Duarte Levy..

Freelance journalist

Jane Tanner – Record Of Tape Recorded Interview III

4078    “It is eleven fifty-five and fifty-nine, so it is nearly eleven fifty-six, which it is now.  We are in an interview room at the Force Headquarters of Leicestershire Police and I am DC FERGUSON from the Leicestershire Major Crime Unit.  And you are?”
Reply    “Jane Michelle TANNER”.
4078    “Thank you Jane.  We have done two discs already on interviews and we have been working our way through part of what has been a very significant holiday”.
Reply    “Umm”.
4078    “We have gone from the Saturday when you arrived up until the Wednesday night so far.  And you have just said that you have been racking your brains to see if there is anything else that you have thought of that we have missed during that time?”
Reply    “Umm”.
4078    “And you said you can’t think of anything else at the moment?”
Reply    “No, I can’t think of anything at the moment”.


4078    “There was just two things I have thought to ask before we move on to the Thursday”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Madeleine, how much of Madeleine did you see?”
Reply    “Not that much really because only really because she didn’t come to breakfast, so we saw the other children at breakfast and their lunch, but because they tended to have breakfast and lunch separately, the only time I really saw her was at, erm, after high tea when we were playing in the play area, was the main times that I probably saw her during the week”.
4078    “And how would you describe Madeleine?”
Reply    “Very, she was very lively, a very lively, happy, a happy little girl really.  Because, probably a bit of, we were almost a bit worried how Ella and Madeleine would get on, because Ella’s quite shy and sensitive and Madeleine’s very, erm, I don’t know whether you can call a child vivacious, but, you know, sort of very, erm, outgoing and.  But, I mean, they did, they got on and they had a whale of a time.  But, yeah, very, very lively, chatty, a chatty little girl.  I mean, to be honest, I know Madeleine probably less well than I know Kate and Gerry, because often, with Kate and Gerry, we saw them, it was like at fortieth birthday parties and that sort of thing.  So, Madeleine herself, I wouldn’t say as, I didn’t know her as a little girl, whereas, you know, the other children, Millie and the other ones, you know, I saw very regularly”.
4078    “So your impressions of Madeleine is that she is confident, happy?”
Reply    “Umm”.
4078    “Intelligent?”
Reply    “Yeah, very, yeah, you know, very”.
4078    “And is there anything about her that would make her stand out from the rest of the children in that group?”
Reply    “I think just the fact she is very outgoing, you know.  As I say, Ella, in her nature, is a bit more, you know, quiet and, erm, a bit more probably reserved.  Well, again, I don’t know whether you’d call a child reserved, but more, you know, not quite so”.
4078    “Hangs back and sees what is going on?”
Reply    “Yeah, she’s, yeah, whereas, I think Madeleine would be, she would always be in the centre, anything that was going on she would be, I don’t mean to say the ring-leader, but she would be at the centre of it, so”.
4078    “I don’t want to put words in your mouth and I don’t want to ask inappropriate questions either”.
Reply    “No, just ask”.
4078    “How you described Madeleine, up to what point was she sort of the leader, if you like, was she verging on the, because some children can be downright annoying”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “When they’re over confident?”
Reply    “No, again, I think this is what I was almost wondering, whether, with Ella being sort of the stand-back type, whether, but, no, she wasn’t like that at all, she was just”.
4078    “In a nice way?”
Reply    “Just happy.  In a nice way, yeah.  No, she wasn’t, erm, she wasn’t a brat, no, I mean, that’s you could describe, she wasn’t, no, bratty or sort of, I can’t remember the word I’m trying to look for, precocious”.
4078    “Yeah”.
Reply    “No, she was just very, and she was obviously, you know, they were enjoying themselves, they were running around screaming, you know, sort of chasing them round the play area, you know.  That’s my main memory of Madeleine from the holiday, is in the play area, you know, we were sort of chasing them around and, you know, just being, just running around, quite happy”.
4078    “Just fun?”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah”.
4078    “Okay.  And you also mentioned that you went for a run.  Was that the only one that you did, I know I asked, but I can’t”.
Reply    “Yes, I think it was, yeah”.
4078    “And what about the rest of the group, were you aware of them going running?”
Reply    “Erm, I know Kate and Gerry, I think they did a run together on the day that I did a run, because I think I saw them and I thought ‘Oh God, I better go’, because I was supposed to be training and I thought ‘Oh I’d better’, it sort of guilted me into going for a run anyway, so.  And Fiona often went for, I think she did a few, she did a few runs.  Erm, and Matt and Rachael do run, so I would imagine they probably did.  Me and Russell are the lazy ones really out of all, the rest of them are all very sporty”.
4078    “None of you sound lazy”.
Reply    “But, no, they”.
4078    “I am worn out just thinking about it”.
Reply    “But, no, they tended to, so I would imagine, I think Matt would have definitely have gone.  I can remember Matt going for a run actually.  I think Russell was probably the only one that didn’t at all probably during the holiday and Fi’s mum”.
4078    “Oh I know, that is Dianne, isn’t it?”
