Duarte Levy..

Freelance journalist

Jane Tanner – Record Of Tape Recorded Interview IV

4078    “It is thirteen forty-eight on the afternoon of Tuesday the eighth of April two thousand and eight.  I am DC Sophie FERGUSON from Leicestershire Major Crime Unit.  And you are?”
Reply    “Jane Michelle TANNER”.
4078    “Thank you Jane.  We are here talking about Madeleine’s disappearance and we have already spoken, we have had three separate interviews this morning and we are just carrying on, going through the sequence of events, as far as you can recall at this length of time afterwards”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “And just before we turned these tapes off you said that you had spoken with Russell over lunch and you now realise your plan is wrong?”
Reply    “Umm”.
4078    “So if you just remember that?”

Reply    “Erm, Russell said he was actually sitting between, erm, Rachael and Dianne.  So I think, I’ve got Dianne there. So Russell was there.  And I think Dave, I think Dave might have been there and Fiona there”.
4078    “Okay.  So it goes then from you, anti-clockwise if you like, it is you and Kate, Matthew?”
Reply    “That’s Matthew, yeah”.
4078    “Fiona?”
Reply    “Fiona”.
4078    “David PAYNE?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Gerry.  Dianne.  Russell?”
Reply    “Yeah, and then Rachael”.
4078    “Rachael and then back to you?”
Reply    “Yeah, as far as I can remember.  Like I say, this bit might be, a couple of them might be the opposite way round, but as far as I can remember”.
4078    “Okay.  As far as you can say?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “And you have already said that you got to the restaurant and Gerry and Kate were there talking to the other tennis couple?”
Reply    “Umm”.
4078    “So they were at that table and there was another party or couple?”
Reply    “I think, I think, yeah, as far as I can recall”.
4078    “Okay.  And when you first came did you speak to Gerry and Kate?”
Reply    “Yes, yeah”.
4078    “And how were things?”
Reply    “They were fine, completely normal, yeah”.
4078    “And then everybody arrived at slightly different times but by nine o’clock’ish everybody was there?”
Reply    “Yeah, everybody was there, yeah”.
4078    “And Matthew had gone off and done a check?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Because he had been up to see”.
Reply    “Yeah, to chivvy up, yeah”.
4078    “Right, okay.  Now you have had your lunch, is there anything else that you need to say before we move on?”
Reply    “Erm, I don’t think so.  I think just to, I was thinking, one thing I didn’t mention is at the, I’m not sure when, when abouts in the meal, but I did have a conversation with Kate about, she’d said that she’d, Madeleine had said something strange about ‘Where were you last night when I woke up’.  And, as I say, I can’t remember where in the meal she said this, but she did sort of say, oh I thought she said I thought that was a bit odd when, when Kate said, you know, Madeleine obviously she did say ‘Where were you when’, you know, I think she said ‘When Sean and I woke up’, I can’t remember whether it was when two of them woke up.  So I think Kate was more worried that night, you know, whether leaving them was the, the right thing, or so to speak, so.  So you were saying then about the frequency of the checks.  I was just wondering if that was another reason, you know, why maybe the checks were more often”.
4078    “Yeah.  How did Kate seem when she mentioned that?”
Reply    “Fine, she was just sort of a bit, I think, you could see she was just a bit sort of concerned.  I think, because it was sort of like ‘Oh I wonder if she did wake up’.  I think she thought she hadn’t woken up really, Madeleine just was saying it.  But she did, yeah, you could tell it was, she was a bit sort of more worried, you know, than other, other nights there’d never been anything, but obviously the fact she’d said that, sort of”.
4078    “Put it into mind?”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah”.
4078    “And you don’t remember exactly at what point that was said?”
Reply    “No, I think it was fairly early on, but, I mean, I don’t know whether it was, erm, I would think it would probably be early on.  I think it was when, I don’t think everybody else was there when she said that, so that would suggest it was early on.  But I can’t, that’s, that’s a recollection, I can’t say for sure”.
4078    “And you know you had said on the Wednesday, I think it was the Wednesday night, yeah, you said that you had stayed later and had more to drink than the previous nights?”
Reply    “Umm”.
4078    “Do you remember sort of roughly how much you’d had?”
Reply    “No, I mean, we weren’t, you know, I mean, we weren’t sort of like roaring drunk, it wasn’t.  Erm, but I think just because we’d been there longer we probably had, I mean, I’d say I’d probably had four glasses of wine and then maybe the, I think at the end, I can’t remember what sort of a liqueur at the end, so”.
4078    “That is not a lot in the course of the evening?”
Reply    “No, I mean, over the, it wasn’t, it wasn’t loads, but, I mean, it was probably more than other nights probably”.
4078    “Okay.  Right, lets go back to the Thursday then.  Everybody has sat down eventually and I take it the food has been ordered.  Take me through then, as you can remember it, and take as much time as you need”.
Reply    “Umm”.
4078    “To remember in as much detail as possible, because the more you say the less likely I am going to have come back and ask questions later”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “So there is no rush, just in your own time”.
Reply    “Yeah.  Erm, so, yeah, I think everybody, everybody arrived about nine o’clock.  I think we ordered fairly, as soon as Dave and Fi arrived we sort of like ordered almost straight away I think.  And almost I think as soon after Dave and Fi arrived Gerry went to do his check, because they’d already been there since sort of half past eight, so, you know, sort of like it was half an hour, a half an hour check for them.  So he, yeah, he, he went off to his check and he was longer than a bit, because I can remember Kate sort of saying ‘Oh bet he’s put the footy on’, because I think there was a football match that night and she sort of said ‘Oh I think he’s probably’, erm, you know, ‘got side tracked and put the telly on and catch up on the score’, so he was gone a bit longer than normal.  Erm, and then I think we thought ‘Oh well the starters are going to appear any minute’.  So Russ had sort of come down about quarter to.  And I think at this point, I don’t know whether I knew that Matt had been and listened or what, so I remember saying to Russ ‘Shall I got and check’ and I remember at that time thinking ‘Oh can I persuade Russ to go and check so I don’t have to’.  But, no, so, you know, I’ll go and check at that point. So, timing wise, I mean, I think it was sort of five past, ten past, ten past nine, around, around that sort of time”.
4078    “From what I know from reading statements, Gerry was still absent?”
Reply    “He wasn’t there at that point, no, no.  So, erm, then I walked, so I just walked out the, erm, the Ocean Club bit and walked, sort of walked up the road.  And then Gerry was there, he was talking to Jez WILKINS in the road, well they were sort of, as I went by.  So I think I thought then ‘Oh that’s why Jez’, not Jez, ‘That’s why Gerry has been, you know, that’s why he’s longer than we thought’”.
4078    “Backtrack a little.  How long after Gerry had gone was it before you went to do your check?”
Reply    “Well I think it must have been, well it must have been at least five minutes, if not more, because, I say, because he was gone, before I actually left there had been the conversations about him being waylaid.  So, I mean, if, I think it must have been sort of five or ten minutes, five or ten minutes after he’d gone.  I can’t say for sure, but”.
4078    “And from the time when you obviously didn’t feel it appropriate to persuade Russell to go and check”.
Reply    “Yeah, it was my turn”.
4078    “From the time you left the Tapas Bar, when you are talking, try and put yourself back there”.
Reply    “Umm”.
4078    “It is a long time ago, I know, we have already discussed the feasibility of this.  But describe, not just that you saw Gerry up the road, describe what route you take and what you can see and what you can hear and whether it is light or dark and any other noises that you are conscious of”.
Reply    “Umm”.
4078    “I know it is a tall order”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “But just do the best you can”.
