so yeah I think it was…”
4078    “It must have been the Tuesday then.”
Reply    “I think it was definitely the Tuesday that he was, he wasn’t there.”
4078    “Okay.”
Reply    “Err but Rachael wasn’t there that night because she’d got the bug that Matt had had earlier in the week so she, she wasn’t there.”
4078    “Right.”
Reply    “On the Wednesday night.”
4078    “And what time do you think you stayed there until that night?”
Reply    “I think it was midnight that night, it was quite, it was actually quite late because after we’d finished the meal we actually went into the bar area just for a, for one, you know, for a night cap. So that was, I think it, I don’t know whether it was quite as late as midnight but it was definitely much later than any of the other nights we’d been there.”
4078    “And how were the checks going with the children by that stage? Because by then it would be like the fourth night you’d been to the Tapas. Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, yeah the fourth.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “So how had things developed by then?”
Reply    “I’d say, I mean they were still as regular through the meal, that, the point where we were in the bar at the end was probably the longest, that was probably about forty minutes and I’d probably say during that forty minutes probably, I don’t know, we didn’t go back to check so that was probably the longest that the check hadn’t been, hadn’t been done you know. Err because I don’t, you know, I mean well one of us I don’t think went back while we were in the bar area but we were probably in there for about, it was probably about forty minutes.”
4078    “But from the early part of the evening there’d been fairly regular checks.”
Reply    “Yeah, the same as, yeah the same as, the same as before. I can’t remember who checked when or, you know, I can’t remember when, you know whether it was me or Russell or whoever went back at that point. I don’t, I’m trying to think if by that point we were checking on each other’s…”
4078    “That was part of my next question.”
Reply    “Oh right. Err I mean I didn’t personally, I think, I mean I’ll tell you when I went back I just tended to check on bars and I listened at Matt and Rachael’s, you know at some point we listened at Matt and Rachael’s window and down there but err no I can’t remember, but by that stage I think we were listening but we didn’t, I don’t know whether people actually went in to, to be honest nobody, if we hadn’t gone nobody could have gone in to ours because they’d need the key so when people did check ours they did, they did just listen, so.”
4078    “When we come on to talk about the Thursday evening later on I’m going to try and get you to sort of go back in a lot more detail that we’ve been talking about so far.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “I was tempted then to ask you about the route back to your apartment but we’ll leave that for perhaps after lunch when you’ve had a little bit of a break and stuff.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “But what I’d like to do for now is just to get up to the point where we’ve done sort of Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday already.”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah.”
4078    “And we’re ready to start on with the going into a little bit more detail on the Thursday.”
Reply    “Mm.”
4078    “So I’m assuming from what I’ve read and from what you’ve said or haven’t said so far that there was never any problem amongst the group.”
Reply    “No, never.”
4078    “And nothing remarkable at all really up until…”
Reply    “No it was actually on the Thursday night I remember when we all got to the table we were sort of saying how well the holiday had been going you know and how, because you know when you do go on holiday with a group of people there’s often, not friction, but you can often get a bit of, you know because somebody’s wanting to do one thing and somebody’s…”
4078    “Yeah well we’re all different aren’t we, so.”
Reply    “But because of the nature of the holiday we were sort of doing our own thing in the day anyway and then just getting together in the evening so, no that was working, well I say, it was one of those ironic things now but you know I can remember actually sitting there saying oh isn’t this working well, it’s you know, and from Russell and ours, our point of view, because we so nearly didn’t go, we were thinking oh we’re really glad we came because Ella had been fine, she was you know she was loving it and err giving her distraction from the horrible week she’d had before, so yeah it we were sort of like oh we’re so glad, you know, we’re so glad we came, you know, it was the right thing, you know it was right to come sort of thing.”
4078    “In relation to the activities that you sort of signed up for and that were available to you, did you have to take equipment with you or was it available to hire?”
Reply    “No, it’s all to hire.”
4078    “So from your point of view, you and Russell didn’t take tennis equipment.”
Reply    “No, no.”
4078    “Or sailing equipment.”
Reply    “No.”
4078    “Whatever you’d need for that.”
Reply    “No, no.”
4078    “And what about the other couples?”
Reply    “Err I don’t know whether Kate and Gerry took, they might have taken racquets because I think they’d always, they’d always been planning to do the tennis, especially Gerry. Gerry had always been planning to do the tennis so I don’t know whether he took a tennis racquet or not, but no, I mean we didn’t, I hadn’t really thought about doing the tennis until we got there and thought, so we did a taster session then thought ah yeah I’ll do that. But I’m not that keen on water.”
4078    “So you’d turn up and just take the equipment that was available to you?”
Reply    “Yeah take what was available, yeah.”
4078    “Would that have been the same for Rachael as well, as far as you know?”
Reply    “Err, again she’s played more tennis than me but I don’t think she took her equipment, it was just what was there.”
4078    “But you think that Kate might have come with a racquet?”
Reply    “I don’t know about Kate, I think Gerry might have done but again, I don’t know, I’m just surmising just because they’re keener tennis players.”
4078    “Right. You can’t picture seeing him or her at any stage with a full bag of tennis equipment or?”
Reply    “No.”
4078    “Okay. And so we’ve come to the Wednesday night and you’ve had a few more drinks than you had done previously and you had a later night. Was Evie all better by that stage?”
Reply    “Yeah she’d been running around in the day so, we did umm and ahh about you know, I think we did think oh shall I stay with her but she’d been so happy all day we just thought I think she’s fine and we were doing the checks so yeah we didn’t, we thought you know we thought she was fine, as I say she’d been fine since she’d had the one which was more from the milk, it was the UHT milk that didn’t agree with her.”
4078    “And from the comments amongst the group, how were the other children doing?”
Reply    “Yeah fine, yeah they were, they were tired. I think the Wednesday night, there was one night when Ella had a complete meltdown and sort of, she’s not sort of a tantrumy child but she was so tired she just sort of crashed and screamed during bath time. I think that might have been, I’m not sure if that was the Wednesday, it could have been the Wednesday but she just had a complete, you know how the kids do when they’re tired, complete meltdown and there’s screaming and they’re so tired it was quite hard to settle her but then she just, she just crashed, but there was, I think that was the Wednesday night that she, I mean by, when we were playing in the play area she sort of lay on the floor and started, which she doesn’t do at all so we knew she was, we knew she was shattered at that point. But I think that, I think that was the Wednesday.”
4078    “Okay. There seems to be nothing left then but to move on to the Thursday.”
Reply    “Mm.”
4078    “We have been going a long time and I think I’m going to enforce a break on you.”
Reply    “Okay that’s fine.”
4078    “Because that’s easier then when we come to talk about.”
Reply    “Yeah it’s a good time, yeah.”
4078    “Rather than stopping and starting.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
4078    “So it’s now eleven twenty nine and we’ll stop this interview, unless there’s anything you want to say before we move on to the Thursday?”
Reply    “Err no I don’t think so.”
4078    “Well we can always revisit it if you want.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
The interview ceased at 1129 hours when the tape recorder was switched off.

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