Reply    “Dianne, yeah”.
4078    “Yeah, I think I will be speaking to Dianne at the end of the week”.
Reply    “Oh right, yeah”.
4078    “Okay.  Well I am ready to move onto Thursday, are you?”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah”.
4078    “Let’s just go through what you can remember then”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Also there is going to be a lot of questions arising”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “And things”.
Reply    “That’s fine, yeah”,
4078    “So rather than me asking and prompting you through the day, you just tell me straight off, if you can try and, as much as you can”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Try and get yourself back there and go through the motions that you went through on that Thursday”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “And see how you get on”.
Reply    “Okay.  Erm, that morning I didn’t go for breakfast at Millennium, I think we’d been a bit later the night before, so we just thought, ‘Oh let’s just’, we just stayed in bed a bit longer.  We didn’t, so I didn’t, like I say, I didn’t go, I just went straight to the, straight to the tennis lesson.  So I think Russell took, Russell took Ella and Evie up to the Millennium with, erm, I think he went with Matt.  Again, I’m not sure, but I think he went up with Matt and Grace up to the Millennium, and Rachael and I went to play tennis.  So I think that was the only morning I probably didn’t go, didn’t go for breakfast, was the Thursday.  So then we had our, we had the tennis lesson as normal in the morning.  I think Evie, no, Evie definitely didn’t go to the Kids Club that morning.  So I think Russell went for breakfast, took the kids for breakfast at the MILLENIUM, then walked down, dropped Ella off at her Kids Club and then brought Evie back to watch us playing tennis, no.  No, I got that wrong, sorry, doh, I got it wrong actually.  So that, you know how I said on the Wednesday we had been watching them having their tennis lesson and we spoke to the chap, it wasn’t the person that said ‘Isn’t it bad that you video’.  Ella, so, hang on, let’s go back.  I’m just getting myself all.  On the Wednesday me, Rachael and Kate watched Ella and Madeleine having their tennis lesson”.
4078    “Yeah”.
Reply    “But then on the Thursday another group of children came down for their tennis lesson and that’s when Russell and this other person was there with the video camera.  Because just going backwards, I’m thinking Russell dropped Ella off and then came to watch us finishing our tennis lesson with Evie, because Evie didn’t go to the Kids Club.  And after our tennis lesson that day another group of children came down for their tennis lesson, so”.
4078    “Not Madeleine?”
Reply    “Not Madeleine and Ella, no, another group.  And we sort of just watched them starting and that’s when the conversation with this other person with the video camera, because he was taking pictures of his daughter”.
4078    “Are you sure that it was his daughter?”
Reply    “I’m absolutely.  It definitely was his daughter, yes, yeah”.
4078    “So it was not sort of a stranger we have got with a video camera?”
Reply    “No, no, I think he was actually on our flight out, so we had actually spoken to him during the week.  So, no, he was definitely, he was definitely a guest who had his daughter there.  But, yeah, I got that wrong.  And that makes more sense because I was thinking the day before I would have gone off to play, to do the same, whereas that day, after the tennis lesson, I didn’t do any other activity, for want of, yeah, so.  Does that make sense?”
4078    “Yeah, it does, but just to clarify though, that on the Wednesday, when you saw Madeleine and Ella had her tennis lesson, do you remember if Russell was there then?”
Reply    “I don’t remember if he was there, but I don’t’ think so”.
4078    “But on the Thursday he was there”.
Reply    “He was definitely there”.
4078    “Watching Madeleine and Ella”.
Reply    “It was the other, it was other part of the, it was the same age group but it was the other half of the group that were having their tennis lesson”.
4078    “Okay”.
Reply    “No, I thought when I was saying that, that it didn’t sound quite fright, so, yeah”.
4078    “Okay”.
Reply    “So, yeah, so we had, erm, the tennis lesson finished, so I’ve had that conversation about ‘Isn’t it awful you can’t watch your daughter’, blah, blah, blah, ‘You can’t film your own daughter’.  And then we walked down to the beach with Evie.  So I think, erm, I think we walked down, no, Dave and Fi were already down there and, no, we met.  Hang on.  Sorry, I’m just trying to think.
4078    “There is no problem, just in your own time.  Was this your first beach visit by the way?”
Reply    “It was with the children, yeah, with Evie, yeah.  And, again, that sounds odd, but we’d just moved to Devon, so I think we’d been to the beach quite a lot, so normally when, if we’d gone on holiday we’d have been like straight to the beach, but because we’d, because we were by the beach”.
4078    “Not so much”.
Reply    “Yeah, I don’t think we’d sort of, we hadn’t sort of thought of going before.  Erm, you know, walking down to the beach, so Russell, me and Evie walked down to the beach.  I don’t know, I don’t know what Kate did then (inaudible) but I don’t know where Kate went at that point, but she didn’t come to the beach with us.  Erm, we, I think we met Dave and Fi coming back, because they’d had their second, I think they’d had their second sailing lesson, erm, which Russell should have gone to but he didn’t because of looking after Evie, because I’d paid for the tennis lesson but he hadn’t paid for the sailing lesson we thought I’d do the tennis lesson”.