Reply    “Yeah.  Erm, I’m just trying to, well I’ve walked out of the, walked out of the, erm, the Tap, you know, walked sort of into the reception of the Tapas Bar and obviously walked up the road.  I remember I was wearing, because it was cold, I’d got Russell’s big, I’d borrowed one of his, erm, fleeces, so I’d got a big sort of fleece, it probably came down to about here, but then I’d got flip-flops on and cropped trousers, because I’d only got, I didn’t take jeans, I know I didn’t take jeans on holiday, and then.  Oh I’m sidetracking a bit, but that’s why I knew one of the pictures in the paper wasn’t from the holiday, because I hadn’t got jeans on the holiday with me, so.  Erm, yeah, and I’d got cropped trousers on and just flip-flops, so I can remember sort of walking, I couldn’t walk that quickly because I’d got these silly flip-flops on and I couldn’t walk that, that well in them, so to speak.  Erm, and I walked, I was walking up the road and I can’t remember exactly, I know this,  I know, I think Gerry thinks he was somewhere different to where I think they were standing, but I was fairly sure, as I walked up the road, they were standing, one of them was in the road and one of them was just on the edge of the pavement, but I thought it was on the side of the road that I was walking, but I know Gerry thinks they were the other side.  But I thought they were closer by, because as I walked by, I almost did go to sort of acknowledge them and I thought at that point ‘Oh they were cha cha cha’ and I did think, you know, I didn’t, I didn’t know whether they’d seen me or not, but I did actually go to acknowledge them and I think if they’d have been that far away I don’t know whether I would have sort of almost gone to say hello, but.  But they were talking quite (inaudible), so I just carried on, you know, up, up the road.  I mean, I thought they were, as you’re going up here, I thought they were more, erm, again I know this is where me and Gerry differ, but I thought they were sort of more near the little alleyway.  I think sort of”.
4078    “Is that the alleyway, sorry, would that be (inaudible)?”
Reply    “Yeah, sort of here.  I thought they were sort of round this sort of bit here”.
4078    “Yeah, so on the plan that you have drawn can you put a cross where you”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “I know you are uncertain because you think Gerry’s recollection is different, but as far as you can remember”.
Reply    “Well I think one of them was in the road and I think, I thought it was Jez in the road because he had the pram.  And I don’t know which, I can’t remember which way he was facing.  No, I mean, I think I remember in my statement I did say, but I can’t remember now which way he was facing.  And I thought Gerry was almost like on the edge of the pavement or just, just in the road sort of, but definitely sort of by that, sort of more by this alleyway.  I don’t think they were by the apartment gate, I thought they were sort of a bit further down, down the road than that”.
4078    “So where would the apartment gate be then?”
Reply    “Probably here I should think”.
4078    “And that would lead down to the roadside door of their apartment or the poolside door of their apartment?”
Reply    “That leads to the poolside door”.
4078    “Right.  So you think they were quite a bit further down?”
Reply    “I think, yeah, I mean, somewhere within this, I don’t think they were right outside the gate for sure.  I don’t, I’m not sure, but they were definitely, I definitely can’t remember them being right over here, purely because I know I did go to acknowledge them and I don’t think if they were over there I would have thought to acknowledge them.  Because it was almost like ‘Oh did I ignore them as I walked past’, you know, it was almost that thought in my head, you know, ‘Should I have stopped to say hello’.  And now obviously I wished I bloody had.  But, you know, sort of, so I think, I, I’m still convinced they were nearer to that side of the road than that side of the road”.
4078    “So you come out of the Tapas Bar and presumably you have walked along that way, have you?”
Reply    “Yeah, I’ve come out here, through the gate”.
4078    “And that is up the hill, is it?”
Reply    “And up the hill, yeah”.
4078    “And when you have gone past Gerry and Jez whereabouts have they been in relation to you?”
Reply    “If I’m walking this way, they were sort of”.
4078    “So they were to your right?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Okay.  Go on”.
Reply    “So, yeah, so I went past them, erm, up to the, and then walking up to the top of the road and then, as I got to the top, this person, somebody walked across the top of the road with, with a child.  And obviously at that point I just thought ‘Oh it’s somebody taking their kid to bed’, so to speak”.
4078    “Go back again.  Pretend I don’t know anything about this”.
Reply    “Okay”.
4078    “Pretend it has not been in the papers”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Or, you know, I know we have discussed it between ourselves before (inaudible)”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “But, as far as you can, try and tell me as though I am somebody that doesn’t know anything about this”.
Reply    “Umm”.
4078    “And you have walked up that hill, was it light or dark by that point?”
Reply    “I think it was getting, I think it was getting dark, I can’t, yeah, it was definitely, because the lights, the street lights were on, so it was definitely, because it was quite, erm, it was quite orangy, I think they were was sort of like a bit of an orangy.  It’s so hard to.  Yeah, the street lights were definitely on and I think it was, I think it was fairly dark by this time, because I think that’s why I was sort of thinking ‘Oh lets send Russell, send Russell back rather than’, well not, but, you know, I was sort of thinking ‘Oh I can’t be bothered to go up and check, I’m sure I can persuade Russell to go’, but then I decided to go myself, so.  So I think, I think it was, I think it was getting, it was dark”.
4078    “What about other people, what other noises?”
Reply    “No, I mean, there was no, apart from Gerry, well apart from Gerry and Jez there was nobody else around.  And I think when you went down to the, often when we went down to the, erm, Tapas Bar there was people then because it was earlier and I think a lot of people had said we’re eating earlier, so were often going home almost as we were coming down, so you would see people walking around then, whereas, as it got later, it did turn into more sort of a ghost town type, so.  So, yeah, I didn’t really see anybody.  I’d say, I think, again, which made me thought it was even odder, I think when I’d been to check other nights at that time I probably hadn’t seen anybody before, it was more earlier that you saw people carrying their children around”.
4078    “What time would this have been around?”
Reply    “I’d say it was around ten past nine’ish”.
4078    “So you have left the Tapas Bar and you have gone up that hill.  What is there, is there a pavement and a road there?”
Reply    “Yeah, there’s sort of like a pavement which is sort of almost like made up of, it’s not cobbles, but made up of small stones”.
4078    “Not ideal for flip-flop wearers?”
Reply    “No, because I do remember, I was almost looking at my, sort of not looking at my feet, but I was sort of padding, because obviously I was trying to get to do the check and get back as quick as possible as well, so I just thought ‘Oh I’ll just go and do the check as quick as possible’ and I did think, I was not struggling to walk in my flip-flips, but, you know, I wasn’t, I wasn’t striding”.
4078    “Yeah”.
Reply    “Erm”.
4078    “And, like you say, there’s a kind of orange tint to things?”
Reply    “There was, yeah, that bit I do, and thinking, I’m thinking that more from leaving the table, I think this bit, I can remember sort of being quite dark, you know, sort of by the pool, the pool lights and everything being, being quite dark”.
4078    “So your intention as you are walking up the road was just to check on Ella and Evie?”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah, just to check on them”.
4078    “Just your two?”
Reply    “Yeah, nobody else.  Because, well Gerry was there, so I thought he’d just checked.  Matt had checked when he’d, erm, been to chivvy up Dave and Fi.  And we never checked on Dave and Fi because they had their monitor, which they were quite happy with, so they didn’t check at all, so”.
4078    “So you were just trying to get to check your girls as quickly as you could and get back as quick as you could?”
Reply    “For the starters, yeah.  I mean, now you think.  But, yeah, that was, that was just in my head, just get there, check they’re okay and come back”.
4078    “Okay.  So when did you first notice Gerry standing there?”
Reply    “I would have probably noticed him as soon as I came, I mean, I don’t, this is not, I don’t think that distance is probably as far as that, you come out and he was, they were sort of, so almost, I’d probably say almost straight away.  Again, I don’t know, but I, I know people are saying I’ve not been on the road, but they were there and I wouldn’t know they were there if I hadn’t walked past, you know, you’ve got to see my frustration in this, and I know Gerry didn’t see me and Jez didn’t see me, but”.
4078    “You were there?”
Reply    “They were there and I was there”.
4078    “And you say you almost went to acknowledge them but they were so engrossed in conversation?”
Reply    “They were, yeah.  I mean, I don’t know whether you’ve met Gerry, but other people have met Gerry, and when Gerry is talking, it’s bit like I said earlier, that he is very focussed, he is a very focussed person.  And it doesn’t surprise me he didn’t see me, because if he’s talking he’s very focussed on what he’s doing at that stage.  I mean, obviously I don’t  know, I don’t know Jez, I hadn’t actually, I hadn’t had any contact with Jez through the week, I didn’t, you know, he wasn’t somebody we chatted to, so, you know, in terms of him recognising me or knowing me, he didn’t know me, so”.
4078    “And can you remember, as you past them or thought to acknowledge them, then you noticed they were deep in conversation, can you remember which angle you saw them from, which way they were facing?”
Reply    “No, I, phew, again, I would probably guess Gerry’s back was more towards me, because I would have thought if I’d have seen him I would have definitely probably stopped and said ‘Oh you’re in trouble, you’ve been long, we think you’ve been watching the footy’, you know, but.  Because I think that’s almost when I went to acknowledge them, that’s almost what went through my head, you know, is to sort of give a bit of abuse about the fact he’d been so long, but.  So I would imagine his, maybe his back was to me, but.  And, again, in that way, that would make more sense, because I don’t know Jez, so it’s not like I would have gone ‘Oh hi Jez’, you know, that way, so.  Yeah, I, I honestly, I can’t remember now which way they were.  But I do, I stand by the fact I’m sure they were nearer than right over here”.