4078    “Because it was paid?”
Reply    “Yeah, erm, I think we met Dave and Fi coming back and they said they’d seen Madeleine and Ella on a boat, because they’d taken the kids sailing that morning, so they said ‘Oh we’ve seen Madeleine and Ella on a boat down there’.  So then we went down to the beach, erm, and Russell took out a kayak and I sat and just played on the beach with Evie at that point.  And we saw, erm, they’d come off the boat and we saw Ella and Madeleine and the rest of the group, they were just, erm, they’d just come off the boat and they were getting ready to walk back up to the, erm, tut, the Kids Club, so”.
4078    “What was the weather like at that time when you remember seeing Madeleine on the beach then?”
Reply    “Erm, I think that day was a bit nicer actually.  I think, I’m trying to, I’ve got pictures of Ella, of Evie, that’s about the first day I took pictures actually, and I’ve got pictures of Evie and I’m trying to remember what she was wearing.  It was a tee-shirt, so I don’t think it was, it wasn’t as, I think it was actually getting a bit nicer, it wasn’t as cold.  No, yeah, because the Thursday was actually probably one of the first nice days, which is why I think we had gone later in the day, we took all the kids down to the beach because it was actually nicer weather.  So, yeah, the Thursday was probably the first day I think the sun had more come out in the day”.
4078    “When you were there with Evie and you had seen Madeleine and Ella sort of getting ready to go back to the Kids Club, were there many other people around?”
Reply    “Erm, not many, erm, phew, you know, I mean, I can remember sitting in a big space, you know, you weren’t like jammed in, there was a big space before any of the others.  And, again, I’ve racked my brains to think if I could if there was anybody there that was, and I can’t think of any, noticing anybody, noticing anybody odd at that point.  Erm, there was mainly just, as I say, there was the kids there and there was the people that run the activities on the beach.  But, erm, you know, there were other people but nothing, you know, nobody, nobody that stood out completely”.
4078    “Okay.  Go on then”.
Reply    “Yeah, so erm, so, yeah, Russ took the, took the kayak out for a bit and then came back and then we just sat, I think we just stayed then on the beach and waited to, because Ella, and then waited ‘til sort of half twelve to go and pick Ella up for lunch, erm.  So we walked back via the Kids Club and then back up for lunch.  And I think that day was the day we had lunch in our apartment with just Matt and Rachael and not Dave and Fi.  I think, I think because they’d done the sailing early, I think they might have picked up their kids a bit earlier and given them lunch, you know, beforehand.  I can’t remember why we didn’t, but it was just the four of us and the kids there that day.  Erm, so, yeah, we just went back and had lunch in the apartment.  And then Grace and Evie, took them to have a, have a nap.  And I think probably before Ella went back, Rachael and I just went to have a knock on the tennis court.  So, I mean, I don’t know what time that would have been, probably, I’m trying to think what time the Kids Club started in the afternoon, I think it’s half two, but I mean, you’ll know that, I think it was half two, so probably about half one, erm, Rachael and I just went down to, you know, the court was free so we thought ‘Oh we’ll go and have a bit of a knock’ at that point.  Erm, so Russ took back, took Ella back to the Kids Club and Matt listened for Evie while Russ took Ella.  Matt, Matt sort of was listening for Evie and Grace while Russ took Ella back to the, back to the Kids Club”.
4078    “Right”.
Reply    “Erm, and I think we played ‘til about, phew, half two, because I think, I’m not sure if this is going to be another question that you are going to ask, but I think that was the last time that I saw Madeleine, because Kate and Gerry brought the kids, all the kids down to the play area to, they would have their lunch before they took them back to the Kids Club, and I think that was about two, quarter past two’ish, and I can remember Madeleine shouting things to us on the tennis court, you know, and I can remember Gerry sort of going ‘Oh good shot’ or whatever.  And I think that would have been the last time that I personally, you know, I personally saw Madeleine.  Erm, and I think they then left, I say times, I’m not sure, but I know, I think it was probably, the Kids Club had already gone back in, because I could hear, the Kids Club was right by the court, so, and I can remember thinking ‘Oh they’ve not gone straight back in’.  Then they took the twins up to the Kids Club and I presume Madeleine back to the, to the other one, because then Kate and Gerry, I think we saw them, I can’t remember for exactly, but I think we saw them when we come back, because they’d booked a, erm, a private tennis lesson, just the two of them, that afternoon, and I think, I don’t, I can’t remember whether we saw them coming back before me and Rachael finished or whether we saw them doing that when we then went down to the beach, but I remember seeing Kate and Gerry coming back to have their, have their private tennis lesson.  So anyway me and Rachael probably knocked up for about any hour maybe or probably a bit less than an hour, then went back and then, then Matt and Russ, when we got back, Matt and Russ went down to the beach and I think they took a boat out, erm, Matt fell off the boat and nearly lost Matt off the side of the boat and we thought that would be the drama of the day, but.  So, yeah, then they went down to their and then we’d arranged to actually take all the kids down to the beach with Dave and Fi and Dianne that afternoon, so then when Evie and Grace woke up, we all well followed and all went down to the beach as a group, but not with, but Kate and Gerry didn’t come then because they’d booked this private, you know, this private lesson”.