4078    “Okay.  And did you hear what they were saying?”
Reply    “No.  No, not really.  Not that I can remember”.
4078    “Were there any cars around there?”
Reply    “Erm, umm, no, I don’t know.  I don’t remember.  I don’t remember walking past any going up here and I think I would have probably, if there had been I would have realised, because that would have obscured my view of the person walking, so I can’t think of, I can’t think of any, no”.
4078    “So as you are trying to remember it and you can think of yourself walking up that road and you have gone past Gerry and Jez”.
Reply    “Umm”.
4078    “Are you conscious of any other movement?”
Reply    “It’s, it’s too long now.  Erm, no, not really.  I mean, I was just walking up, you know, I was like just sort of on a, not on a mission, but I was just like, you know, on the way to, to check, so I didn’t notice anything either side.  The only thing I noticed a movement was when somebody walked across at the top”.
4078    “Go on to tell me about that then as slowly as you can?”
Reply    “Yes, erm, I was, I think I was nearing the top of the road, it’s a bit of a, I’m trying to think how, but I can’t really remember how much of a hill it is, but it is definitely a hill going up there, and just as I got to the top somebody did walk across.  And the thing that really struck me was the, erm, the bare feet.  And the thought that came into my head was, I’ll say when we’re in Leicester, our children were quite adaptable, and what we used to do is, we used to walk round to Dave and Fi’s house for, erm, the kids, for tea with the kids, the kids would play, we’d put them in a travel cot there and we’d sometimes stay a bit later and then carry the kids home, because it’s only, it’s like the next road.  And we’d wrap them in a blanket or whatever, but you could always, their feet would fall, their feet would fall out the bottom and you’d think ‘Oh they’re going to get cold feet’ because they’d always wriggle.  So one thing I thought was ‘Oh a bit of a bad parent like us, you know, that kid’s obviously being taken home’ or whatever.  And I think that’s all, you know, that’s sort of, erm, I think that’s where the sort of I thought ‘Oh’, and that was the only reason I really clocked it I think.  Because at that point I thought it’s a person taking their child either back from the crèche or, you know, just some father carrying their own child, so it didn’t really, you know, and that didn’t.  I’m making it sound like it really registered at the time, but it didn’t, that is literally, I thought ‘Oh’”.
4078    “That moment in time?”
Reply    “Yeah, I just thought that”.
4078    “That was in your mind?”
Reply    “Yeah, that is, erm, and I think at that point I did think as well, the way they were dressed wasn’t quite touristy.  As I say, I mean, I looked a right state because I’d got Russell’s big jumper on, cropped trousers and flip-flips and, yeah, it was quite, you know, sort of cold and, and they looked more like they were prepared for the weather, you know, sort of thing.  And I think when Jez, I think Jez had probably got shorts on and, you know, a jumper or something, and looked more like.  He just didn’t look quite like a, you know, a tourist, I suppose, or, so”.
4078    “Yes, us Brits abroad like to try and brave, if we’re on holiday we like to have,    wear holiday clothes, don’t we?”
Reply    “Well”.
4078    (inaudible)
Reply    “Yeah, and I think it was just that factor was, it just didn’t look quite, you know, it just didn’t look quite like a tourist on holiday or somebody you would imagine on a MARK WARNER holiday carrying their kid home.  As I say, this is all in hindsight”.
4078    “I know, yeah.  And also you said that, you know, your immediate assumption or not probably even thought about it that much at the time, but you thought he might have been carrying a child home from the crèche?”
Reply    “Yeah, well I think you did see people, I mean, not that late at night, and, again, that should have made me think more, but especially sort of, you know, earlier on you’d see them carrying children in pyjamas to the, the crèche where you can leave them at night and then pick them up again”.
4078    “Would that fit in with the direction he had come from?”
Reply    “Well, again, no.  Well, it would have been, I mean, at that time, you would of more expected him to be going the other way, coming back from the crèche maybe.  But he could have gone, if he’d have gone that way and then cut down, there is a way you could have cut down to the crèche, going that way, so”.
4078    “Okay”.
Reply    “So really, you know, at the time, I thought.  And I think I did actually think ‘Oh a bit odd’, but never in a million years would I have thought ‘That’s Madeleine’.  And I think, well Gerry was standing on the bloomin’ road, so I thought he’d, not thought, he’d just, he had just checked, you know, I thought he’d just checked”.
4078    “If you had have thought that was Madeleine at the time you would have said?”
Reply    “Well, yeah, if I’d have thought, yeah, you know, if I’d have seen it was Madeleine you’d have, you know, I’m not going to go ‘Oh there goes Madeleine’, you know, I would have shouted, but.  But, yeah, I know the Police think I’m a sympathetic witness and whatever, but I don’t know what I can do to”.
4078    “You can only say what you saw”.
Reply    “But I did see it, you know, I think that is the.  I’m sorry”.
4078    “It’s alright”.
Reply    “But, you know, it’s just the frustration of not being believed on this, it’s”.
4078    “Yeah (inaudible)”.
Reply    “No, but the best thing that could happen to me, apart from Madeleine being found, is somebody coming up and saying ‘That was me’, you know, ‘That was me walking across there’, because, you know, you know, I don’t want that to be Madeleine, but, you know, there’s no, but I’m convinced that was and, you know, people have got to, so I don’t know what I can do to make them believe that.  I’m sorry”.
4078    “Don’t worry.  Take a moment”.
Reply    “But, you know, I think it’s, I do, I’m not the sort of person that would make this up, I don’t want any limelight, you know, you’ve only got to look, ask people that know me, I’m not”.
4078    “You wish you hadn’t seen it?”
Reply    “I just, yeah, I do, I wish I hadn’t.  As I say, I wish I’d made Russell go at that point.  I really wish I hadn’t seen this.  But, you know, they have to, and, as I say, apart from Madeleine being found, the best thing that could happen to me is somebody coming and saying ‘No, you’re wrong Jane that wasn’t them, that was me carrying my child’, that is what, you know, I dream of happening, after Madeleine being found, you know”.
4078    “All you can do for now Jane is just say what you saw”.
Reply    (inaudible)
4078    “It’s alright.  Do you want to take a moment?”
Reply    “No, no, it’s just”.
4078    “You can only say what you saw”.
Reply    “Umm”.
4078    “And you can only do it as far as you can do it”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “You can’t add detail that you didn’t see”.
Reply    “No”.
4078    “Because at that time it was just a passing glimpse”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “And it didn’t really register with you until later on when things fell into place”.
Reply    “Yeah.  No, exactly”.
4078    “So, if you are ready”.
Reply    “Yeah, sorry”.
4078    “It’s alright.  I can fully understand why you have so much frustration.  And, in as much as the part where Gerry thinks he was standing somewhere slightly different to where you saw him, well that, you know, people do see things from different perspectives”.
Reply    “Umm”.
4078    “You know, we can take a statement from people, if an incident happened outside and there was a group of people watching it, everybody would have a different take on what they had seen”.
Reply    “Umm”.
4078    “And that, you know, it doesn’t matter.  You can only say what you can remember and as far as you can remember it.  And if it is different from how it was then things can be explained”.
Reply    “Well, I mean, just whatever, they were, they were standing there.  And, you know, just from, how I wouldn’t know they were standing there.  And if I was trying to make this up, don’t you think I would have made damn sure they saw me.  Why on earth would I say I saw them and then they turn round and say they didn’t see me.  It’s just, you know, it’s just, you know, I think that’s just, yeah, it’s just.  I’m not making this up”.
4078    “Because of the Case that this is and it has been in the Press a lot and you have received a lot of comment and a lot of unwelcome comment as well I should imagine, that is bound to reflect on how you feel about”.
Reply    “Yeah, I know, yeah”.
4078    “Things.  But our purpose today”.
Reply    “I know, I need to forget that”.
4078    “Is to go over again what you saw and not because we don’t believe you just because we need to go back through everything”.
Reply    “Yeah, I know, yeah.  But I just want, you know, obviously from my point of view, I really want to make sure that I am believed, because I am not lying on this, I’m really not, and I just think it’s important.  And I think that’s my frustration as well, if I’ve not been believed up to this point, I should have been asked this months ago.  You should have put, you know, interrogated me to find out if I am lying months ago, you know, not just think ‘Oh no, she’s made that up’ because somebody didn’t see me walk by, I just think that is the point I want to make and to live with that, knowing that’s not being taken into account, is hard.  Anyway, but, so I just want to make that point”.
4078    “ Yeah, but also, from our point of view, that has been taken into account what you have said”.
Reply    “Oh, yeah, I know, okay, I agree, yeah”.
4078    “It is not”.
Reply    “I know, the problem is, it’s just getting the Press and the”.
4078    “Yeah”.
Reply    “It all gets (inaudible)”.
4078    “Yeah, it does get distorted.  But, I mean, certainly from our perspective, that has definitely been taken into account”.
Reply    “Okay, yeah, I’ll stop ranting now, sorry”.
4078    “No, it’s alright.  I just don’t want you to feel that, you know, nobody is listening to you”.
Reply    “Yeah, I know, yeah”.
4078    “Because we have been”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Right.  Okay.  So you have seen Gerry and you have seen Jez?”
Reply    “So this person, he walked across the road and the things, I think the three things that struck me was the feet, purely for the reason, and that’s the reason I spotted them, the clothes were a bit, not what I’d expect and also they were walking quite, quite, they looked like they were, they weren’t running but it was a purposeful walk, so they were walking quite purposefully”.
4078    “Where were they, I was going to exactly, but exactly, in as far as you can remember?”
Reply    “They were sort of, I think I spotted them sort of in the middle, sort of here’ish or, I don’t, I mean, I can’t say for sure, but sort of more sort of from that angle and then they were carrying on that way”.
4078    “And was that, is there another pavement there, on the junction?”
Reply    “No, they were on, there’s a junction, this is sort of the road and they were walking along the side of the pavement, then I would then walk along”.
4078    “So they were on the same side that you were about to walk along?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Right.  And when you first became aware of this man holding the child, if you can try and picture in your mind, as I am sure you have done over and over again, and start from the top of his head and work your way down and tell me what he looked like?”
Reply    “You see this is where now I’m really, I don’t even know whether it’s worth doing this, because there’s been so much, since then I’ve had the, when they took me round for the surveillance to look at, and I’m guessing now it’s MURAT they wanted me to look at and, you know, all the other bits and bobs, I really don’t know, but I think I’d prefer just to stick with what I said in my original statement, in terms of the, because even, I mean, this is coming back to the sketch, even when I did the sketch, by that stage, you know, things were, were murky, I needed to that sketch that first night, I mean, they took me in to do the sketch, but they only had, erm, front facing software, so you know, and at that point I said, you know, is there, can I do, because the clothes and everything was the thing was the thing that was the most in my mind then and I can remember saying to the chap I met on the stairs earlier, I think it’s (inaudible), is it?”
4078    “Yeah”.
Reply    “Because he took me in the car back and forth and I can remember saying to him on the way back ‘Look, is there a way I can do a sketch with clothes, you know, do you have software or any way that I can do a sketch of the clothes or a side, a side view’.  And he sort of said ‘No, we don’t have that feasible, you know, feasibility or availability’.  And I said then ‘Can I do that when I go back to the UK’, you know, because at that point it was in my head and it would have been, and they were the bits that I think would have been recognisable to get down on paper.  But at that point it was like ‘Oh no, we can’t do that, we don’t work in that way’.  Which I can understand and, you know, now obviously I think ‘Oh I should have pushed and really pushed’, but at that point you rely on, you don’t, you know, you’re just in such shock and you just think ‘Okay that’s the way things do’, but”.
4078    “Yeah”.
Reply    “But, I mean, I think, so the things that I’m happy, that are still in my head, that still stick in my head is the hair and it was longer, it was sort of longish and, erm, I don’t know how to (inaudible), but each, each, almost the hair was long, the bits of hair were long, so it was long into the neck, you know, sort of in, when people have a number one or whatever at the back and it’s shaved, not shaved up, but, you know, sort of layered up, this was more long into the neck, so sort of long, each, each individual hair was long, erm, and dark, it was sort of quite dark and glossy, that sticks in my head.  And sort of the dark, dark clothes and quite billowy, not billowy clothes, but quite baggy, sort of they seemed, erm, not ill fitting but quite baggy clothes, like not jeans, but trousers sort of not Chinos but not Farrahs either, but sort of baggy’ish sort of ill fitting more than.  And they’re the bits that I remember quite vividly sort of”.
4078    “And what colours?”
Reply    “Dark colours, but again it was, I think it was quite dark, so dark, sort of darkish jacket but then a more, a lighter trouser but a horrible colour, again this is, sort of a yellowy dark browny, horrible, but not, not a nice colour trousers, but then I wonder whether that was the lights making them look, making them look more of a sort of a mustard, it wasn’t mustard because that’s too bright, but it was just like a, as I say they weren’t nice, they weren’t the sort of clothes I’d expect somebody on a MARK WARNER holiday to, they was, I can’t think of the material, I tried to describe this before, but sort of a cottony material but baggy”.
4078    “You know the artist’s impression that you”.
Reply    “Umm”.
4078    “That has been circulated a lot.  How happy are you with that?”
Reply    “Erm, phew, reasonably, but, I mean, it was the best I could do after that time, I mean, it was more, the hair was the one thing on that that I wasn’t completely happy about but we couldn’t get it any better because it was the sort of, I almost think that might have been slightly too long or just, but on the whole I think the actual sort of style and everything was, was fairly right.  I mean, I tried to do that though from my original description that we wrote down, sort of well afterwards (inaudible) we tried to get all our thoughts down and I tried to do it as much as I could from that, because six months on, as I say, there was, I think the problem is there’d been so much put into my head since then, like doing the surveillance and, you know, looking at people on that and things, it was very hard to, to do it”.
4078    “I must come back and talk about that when we have finished going through everything”.
Reply    “Yeah, that’s fine, yeah”.
4078    “What about the height of the man?”
Reply    “Erm, phew, well, you know, I did it on the, I sort of pointed out where it was on the person that interviewed me originally and, erm, sort of, not six foot but taller than me but sort of not, but not, I’d say I think it was sort of about five foot nine, five foot ten.  But I think that had got confused in translation because I don’t know what it was in metres and they sort of then transferred that into metres from my statement, so I think it came out actually lower.  But I think it was sort of like five foot nine, five foot ten, as much as I could, so”.
4078    “Okay.  And his build?”
Reply    “Medium, well sort of just normal build.  As I say, I think the clothes were quite baggy, so I think they made him look more bigger than he probably was, but.  And also he would have been, his shoulders would have been out, you know, sort of.  So, I think, erm, yeah, medium’ish, a medium’ish build”.
4078    “And you said earlier you thought he was, I can’t remember what word you used, walking, you didn’t say briskly, but”.
Reply    “Purposefully”.
4078    “Purposefully”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Did you notice anything else about the way he walked?”
Reply    “Not really, just that it was very, as I say, it did seem quite a very, you know, a purposeful.  And also the way he was carrying was sort of, it’s the way I would pick my children up if I didn’t want to wake them up, you know, if you’re sort of picking them up to put them into another bed or something, it is the way I would pick them up if they were asleep, because it’s, normally you would imagine you would carry them over your shoulder or something.  So, again, in hindsight, that was probably a bit of an odd way to be, you know, be carrying, but”.
4078    “Is there anything else about the man that you can remember now?”
Reply    “No, I mean, I would be so worried now about things that are put into my, I think the only two things that I’m still absolutely adamant on is a lot of hair, sort of a lot of thick, thick hair and sort of dark and baggy, well not, ill fitting clothes I think is the sort of, you know, sort of is the two things that still, I mean obviously I get this image in my head all the time and they are the two things that are still, are still, are still there”.
4078    “And then think about the child again, as much as you can see of that child in that split second, and tell me what you saw?”
Reply    “Well, again, I mean, and this is, I think initially I couldn’t really bring, I could only really remember the feet.  But the day after, when we had, they, at the interview, the person that was interviewing was really pushing me to try and, you know, remember any more details, and the one thing that I could really think was, erm, a turn-up of some description.  And I don’t know whether this made it into my statement, but there was, and this is the thing that convinces me it was her, there was, erm, sort of the pyjamas were, there was some sort of, I thought it was a turn-up, but some sort of design on the bottom of the pyjamas.  And I did say it in my first statement and in my second statement I can remember saying it again and, erm, the translator in there, because I said ‘I don’t know whether this made it into my first statement or not’, but the translator sort of went ‘Oh yes, I can remember you going like this’, because I was moving my hands up, but I was sort of talking about something at the bottom of the pyjamas.  Because, from my own point of view, and I think, you know, ‘Oh was I trying to’, I can think that I would think ‘Oh maybe a little girl would be wearing pink pyjamas’, so, you know, if you were subconsciously putting things in your head, I can think pink pyjamas, yes, but I wouldn’t think of some detail around the bottom of the pyjamas as a specific thing to, to mention”.