4078    “So it was Fiona and David?”
Reply    “Yeah”
4078    “And Dianne?”
Reply    “Dianne, yeah”.
4078    “And Grace?”
Reply    “Grace”.
4078    “Sorry, Lily, Scarlet”.
Reply    “Lily, Scarlet and Grace”.
4078    “It’s like a test for me trying to remember”.
Reply    I know it is, yeah”.
4078    “I am missing a couple.  Rachael and Matthew, they were there too?”
Reply    “Rachael was.  Matt, Matthew had gone down with Russell, so they were already on the beach, they were, as I say, they were trying to drown each other on the boat at this point, so they were already down there”.
4078    “So everybody was there apart from Gerry and Kate and Madeleine and the twins?”
Reply    “And Ella.  Ella was still in the Kids Club at this point as well”.
4078    “Okay”.
Reply    “Like I say, yeah, everybody apart from those”.
4078    “What time of day was that by that point, roughly?”
Reply    “Erm, I think it was about three’ish, three thirty, probably by, it might even have been later by the time we’d got ourselves, I’d say three thirty-four”.
4078    “Okay”.
Reply    “By the time we’d got everybody, trying to get Dave and Fi anywhere is like trying to organise an Army, so I imagined it probably went a bit”.
4078    “Why is that?”
Reply    “Erm, they’re just always late”.
4078    “Whose fault is it?”
Reply    “They’re just always late and faffing, I think Dave’s a faffer so it’s normally, so, yeah, I think, erm, it was probably three thirty, four”.
4078    “Okay”.
Reply    “Ish.  Erm, so, yeah, we went down to the beach and we were probably on the beach for an hour.  Matt and Russ came out from their sailing and started telling us, you know, about their, how Matt had fallen off the side and he’d had to go back and get him, et cetera.  Erm, I think, actually, at this, I think Dave, sorry David, might have been down there as well, he might not have come down with us, he might have already been down there as well but he joined us.  I can’t, I think he was, yeah, I think he was out on the water as well, so he wouldn’t have walked down with us, we met him there as well”.
4078    “Okay”.
Reply    “But”.
4078    “He was on the beach with you?”
Reply    “He was on the beach, yeah.  Erm, so, yeah, we played with the kids for probably about an hour and a half on the beach.  And then Russell went to get, pick Ella up from the Kids Club and he brought her back down, back down to the beach”.
4078    “Was that the normal time that they finished?”
Reply    “Erm, I think it was about five.  It would have been before, because they used to walk them up for tea, so because we were going to give them all tea on the beach we didn’t, we made sure it was before they left, but it would have probably have been about, just before five I think”.
4078    “And how long did it take you to go from the beach to the Kids Club?”
Reply    “Erm, phew, five minutes”.
4078    “Not long at all?”
Reply    “No, it was up a hill.  Yeah, probably four or five minutes”.
4078    “Okay.  Go on then.  So Russell goes back to fetch Ella?”
Reply    “Yeah, and then I remember him coming back down, erm, to the beach.  I think she was on his shoulders.  I don’t know why I remember that, but I remember him”.
4078    “Well that is good, if you have got a mental image”.
Reply    “Yeah, yeah, that’s what I’m thinking, yeah.  So, yeah, he came back down and I think we were still on the beach at that point, I don’t think we’d gone to the café, I think when he came back we were still on the beach.  And then we walked up to, I think it’s Café Paris, Parisio or something, it’s the café that’s on the front, and we just had, had some drinks there and gave the kids some tea, so we got them some tea, because obviously they weren’t having it in the,  the Kids, they didn’t have the provided tea that night.  Erm, I had an orange juice, I didn’t even have a beer, I remember that, because I thought ‘Oh shall I have a beer’ and I thought ‘Oh no, I’ll have an orange juice’.  I don’t know why I remember that either but”.
4078    “Obviously a conscious decision”.
Reply    “It was a conscious, yeah.  I think normally I probably would have at that time of day thought ‘It’s time for a beer’.  But, no, I had an orange juice and we fed the kids and then they played in front of the, erm, tut, in front of the restaurant there was like a slide and swings and they were playing on there”.
4078    “Is that actually on the beach then?”
Reply    “Yeah, more or less, yeah, it’s sort of right on the edge and then it goes onto the beach, so the swings are actually on the beach, a bit of it.  Erm, I’m trying to think what else, what we did when we were in the restaurant.  I can’t remember.  There was some lobsters in a, tut, a tank.  And the group Ella and Madeleine was in was called LOBSTER, so I can remember going, like lobsters”.
4078    “Right (inaudible)”.
Reply    “A key piece, it’s a key piece of information there, sorry.  And then, I think, yeah, I gave the kids some food and they had an ice cream.  And then I think, it was every night, yeah, every night there was social tennis actually, so that’s probably what happened after tea on most nights, we’d go and do an hour of tennis and sort of mix and match between us all, so the kids would be playing in the, erm, the play area, and, you know, we’d sort of like, somebody will stay and play with the kids and then we’d swap in and out if it was.  But like they had, one night they had a ladies’ night, but Thursday night was actually the men’s night of tennis and I think somebody, basically made, tried to make ourselves as awkward as possible on this holiday, I think, because somebody had asked, because there weren’t many people there and most of the people playing tennis were in our group except a few others, they sort of said ‘Oh could it be just slightly’, it was either slightly earlier or slightly later, so I think it was actually, I think normally it started at half six but we’d asked ‘Could the social tennis start at six’, so that they then gave us time to get the kids into bed afterwards”.
4078    “Right”.
Reply    “Does that make sense?”
4078    “Yeah”.
Reply    “Erm, so I can remember saying to Russell and Matt and everything, it was about quarter past six, I said ‘Oh you’ve got to go to the men’s night tennis because they’ve changed the times for us and now you’re not bloody going’, you know, that sort of, it was that sort of thing.  So I think at about quarter past six they, they all went up to, erm, to the men’s tennis”.
4078    “Had Kate and Gerry joined you at that time?”
Reply    “No, they didn’t come down to the beach at all because they’d had their, erm, they’d had their private tennis lesson or whatever it was, so it was quite late in the day, so they hadn’t”.
4078    “You hadn’t seen them at all then, that afternoon?”
Reply    “Only, I’d seen them about half, well about two, between two and half two”.
4078    “And the tennis?”
Reply    “Yeah, and I saw them, as I say, I can’t remember whether it was then that they had their tennis lesson, so I can’t remember whether I saw them when me and Rachael went back to the room or whether it was when we took all the kids down to the beach, we saw them playing tennis, but we’d seen them then.  And also I saw, we saw Kate running when we were at the Café Parisio or whatever it was, Kate was running along, we saw Kate running along the beach, so she’d obviously gone for a run.  Actually I think that was before, I think that’s, yeah, that’s when we were still on the beach, so it was before we’d gone to the café that we saw Kate running”.
4078    “Right.  So it was before teatime?”
Reply    “Before, yeah.  So it would have probably been before five, it would have been sort of, either before, definitely before half past five I would have said we’d seen her, yeah”.
4078    “And she was on her own?”
Reply    “She was on her own, yeah.  Erm, so, yeah, the, sorry, Russell, Matt and Dave went up to, back up to the complex, for want of a better word, to play tennis, because we sort of said ‘Well’”.
4078    “You’ve got to?”
Reply    “’You’ve got to because’.  I think Russell and I are probably more sort of laid back and just go with the flow a bit, but some of the people on the holiday were quite sort of ‘Oh we’ll ask, we’ll get this’, you know, a bit like booking the Tapas Restaurant every night, I don’t think it would ever have crossed Russell and my mind to try and get a block booking, but, erm, you know, I think they sort of”.
4078    “Once somebody has you feel obliged to go along with it?”
Reply    “Well, I think, yeah, I mean, and we actually did have a conversation, it’s one of those ‘What ifs’ as well, I can remember on the morning of the, Thursday morning by the tennis, at the tennis, somebody in our tennis group had tried to book the Tapas and they couldn’t get in because it was already full.  And I can remember thinking at that point, and I just felt, you know, ‘Good’, because they were bloomin’ awkward by booking it out.  And they were sort of saying well it’s a bit ridiculous that they couldn’t have got in because they’d booked, they’d tried to book in, you know, they’d been there at nine o’clock to book in and they still couldn’t get in.  So, we did, at that point, I can remember having this conversation was ‘Oh shall we go somewhere different’, but it never happened, but.  And Kate was, I think Kate was there then, I can’t remember who else, but we did actually say ‘Oh shall we, shall we go somewhere different’.  And I think almost at that point we had considered it, but I think the problem was the kids were so tired after having such full days, I think it was more ‘Well it’s worked every other night’.  But I know definitely from my point of view I felt quite bad that we were taking this, you know, this block booking every night and it was affecting other people using it”.
4078    “What were the other options then for eating, was there a good option close by?”
Reply    “No, it was just the Millennium, well in terms of ones that you wouldn’t have to pay extra for, it was the Millennium, which didn’t really start until, I think it was half seven or something, so, you know, by that stage it was, we could have, we could have gone there, so I think.  And our kids are probably more, I don’t know, (inaudible) our kids as they are growing up, but we tend to drag our kids with us more, you know, they have never really had a certain bedtime as such, I think”.
4078    “So they adapted more?”
Reply    “They adapt, they’re more adaptable, yeah.  But I think, I normally would have pushed that, but I think because Ella had had the complete, the night before, because she was so tired, so completely lost the plot, we thought ‘She’s tired, lets just, you know, stick with it as it is really’”.
4078    “And the holiday was all inclusive?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Does the Tapas come under that bracket?”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah, that’s, that’s did, yeah”.