4078    “And when you noticed the detail was it in any colour?”
Reply    “I don’t, I didn’t know, I thought there was sort of a pink flowery bit on, bit on it, but, no, I mean, the actual frill itself or turn-up, as I thought it was, I couldn’t think of the colour, but I thought there was pink sort of flowery and sort of like liney bits on the bottom, so”.
4078    “And, overall, what colour would you say the pyjama bottoms were?”
Reply    “Erm, I can’t, I can’t remember, I mean, I, I can’t remember, well I can’t remember now, but I think they were sort of whitey but with this, with this pattern on, but then some pink.  That’s, that’s what I thought at the time.  It’s harder because now I know what the pyjamas were so I can’t”.
4078    “It is very difficult”.
Reply    “I think that is hard for me to actually”.
4078    “Yeah”.
Reply    “To think now because I can, I can see them now”.
4078    “Because you know what actually they would have been if it had have been Madeleine?”
Reply    “Yeah, exactly, yeah, so I can’t really go back to thinking what they were”.
4078    “It is very difficult.  What about the child’s feet then, what can you say about feet, if anything, other than that they were uncovered?”
Reply    “Just that they were uncovered and it looked like they were, you know, they seemed to be asleep.  I mean, they was definitely, you know, they were, as you would imagine if the child was asleep.  But, you know, that’s all, that’s all I can, like I say, it was more just the, the fact they were, you know, you could see them”.
4078    “And the way you have held your hands like that, were the feet side-by-side like that?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “So the child would have been held on its back?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “And you say that they were very relaxed as though they were asleep?”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah, they were not, there was no, you know, there was no struggle or any, yeah, they just looked like they were asleep.  So, again, if you’d imagine somebody had been just, you know, taken out of their bed or something you’d imagine they’d be, but, no, they were very, you know, asleep”.
4078    “How long do you think it was that you had them in sight?”
Reply    “Erm, phew, not that, I mean, I did, I think I did go like that after they’d gone, so it probably wasn’t, phew, it’d be seconds, wouldn’t it, it’d be just like, phew, a few seconds and then as I got to the top I think I went like that, which I think is when I noticed more that they were walking quite quick.  But, no, I mean, not, you know, not, not that long at all”.
4078    “I know this seems like an obvious question, which I think I know the answer to, because I’ve seen the artist’s impression, did you see the man’s face?”
Reply    “No, no, not, no, I mean, just the hair, well not, not that I could remember to give details, give details to”.
4078    “How far away from you were they at the closest point?”
Reply    “Phew, as, I mean, it’s hard to, sort of thing, but I think I was sort of halfway, it’s probably sort of five metres, I mean, I’m trying to sort of think in terms of this room, but sort of probably just further than that wall, probably sort of five to ten metres id’ say, if, I don’t know how far it is to there, but”.
4078    “I would say probably about, I am just guessing, but two and a half to three metres?”
Reply    “Yeah, I’d probably say sort of five, five to ten metres, well probably five, nearer five”.
4078    “So about as far away again the other side of the wall as you are from this side?”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah, probably, yeah, sort of, as when I first, when I first saw them”.
4078    “I don’t know why I was looking over there, it’s like I was (inaudible)”.
Reply    “I know.  But, yeah, I’d say probably, and then obviously I was walking as they were walking, so it would have probably, I don’t know whether it would have gone less or, but, I mean, I wasn’t like staring, you know, it was sort of like a”.
4078    “A passing interest, yeah?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Right.  Okay.  Are you okay?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “So the man and the child have moved off down the road towards, do you know where that goes towards?”
Reply    “Erm, well it’s just this road, I think it’s, erm, I’d be here, so they’re walking up here.  Say that’s the top of the road there, so they’re walking along here”.
4078    “And what is that in the direction of, do you know, where does that ultimately go to?”
Reply    “That sort of goes, that goes up to the road, that’s the main road out, well to get out of the town or so to speak.  You sort of go up here and then back and that will take you to, to the crèche”.
4078    “Okay”.
Reply    “And the sort of car park is here.  These bits here are sort of the car parky bit”.
4078    “And when you say you saw them walk down and you might have turned back as well, whereabouts were they at the point where you turned back?”
Reply    “Erm, I’d say probably about there.  They were, well round this bit, they weren’t as far as the car parky bit.  I’m trying to picture that area there.  But they weren’t, they were probably, by that stage, probably about three times that distance or”.
4078    “Yeah”.
Reply    “You know, sort of a bit more than, than that distance away”.
4078    “On the same side of the road?”
Reply    “The same side of the road as, yeah”.
4078    “And was there anything about the way he walked or the speed that he was walking that made you think he was about to change direction?”
Reply    “No, no, no, he was just sort of, just walking”.
4078    “So you are unable to say where he stopped or?”
Reply    “No, he was just walking on that way as I looked and then I’d, I’d sort of went the opposite way, went the opposite way to carry on the check”.
4078    “So thinking then about the last glimpse you had of him, when you turned back and you saw him and you say he was not yet at the car park, he was on the same side of the road.  Are you happy with the way you have described the lighting that there was a kind of an orangy tint?”
Reply    “Yeah, as much as I can remember.  I mean, I don’t, it was, I’m sure it was, it was, it was dark, it was getting, it was fairly, I’m sure it was fairly, phew.  I’m trying to think.  Yeah, I’m sure it was fairly dark by that, it was, the street lights were definitely, I’m sure the street lights were definitely.  I can’t say, but I think it was, I think it was getting fairly dark”.
4078    (inaudible)
Reply    “Yeah, fairly dark.  I’m sure, phew, I might be completely wrong, but”.
4078    “As far as you can say at the moment, that is what you think?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “And again I am going to ask about cars”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Were there any, did you notice any cars around?”
Reply    “There were cars around but, phew, because you’ve often got them, say, sort of down this bit here.  But I can’t remember what they were or I didn’t notice anything that looked odd, you know, no car that seemed to be standing out from anything else, so”.
4078    “No”.
Reply    “No”.
4078    “So you didn’t notice any car headlights or noises from cars?”
Reply    “No, no, because I think, you know, if I’d heard sort of a car screech off quickly at that point, I probably would have, would have taken notice I think”.
4078    “And, what was I going to ask then.  Yeah, if you were, you don’t need to say anything at the moment.  But go back in your own mind and think of what you have just told me again”.
Reply    “Umm”.
4078    “You have just concentrated on the visual aspect of what you saw”.
Reply    “Umm”.
4078    “Go back over it and have a think if you heard anything from the point where you have passed Gerry and Jez to seeing this man, what could you hear?”
Reply    “Phew, I can’t think of anything, there was nothing, no, nothing that comes to mind, there was nothing, as I say, I can’t remember hearing a car or, no, nothing, I mean, it was quite, apart from, as I say, it was very quiet really around there”.
4078    “What about the man and the child, did you hear his footsteps?”
Reply    “No, not that I can remember”.
4078    “Not that you were conscious of?”
Reply    “No, no, not that I’m conscious of, no”.
4078    “Okay.  So you have glimpsed, you know, turned back and see the man disappearing off down the road with the child and, at that time, didn’t really think anything of it other than the child might have cold feet?”
Reply    “Yeah, and just”.
4078    “And later on did you think it was significant?”
Reply    “It was a, yeah, it was sort of came as soon as, as soon as they said that came, buff, straight.  As soon as I’d seen it there it was forgotten and then, buff, as soon as Rachael said”.
4078    “So then you are back on track going to check Ella and Evie”.
Reply    “Umm”.
4078    “Tell me from there what happened?”
Reply    “So I just carried on walking the opposite way into and then walked through the car park and into our apartment through the back, through the roadside, the roadside door.  And, like I say, I just went in, it was all, they were both, I actually went into the room and checked and they were both quiet.  And then, as I say, I just walked straight back to the restaurant.  I didn’t see anything.  I didn’t see them there when I walked back, they weren’t, there was nobody that I spotted and Gerry and Jez had gone by that stage as well, I think they’d gone back into, well Gerry had obviously gone back into the restaurant and I don’t know where Jez had gone, but I didn’t see them again after, after that point”.