4078    “Right”.
Reply    “Erm, so what was I saying, sorry, I got side tracked there.  I was, so we’d come back for the tennis, yeah, we’d sent them back to the tennis”.
4078    “That’s right”.
Reply    “Because we thought ‘It’s not fair that they’ve’”.
4078    “That’s where we were, yeah”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “I’m struggling to remember as well”.
Reply    “Yeah, it’s not fair that they’ve changed the time for us and then they don’t go.  So they went back up at that point and then we followed up probably about quarter of an hour later with all the kids and we went to the play area by the tennis courts and had a, you know, we probably stayed there for about half an hour or so.  At that point, I’m not, I can’t say how long that was, about half an hour”.
4078    “Were Madeleine and the”.
Reply    “No, they weren’t there.  No, they weren’t there.  Yeah, they’d most, but Gerry was there, he was playing, he was playing tennis”.
4078    “Right”.
Reply    “Yeah.  Erm, so, yeah, we stayed there for a bit and then took the children back and got them, you know, bathed and blah blah and got them ready for bed, but that was probably, by that stage that was probably, erm, half seven’ish probably I’d say, by the time we, we went back, if not maybe even a bit later, I’m not sure, but around then, around the seven o’clock mark”.
4078    “Nothing different to the rest of the holiday really?”
Reply    “No, no, no, just, erm, yeah, it was the same, we’d done that almost every night.  I think, I think both of them had a bit of a screaming fit that night, because I can remember them being quite bad when they got into bed, because I think they just lost it.  And also I think Ella was, because Russell was still playing tennis she was like ‘Where’s daddy, why is he not putting me to bed’, so there was a bit of that as well.  But I can remember them being, being a bit, err, it was tiredness, they were doing so much in the day that they did kick off a bit when we got back to the room, but.  Erm, so, yeah, I think Russell came back, I think they were supposed to finish at half seven and it was around, I think they had a bit of, but it went on a bit longer, so they were probably back about, he was probably back about quarter to eight.  And then put the, and they weren’t, Ella and Evie weren’t in bed at that point, erm, I think they, it was probably about quarter past eight by the time we actually put them, them in, them into bed.  And then I went down to the restaurant just after half eight.  There’s another, another thing that I was feeling bad about was, erm, we’d got this block booking for half past eight, but because Dave and Fi are so rubbish at getting anywhere, again they’re always late, it was edging back every night, so we were sort of getting to the place of sort of quarter to nine, nine o’clock, when everybody was getting there and, as I said earlier, a lot of people were going earlier, you know, earlier in the evening, so I was very conscious we were sort of keeping all the waiters there late, you know, not later, but later than they probably would, would normally be there, so.  So I think by that stage we knew what the menu was, so I’d got Russell’s order but he stayed, because the children had only been asleep for quarter of an hour, he stayed back in the room for a bit longer, just to check that they were definitely asleep before, before he came, came to join, you know, everybody else”.
4078    “Yeah”.
Reply    “So, yeah, I think I went down about, it was just after half eight, so probably twenty-five to nine’ish, I’m not, but it was, it was quite close to half eight because, as I say, I was very conscious that we were all being so late all the time and it was getting later and later”.
4078    “And who was there when you got there?”
Reply    “Kate and Gerry were there already and they were talking to, I don’t know their names, but they were talking to the two people that Gerry played tennis with in, erm, in his group, who were sitting in the restaurant”.
4078    “I haven’t seen a photograph of the inside of the Tapas Bar”.
Reply    “Umm”.
4078    “Could you just briefly describe as you go, is there only one door, is it a kind of open?”
Reply    “It’s open more or less, yeah, so”.
4078    “Just give me some idea of what it looks like?”
Reply    “Yeah, so as you walk, so you walk in past, yeah, it is past the pool, and there was sort of a tarpaulin bit, I’m going to go this way because I can’t”.
4078    “Visualise it, left and right (inaudible)”.
Reply    “Yeah, so the tarpaulin is here and you’ve got the tables here and then it’s all open from that side, so, and the big table for us in sort of the middle, they’d put a table there and then there was some more tables down the side by the tarpaulin.  And I think our table had moved slightly that way because, as I said, the other nights I’d had the monitor behind me on sort of the ledge where the tarpaulin was, I think there was actually a table between us and the tarpaulin this night, so I think we’d actually gone a bit.  I can’t remember, I was talking to Russell about this last night and he couldn’t remember, but I’m sure, purely because of the fact I’d been putting the monitor there, so it was actually, it was only that much nearer, but that made the difference, so, erm”.
4078    “Was it a table specifically for a large group or had they sort of mackled together a group of tables?”
Reply    “Erm, I think they’d put some together, but it was round, it was just one big round, a big round one. I can’t remember to be honest.  But, I mean, I think the first time we’d gone there we’d had the thing we’d had with the Millennium the first night, you know, we was all trying to put tables together, so now they knew we were coming we had a, we had the, erm, you know, the big table there waiting”.
4078    “You say when you got there Gerry and Kate were talking to another couple from tennis?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Do you remember where they were sitting?”
Reply    “The other couple?”
4078    “All four of them”.
Reply    “Erm, Kate and Gerry were standing up, so they hadn’t sat down at this point, they were standing.  So this was say our table, this other couple were here, I think, and Kate and Gerry were standing here, talking to them”.
4078    “Okay”.
Reply    “Erm, so, yeah, I’d got down and I think then, soon after I’d got down we sat down at our table, not our table, but, yeah, sat down on our table.  Then, I’m trying to think who came next.  I think next it was, erm, Matt and Rachael I think came next, yeah, Matt and Rachael came down next together, the two of them, probably a few minutes after, after me, I don’t think it was that long, that long after me.  And then Russell came down, probably about quarter to’ish, I think it was, probably sort of five or ten minutes after, after me.  And then it was getting quite late again and Dave, Fi and Dianne were nowhere to be seen, so Matt actually, I think it had got to the point when it was like ‘Oh Matt go and’ and Matt said he’d go back and chivvy them along.  I think Fi had actually been for a run which is why it had taken, why she was, they were taking longer.  Erm, yeah, so Matt went back, erm, but he actually met them coming down.  But I think because he was up he thought while he was up he’d go and have a listen just to check, you know, there was no noise from Grace.  I think he must have actually been a bit longer, I think we’d actually been there for about quarter of an hour before Dave and Fi, you know, all of us had been there for about ten or fifteen minutes before they actually appeared, so”.
4078    “So you got there then, Rachael and Matt have arrived?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Then Russell came?”
Reply    “Then Russell”.
4078    “And then after Matt had gone up to chase David and Fiona they arrived anyway?”
Reply    “Yeah, they all arrived, yeah”.
4078    “Can you picture who was sitting where on the table?”
Reply    “Erm, I was sitting next to Kate on one side and I think it was Rachael, I think it was Rachael the other side.  Erm, yeah, I think it was, erm, so it was Kate, me, Rachael and then I think, erm, I’m trying to think where everybody else was.  Erm, I think Dianne was next to Rachael, here.  I really can’t, I can’t really, I can’t picture exactly, but I know, I know I was next to Kate, that’s in my head, and I think it was Rachael the other side, the other side of me.  And I think Russell might have been the other side of Kate or Matt was next”.
4078    “Who or what were you facing?”
Reply    “I was facing the, erm, I was almost facing the bar area, so I was sort of, yeah, I had my, to where the apartments was, I was sort of perpendicular”.
4078    “Right”.
Reply    “Is that the right word, perpendicular?”
4078    “Yeah”.
Reply    “At right angles to it”.
4078    “Yeah, it is really difficult when you haven’t been somewhere”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “To picture it.  But unfortunately they won’t pay for me to go on holiday, so I’ll just have to try and imagine what I can”.
Reply    “Do you want me to show you?”
4078    “Yes please”.
Reply    “Erm, yeah, so I was sort of, if you think of that as, you see that bit, if you think of that as a round table, I was sort of here”.
4078    “Okay”.
Reply    “And I think Kate was that side and Rachael that side I think”.
4078    “So you were sort of further away from your partners, would that be right?”
Reply    “Erm”.
4078    “Can I give you a piece of paper?”
Reply    “Yeah, erm, so here’s the”.
4078    “The only relevance is it is so that we can see where you are coming from when you describe the evening”.
Reply    “Yeah, erm, so there’s the apartments”.
4078    “Yeah”.
Reply    “Here’s the road.  It’s not to scale at all.  So as you come in you’ve got the pool here and you’ve got a bit of, there still is a bit of tarpaulin there, this bit’s much further than it looks.  Erm, so I think there was tables along here and then we were sort of here, whereas I think other nights we’d been here because, as I said, I was putting the thing on the, the what’s it, there.  And I think the people Kate and Gerry were talking to were on that table there.  I think I was about here and Kate and Rachael.  I think Gerry was over here somewhere, because I know when the three of us sat down we sort of said ‘We’ll sit’ and I think Gerry sort of said ‘I’ll sit over here’, so it’s not, erm, I think, I don’t know why but.  Erm, I think Dianne was over here somewhere.  I think Russ was over here, I think Matt and Russ were there actually.  Fi might have been there and Dave there.  So that’s Dianne.  But I’m not a hundred percent on this, but that’s, but, yeah, I definitely know I was over this side”.
4078    “Well if that changes as you go through it if you could just let me know”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “We will call that JT1 if you don’t mind”.
Reply    “Masterpiece”.
4078    “Yes, a TANNER original.  Right, so where were we.  Everyone has finally come together at the table?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “And you were quite anxious about the time because you didn’t want to be putting everybody out?”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah, it seemed like we were getting later and later every night we were there”.
4078    “And you have already said that everyone was getting on well, there was no friction or anything within the group?”
Reply    “Uh hu”.
4078    “By that stage has anything changed?”