4078    “How long did it take you to check on your daughters?”
Reply    “I don’t know, (inaudible) question, erm, I was probably only in there, phew, a minute or a minute and a half literally.  I’m trying to think if I went to the loo or anything and I don’t think I did, I think I just literally went in, erm, I don’t know.  I think I literally went in and looked at them and then, and then went back.  As I say I was almost conscious that it was just a quick check before, it sounds like I wasn’t bothering and I was desperate to get back for the food, but, you know, that was sort of just like a quick check before the food came”.
4078    “Yeah, okay.  Right.  So did you take the same route back to the Tapas Bar?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “And on the route back can you remember seeing anybody?”
Reply    “No, I have to say, not, not at all.  And Gerry and Jez had gone by that time, so”.
4078    “And what was going through your mind as you walked back, anything, that you can remember?”
Reply    “Erm, no, I don’t think so.  I mean, this person wasn’t really etched on my brain, it was just, erm, I think I was just thinking ‘Oh the kids are alright’, you know, ‘I’ll go back’”.
4078    “Tell me what happened then from there and I will try not to interrupt you?”
Reply    “No, that’s fine.  Erm, so I went back, erm, we just carried on with the meal.  And then, I think, erm, I can’t remember anything odd, you know, within that, that time.  And then I think, it’s been, I think, I can’t remember who said ‘Oh time to check again’, I think it actually might have been Kate that said ‘Oh it’s half nine I’ll go and do a check’.  And I think Matt said at that point, Matt and Russ said ‘Oh we’ll go, do you want us to look in on’, erm, on, you know, ‘on Madeleine and Sean and Amelie’.  As I say, I don’t know, I wasn’t really part of this, I don’t know how it, who actually said ‘It’s time for a check’, but I can remember sort of, erm, them saying to Kate ‘Oh do you want us to put our head in’.  And I think because Gerry had only, you know, probably had been in there a bit longer, she probably thought ‘Oh yeah’, you know, and let them.  I think Russ had checked earlier in the week once on Madeleine and Sean and Amelie.  But I don’t want to say who checked with him because I don’t, I don’t know that, but”.
4078    “Yes, I mean, you know from what you did really”.
Reply    “Yeah, so, so Matt and Russell went back to, erm, to check and I think they went first to, I don’t know, whether they went first round the back to our apartments, because to get to check on Sean and Amelie they would go through the pool side door, whereas, I think Matt and Rachael’s they would go on the roadside doors to do the checks, so.  And that’s when Russell found Evie was awake so he stayed there with Evie.  And then I think Matt checked on Grace and then went and checked on Madeleine, Sean and Amelie and then went back to the restaurant”.
4078    “During the time obviously that they were doing that, you were sat at the table?”
Reply    “Yeah, we were just sat at the table, yeah”.
4078    “And at what stage in the meal were you at then?”
Reply    “Phew, that must have been just before the mains came I think.  Because I think that might be why they thought they’d go and check, because I think it was just before the mains came.  Because I know when Matt came back I was sort of halfway through my main meal, because he said ‘Oh Russell stayed because Evie’s woken up’.  And so I think wolfed down the rest of my meal so I could go back and take over so Russ could come down and finish his.  So I’m guessing it must have just been before the, before the mains came”.
4078    “And can you remember what was being spoken about at that stage?”
Reply    “Erm, no, I can’t, I mean, there was, we had a joke the night, earlier, a bit rude this bit, but we had a joke earlier in the week that, erm, when Russell had been, stayed back in the room, I was going to go back and relieve him, so I think we were joking about that ‘Oh Jane’s off to relieve Russ again’, so that was, I mean, that was the only thing I can think, that was just a, you know”.
4078    “So it was all good spirits?”
Reply    “Yeah, it was good spirits, it was like that joke again ‘Oh Jane’s got to go and relieve’, erm, so, yeah, there was nothing, you know, there was nothing odd or anything about it, it was just, just joking”.
4078    “And because it will affect your recollection of what happened and things, how much had you drank that night?”
Reply    “The thing is, that night I probably drunk less than a lot of the others, because I’d been at the table probably only for, well an hour, forty minutes at that, you know, not very long at all, by the time we all sat down and actually ordered the wine it was almost nine o’clock anyway because everybody was so late, so, you know, I wasn’t, I hadn’t had that much to drink and because we’d had more to drink the night before I think we were drinking more slowly anyway.  And I hadn’t had, whereas normally I would have probably had a beer on the beach, I can actually remember”.
4078    “Orange juice”.
Reply    “It was an orange juice that we’d had on the beach.  So, no, I wasn’t, at that, at, especially, well, I definitely roaring drunk at that point?”
4078    “And what about the rest of the group, can you comment on what they were drinking?”
Reply    “Erm, no, we just tended to stick with, because the wine was included, we tended to stick with just the, the wine that was given, so.  I’ll tell you, the person who drank most of the wine was actually Fiona’s mum, Dianne was the, was the biggest drinker of the lot of us actually, which is quite”.
4078    “It’s coping with all those children around her”.
Reply    “Yeah, exactly.  So, no, I mean, nobody was, nobody was that drunk that night at all”.
4078    “Right.  And you already mentioned that you think it was that evening, earlier on in the meal, that Kate had mentioned that Madeleine had made that comment?”
Reply    “Yeah, the day before”.
4078    “About her and Sean being awake?”
Reply    “Yeah, the day before”.
4078    “And you also mentioned, I think, that that was the evening where you had all commented on how well the holiday was going?”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah, we’d, erm, it was, I think we’d all said it, because, well, as I say, the weather had been better, we had been to the beach and we’d just had a really nice day and it was almost like, you know, this is, you know, it’s been an ideal holiday for, you know, for all of us really at that point, so.  There was no, you know, under currents of anything being wrong or anything, it was, it was just totally normal”.
4078    “Right.  Okay.  So Matthew has gone to check, Gerry has gone to check, you have gone to check and now Russell and Matthew went together to check?”
Reply    “Erm, yeah, so Matthew”.
4078    “Russell and?”
Reply    “Russell and Matthew went, yeah”.
4078    “And Russell ended up staying behind because Evie wasn’t very well?”
Reply    “Because Evie wasn’t, yeah, because she’d woken up”.
4078    “So you rushed your meal?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “So you could then relieve Russell?”
Reply    “Yeah, relieve Russell, yeah, sorry.  I can see the headline there”.
4078    “Yeah.  Okay.  Do you remember if Matthew made a comment when he came back, other than telling you that Russell had stayed behind?”
Reply    “Erm, no, not that I can remember.  He just, you know, he just, erm, I think Kate, I think maybe Kate said to him ‘Is everything alright’ and he said ‘Fine’, I think, you know.  I mean, she was, I think I remember her saying to him, you know, ‘Is everything okay’, but that was nothing out of the ordinary.  But, no, I can’t think, he just said, you know, he just said ‘Oh Russell stayed because Evie’s not very well’, you know, and the inevitable joke, you know”.
4078    “Yeah, a bit of innuendo”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “And then what happened next?”
Reply    “Erm, so I think the waiter has took Russell’s, because Russell’s food was there, so they said ‘Oh we’ll take that away’ and they kept that, they said ‘Oh we’ll take that away and keep that warm’.  So I’d finished mine quite quickly, probably, I think I was a fair way through or it didn’t take another four minutes or five minutes, and then I went back, erm, to find Russell sort of, you know, with, Evie was awake and I think he’d put her in the bath, because I think she had been, I think when he’d been in she had actually been sick, so he put her in the bath and he put the sheets all in the washing machine that was in the apartment. Because that’s another thing about the sheets, but we’d been doing washing all week, because you know what it’s like with kids, you end up with, so they were in the washing machine.  Erm, yeah, and then he, so I then, we were probably in there together for, I don’t know how long, five minutes of whatever, and then he went back to finish off the rest of, erm, well finish the rest of the meal”.
4078    “And what can you remember after that?”
Reply    “Erm, well Evie was still up, so I was just with Evie in the room and I think it was getting quite and Russell had sort of said ‘I’ll go and finish my meal and then I’ll come back’.  So the next thing I can sort of really remember is thinking ‘Oh I wonder why he’s not’, you know, I think I was thinking ‘Oh he’s got chatting, he’s not gonna’, you know, ‘he’s not gonna come back’, blah, blah, sort of thinking along those lines.  So I don’t know whether it was the first time I’d looked out of the window to check, but I know it was the first time I thought, because I think it was odd, I looked out of the window to check, to see if I could see them still there, and that’s when the only person I could see still at the table was, erm, Dianne and everybody else seemed to have, seemed to have gone.  Which I thought was a bit odd, because I thought even if Russell would have come back, you know, I wouldn’t have expected everybody else to, to  have left at, you know, left at that point, so.  So, I mean, that’s the first time I thought ‘Oh’, you know, ‘What’s happened’, because I couldn’t, you know, I could see them actually sitting in the, sitting in the restaurant. But I don’t know how long that is from, but I think it must have been a fair while from, because I was actually thinking ‘Oh he should be back by now’, sort of actually, you know, to actually look out of the window”.