Reply    “No, not at all, no.  As I say, at this stage, this is when everybody was sat down and everybody was saying how well it had all worked.  This was the night when we were all saying that, so, no, there was nothing.  And we’d had a really, I think in some ways it had been the nicest day because the weather had been nicer, we’d all had the chance, you know, we’d taken the kids to the beach, we were all saying, you know, it was probably, it’s ironic, but it had been the best day of the holiday so far because, you know, we’d been able to do something with the kids and blah blah, so”.
4078    “And you said the day before that Ella had been really tired?”
Reply    “Umm”.
4078    “And they were both tired that evening?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Did the other couples discuss any of their children, anything worthy of comment?”
Reply    “Erm, no, I don’t think so.  I think, I think Kate and Gerry might have said theirs were tired too because normally they, as I say, normally they would have probably still, when we’d all been, after tea, but they’d actually probably gone to bed a bit earlier than normal I think.  I think when I’d said to Kate about Ella having a complete flip, I think, you know, she sort of said ‘Oh yeah, they were, they were tired’, but nothing.  I mean, again, I could be just making that up, to be honest.  But I think everybody was saying their children were tired, you know, because of having such full days, you know, I mean, they were sailing and doing all these things that they don’t normally do, so they were they were tried”.
4078    “And up until that point was everybody happy with the child care checks that”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “The checks on the children?”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah, I think so.  I think this night it was probably, we did checks more regularly early on than, than probably other, you know, or there seemed to be less time between checks.  And I think that’s because they were bringing the food a lot quicker because we were late, I think they were like ‘Right, lets get the food out so we can get’, not get rid of them, but.  So we were sort of, because I think when I went back to do the check it was probably less time after Russell had come than normal, you know, it wasn’t the strict half an hour, but I think it was because the food was coming and also I think with Evie not being quite, quite right, you know, we were making more, more checks.  And thinking about it now, looking at this, I was probably less confident in the monitor, by the position of the table, I mean, it was only a short bit but, than other nights”.
4078    “Did anybody else amongst the group mention that they wanted to do checks more frequently?”
Reply    “No, not, no, no, I don’t think.  No, I think they were more staggered, because other nights I think we’d all got there more or less at the same time or not over such a, but this night, because we’d all got there at such, erm, different times, you know, it was more, I think that’s why they were sort of probably a bit more staggered and at different, you know, not all going together at one particular time to do the check”.
4078    “More of a rolling check really?”
Reply    “Yeah, it was more of a, yeah”.
4078    “Right.  And you have already that Matt had gone off to chase up David and Fiona?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “But then subsequently you think he must have gone and done the check?”
Reply    “Well he did, he met them coming down the road, so he thought, because he was up, he just literally went and listened.  I know he listened at our window.  And I don’t know whether he went in to see Grace, but I know he listened at Grace.  And I don’t know whether he listened at Madeleine’s window at that point, but”.
4078    “Okay.  So from what you do know, from your perspective, I take it it was much the same as the rest of the evenings, everyone was in good spirits?”
Reply    “There was nothing, absolutely nothing to suggest, you know, we were just talking, you know, normally.  As I say, as I say, we were actually, I specifically remember saying ‘It’s been the best day of the holiday so far’, you know, there was no bad feeling between anybody or anything”.
4078    “By that time you had got to know Kate a bit more so you felt even more comfortable?”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah, we were chatty, yeah, so”.
4078    “What about the rest of the restaurant, you have already said that there was a couple there that Kate and Gerry played tennis with?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Who else was around?”
Reply    “Erm, I think it was, I think there was a, there was one man there that was there with his three children on his own, I don’t know whether he was divorced or whether.  Erm, and I think Gerry might have been on that table, that he, they actually asked, the two people that came, Gerry had spoken to originally, actually asked him to join them at some point.  I think they were like, this was the thing, they were almost on like their coffee by the time we got there, so I think, you know, he joined them for coffee, because his kids were playing in the play area, they were a bit older, his kids, they were sort of in their teens, well early teens”.
4078    “Right”.
Reply    “So there was, erm, yeah, there was them and they all, they joined together.  Erm, I think there was somebody on, there was another table back here and I think there might have been somebody on there but I can’t remember any, any details about them.  And then there were some people who had got sort of the, not great drawings, but you’ve got the bar area here which was enclosed and there were some tables in the side”.
4078    “Can you just write ‘bar area’ on that because I’ll forget”.
Reply    “Yeah, and there were some people inside because it was quite chilly by, by this, it was actually quite, quite cold”.
4078    “Okay.  Do you want to go on now?”
Reply    “Yeah, that’s fine, yeah”.
4078    “What time is it?  It’s twenty to one.  Or do you want to stop for lunch?”
Reply    “Erm”.
4078    “Because obviously the next part we’ll go into is the key”.
Reply    “Yeah, yeah”.
4078    “So shall we stop you there?”
Reply    “Yeah, that’s fine, yeah”.
4078    “What I’m saying is it’s lunchtime”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “No, but, you know, it is going to be quite intense the next one”.
Reply    “No, that’s fine, yeah.  Yeah, definitely”.
4078    “Okay, it is twelve forty and we will stop this bit”.

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