4078    “And what happened after that?”
Reply    “Erm, I think that’s when I went back to the roadside, I sort of looked out of the roadside door.  I think I heard some shouting, erm, so I actually went to sort of put my head out the roadside door.  And I think it was Rachael that I saw first because she had run back I think to check that Grace was obviously okay.  And then I think Rachael said, you know, she told me what had, you know she said ‘Oh Madeleine’s gone’ or, you know, something along those lines.  And that’s, it was almost straightaway as she said that I sort of had that, this person sort of came into my head at that”.
4078    “It was that quick was it after you?”
Reply    “It was almost, yeah, I was sort of like, oh, it just sort of seemed a bit, the connection made, you know, I thought ‘Oh that person was a bit odd’, he sort of seemed a bit, a bit odd.  But I think at that point I was obviously, I think I actually might have wondered, wondered and, you know, I was sort of thinking ‘Well I’m sure it couldn’t have been’, but it did come that immediate into my mind”.
4078    “So what happened from then?”
Reply    “Erm, well I think I was in a bit of a, I mean, obviously, erm, the next thing I can remember is seeing Kate and Fiona, they came running from the direction of Kate’s flat, say sort of along the, sort of it’s, I’ll try and describe how it is, but as you come into the flats there’s sort of a passageway and there’s flats above so there’s a roof and there’s a passageway, it’s really badly described, but they came running along there and they were shouting ‘Madeleine’ and they were like looking in the stairwell and what have you.  And Fi started running upstairs and that’s when I ran to Fi and said what I thought, you know, I said ‘I think I’ve seen somebody’.  I didn’t want to say to Kate at that point, which might sound odd now, you know, ‘Oh why wouldn’t you say straight away to Kate’, but, you know, the thought of telling the mother of a child that you might have seen being carried away is, it’s too horrible to even say.  So I just said to Fi, erm, you know, ‘I think I might have seen somebody a bit odd when I came back to do one of the checks’.  And I don’t know whether she, I mean, she was just sort of like, I don’t know whether she took it in properly, but, erm, and then they just carried on, carried on the searching.  They were sort of running around, I mean, I just stayed, erm, me and Rachael just stayed with, in our own, but we were sort of out in the alley, in the sort of stairwell outside our rooms, and we were sort of staying with the kids at that point, so we weren’t actually involved in any physical running around, searching”.
4078    “Did you stay sort of pretty much near to your apartment all night?”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah, well Evie was still up at this point so I’d sort of got her, she was still awake, so, I’d sort of, well I’d got her, I was holiday her but sort of just standing outside the, the door of the apartment mostly, I didn’t really move.  Rachael, because Grace was asleep, she was more moving around more, trying to, you know, see what was happening.  But, no, I was more or less at the bottom, as I say, at the bottom of the stairs, I’d come down”.
4078    “Who else did you speak to?”
Reply    “I’m trying to think of the order, it was sort of like, it was Rachael first, then it was Fi and I can’t remember when Russell and Matt came back, they came back at, erm, tut, I don’t know whether they came back first or I told them or who else was there, but as soon, the Police, when the Police came, I know Rachael went straight away to get them to say, so that I could tell the GNR, I think, yeah, the GNR, what I’d seen, but I don’t know if I told anybody else, I can’t remember when people like Sylvie, who was the translator, I’m not sure when she arrived whether it was before the Police arrived or after the Police arrived or whenever, but”.
4078    “But you told the Police when they came?”
Reply    “Yeah, when they arrived Rachael I think went and got the GNR and I told the GNR chap and then when the PJ actually arrived they came and got me to go and talk to the, the PJ”.
4078    “Were you able to then show them sort of in real terms where you had seen the man by actually physically taking them and showing them?”
Reply    “No, they didn’t, they didn’t take me, the only time I ever showed them where I saw it is when (inaudible), but the chap on the stairs here again, brought me back in the middle of the night from, erm, erm, from doing the sketch, so this was like the second, the night after, so this was quite late, it was like three o’clock in the morning, erm, after coming, well about three o’clock in the morning after coming back from trying to do the egg with hair sketch, I said to him then.  I said ‘Can I show you where I saw this person’, because the Press had all gone by that stage and the rest of the day there’d been obviously quite a lot of Press there, but they’d all gone.  So I actually took him then and said, you know, ‘This is where, this is where I saw him’, but at that time in the night all the, all the, you know, I, I honestly can’t remember what I, you know, exactly what I said, but, but I just said I’d seen somebody and they just sort of wrote it down and that was, that was it really”.
4078    “Just to comment on the egg with hair sketch and I know what you are referring to because I think you have mentioned it to me before, but because of the lack of software they produced this image of”.
Reply    “Yeah, they couldn’t do a face”.
4078    “It was a blank face, wasn’t it?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “With hair on?”
Reply    “With just a bit of”.
4078    “And you refer to that as the egg with hair?”
Reply    “That’s the egg with hair, yeah, sorry”.
4078    “Well I knew what it was but I thought somebody later on listening to this wouldn’t”.
Reply    “Yeah.  No, so that’s”.
4078    “Right.  How are you doing?”
Reply    “No, I’m alright”.
4078    “Are we carrying on?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Do you want a break?”
Reply    “No, I’m fine, yeah, no”.
4078    “Do you want to go back over anything again?”
Reply    “Erm, I don’t think so, because, I mean, to be honest, that part of the evening, between, erm, I can’t really, but I can remember seeing some of the Nannies, the only other thing I can remember probably before I spoke to the Police is some of the, I think when they realised she was missing, MARK WARNER sort of got everybody searching and I can remember some of the Nannies coming to the door and they took my number, my phone number, my mobile number and said ‘If we hear anything we’ll give you, we’ll let you know’ and that was three of the Nannies.  And Evie was still up at that time because I can remember them sort of, you know, saying ‘Oh hi Evie’, blah, blah, blah.  Erm, and I’m saying to them, you know, I was in a complete state at that point and saying ‘Oh I think I’ve something’ and them just saying ‘Oh, don’t worry’ or whatever, but, but I don’t, I can’t remember what time of night that is, but that might have been before the Police came as well or just after the Police, but they’re the only other real people I can remember talking to”.
4078    “Okay.  Did you go to bed at all that night to get some sleep?”
Reply    “Not until, it was probably about, I think about half four’ish, yeah, we tried to, tried to go to bed, I think purely because we knew in the morning we’d be asked for statements, so it was like (inaudible) sleep at all but it was like try and, try and get some rest to function in the morning”.
4078    “What about Russell (inaudible)?”
Reply    “Well him and Matt they were doing the, they were, I think they were sort of searching, I don’t know where they searched, but they, they were actually sort of running around actually looking farther afield, so didn’t really see them much at all.  I think that they did come back and as I say I can’t remember when they came back but I remember them coming back and then they went off again.  And then I think they, Russell was there when I spoke to the PJ, because I can remember Russell coming in with me when I spoke to the PJ, because there was Russell and Gerry was there as well in the apartment when I spoke to the PJ.  And that was the first time I’d ever been into their, into Kate and Gerry’s apartment through the whole week, I hadn’t, it might seem like, but we hadn’t really been into their apartment before”.
4078    “Sorry, was that on the night that Madeleine had disappeared?”
Reply    “That was at three o’clock in the morning after she’d disappeared, yeah”.
4078    “Okay.  Well tell me about that part then, how did you come to go into Gerry and Kate’s apartment?”
Reply    “Well when the GNR people came, so the first lot of Police, the local Police came, erm, I spoke to them and I think that was through the translator, which was, I think she’s called Sylvie, she’s the Head of Housekeeping or something, she was doing the translating at that point.  So I’d spoken to the GNR Police and then when the PJ came, they came to get me to talk to them to say, to say what, what I’d seen.  And then I can remember the same GNR person saying to me later on in the night ‘Oh have you spoken to the PJ’ and I had by that stage, so”.
4078    “So when you went into Gerry and Kate’s apartment who else was there?”
Reply    “Erm, I think there was Russ, I think Russell came with me and there was Sylvie who was the translator.  I can’t remember which, there was some, there was a PJ chap was sitting on the, by the table.  And there was Gerry who was standing by the, the bedroom door”.
4078    “And how was Gerry at that point?”
Reply    “Oh he was just, well obviously, obviously distraught.  And I think it was quite hard for me to be saying at that, you know, looking in his face and to be explaining what I’d seen, at that point was quite hard because, you know, Gerry was obviously standing there, I don’t know whether, and you sort of think ‘Oh God, here’s me, if I’d tried to stop them this wouldn’t have happened’ sort of thing.  So I think I did feel sort of a bit obviously guilty at that stage even though I didn’t know whether it was anything, but obviously you think ‘Oh bloody hell, what if I’, not stopped it happened potentially”.
4078    “And what was Gerry’s reaction to what you said?”
Reply    “Well I don’t even know whether he took it in, I mean, he was just, he was, you know, obviously just standing there looking absolutely horrified, so”.
4078    “And where was Kate?”
Reply    “I don’t know at that point, she wasn’t, she wasn’t in the, she wasn’t there.  I don’t know whether, I think they had taken the twins out of the room by that stage, so I don’t know whether she was up in Dave and Fi’s room”.
4078    “Did you make any observations about, erm, did you go into the room where the children had been sleeping in Kate and Gerry’s?”
Reply    “No, no, I just literally went into the first bit, so here I think the PJ guy was sitting on a, the table was there, so I just literally sort of went into there and then out again”.
4078    “So you can’t comment on the positioning, the lighting or anything within the children’s room?”
Reply    “No, no, I didn’t, I’ve never been in that room at all”.
4078    “Okay.  When was the next time you saw Kate?”
Reply    “The next morning when we were being picked up by the PJ to be taken into, for the, for questioning.  They had gone up into, erm, Dave and Fi, well decamped up to Dave and Fi’s room.  There was lots of people running about and it was almost like, you know, I’ll just, not keep out of the way, but, you know, it was almost like, we didn’t feel we could, not we didn’t feel we could go up there, but it was almost like, you know, I don’t know how to put it into words, but, you know, you just sort of, I don’t know how to say this, it almost sounds like we were keeping out of the way. which is not what I’m saying at all, but, you know, they were so distraught, it was how do you talk to somebody like that, especially because we don’t know them that well, so they’re closest to Dave and Fi, so we almost like left Dave and Fi, you know, to cope with the emotional side of it, I suppose, is the best way of putting it.  And, again, you think I would be going ‘Oh I’ve seen somebody, I’ve seen somebody’, but I’ve told the PJ, you know, and the thought of standing there and talking to Kate about what I’ve seen is just too horrible to, you know, think about at that stage.  So, you know, that’s, that’s why I hadn’t talked directly to them at that stage”.
4078    “And when was the first time you did talk directly to them about that?”
Reply    “Erm, well Gerry was there when I was, so, I mean, I knew he knew from that.  I don’t, the first time, I think apart from, so we got picked up in the morning and taken to the Police Station and then they were all waiting, because I think my interview was the longest that day, so they were all there when I came out of my interview, so that was the next time, erm, I, I saw them, but, I mean, I don’t think we actually talked specifically about the person I saw at that point”.
4078    “Can you remember what Kate’s reaction was when you, well I am assuming now that somebody else would have given her the information?”
Reply    “Yeah, erm”.
4078    “Did you ever have a reaction from Kate and Gerry about what you had seen and how you felt about what you had seen?”
Reply    “Not a, I mean, we hardly saw, in those first few days we hardly saw them at all really, you know, because they were so, they were busy obviously with the Press and with everything else, so I can’t actually remember a specific time that, I think it was, it was actually a few days later that we actually sat down and sort of I actually told them directly what I’d seen.  I think you, you know, you assume they know and I think at that stage I was still trying to convince myself that what I had seen hadn’t, didn’t have the significance which I think it did now, you know, and I think, I think that was sort of almost, I was hoping, you know, still hoping it didn’t have a significance”.
4078    “So you were kind of swept up in events after that I should imagine?”
Reply    “Umm”.
4078    “You were taken for interviews and you mentioned this surveillance thing, how long after?”
Reply    “Oh that was a long time”.
4078    “Did you have to go back to Portugal?”
Reply    “No, no, it wasn’t that, it wasn’t that long after, that was more than a week or so after, after all of this.  I think, just going back a bit, over again, this is something, I think when I realised the true significance of what I’d seen as well was almost like a couple of days afterwards when, erm, erm, I was talking to Fi about the pyjamas, because again it seems madness now why I hadn’t asked Kate and Gerry before this what the pyjamas were like, but it’s all sort of rha rha, you know, so I didn’t know what, what Madeleine’s pyjamas were before this.  And I’d actually read in a paper that they were white, it was in the Telegraph, I think it was the day afterwards Dianne had bought a Telegraph paper and in there it was saying she was wearing plain white pyjamas, so I think when I read that I almost thought ‘Oh maybe I have got it wrong’, you know, because I’d, out of everything, I thought ‘Oh they weren’t just plain white’, I thought they had got some sort of thing on it.  So I think it might have actually been the next morning, which would probably be the Saturday morning, I think I said something to, about oh, to Fi ‘Oh what were the pyjamas like’ and she actually described the pyjamas and she sort of said ‘Oh no that is what they were like’.  And that was, I think that was almost the moment when I couldn’t convince myself anymore that it wasn’t that, you know.  And then that’s, again, it’s sort of sounds, in hindsight, it all sounds like a long period of time, but I think that was when I thought ‘No, that was definitely’, you know, when she described what they, it was almost like ‘Well that’s exactly what I have described to’, you know, ‘to the Police the day after’”.
4078    “So in your own mind you couldn’t quite talk yourself out of it”.
Reply    “No, that was then and, I mean, and Fi said she could see the, you know, the horror on my face as I sort of realised that, it was sort of then, that was like ‘Well, no, I can’t convince myself anymore that it wasn’t that because this is’.  I mean, I think I was fairly certain anyway, but that was, I couldn’t convince myself then that it wasn’t”.
4078    “So the Friday was taken up with the Police basically?”
Reply    “Yeah, we were there, yeah, quite late and then I think we came back and the second lot went, so Russell and Fi and Dianne went I think when we got back”.
4078    “And you said that Kate and Gerry’s time was pretty much taken up with the Police and with the Press and all the events that?”
Reply    “Yeah, we hardly, we hardly saw them at all.  I think we, you know, probably saw them once for five minutes when they were going to pick up Sean and Amelie or something, but, you know, and they were obviously so distraught, I mean, Kate was just crying, it wasn’t like, it wasn’t for a chat, you know, it was just sort of a, so there was, you know, it wasn’t the time, at that point it wasn’t the time when I felt like I could turn round and say ‘Oh what pyjamas was she wearing then’, I know that sounds ridiculous now, but”.
4078    “It didn’t feel appropriate?”
Reply    “It didn’t feel appropriate at the time that I saw her to, to ask that, you know, ask that question”.
4078    “How long did you end up staying in Portugal for?”
Reply    “It was two weeks”.
4078    “So you were due back on, you were due to have flown back on the Saturday, the fifth?”
Reply    “The Saturday, yeah, and we flew back on, well the Thursday, it was actually two weeks from the day, from the third, so, whatever”.
4078    “About the seventeenth?”
Reply    “Yeah, about the seventeenth, yeah”.
4078    “Right.  And can you summarise what you did then, between the third and the seventeenth?”
Reply    “Yeah, I mean, it’s a bit like groundhog day really.  There was the interview on the day after and then, I can’t think it was that night they came back about two, well about half one, to pick me up again to go back to do the sketch, so I think that was the night of the fourth or it could have been the fifth, but I think it was the night of the fourth.  And then, erm, we did, I think I was re-interviewed again a week afterwards, actually on the Thursday a week afterwards, erm, and that was a long one, that was the one that sort of went into the middle of the night, so that was, yeah, that was the Thursday after that.  And then, I can’t remember exactly what day the surveillance was, but then there was the, the surveillance when, erm, they took me round the back of the van for the surveillance day and I think that was probably, maybe the Tuesday or the Monday of the week before we went back”.
4078    “Okay.  And can you just go on to tell me a bit more about that surveillance?”
Reply    “Yeah, erm, well I was actually talking to, I think it was the, it was some of the people that Kate and Gerry brought in, I was actually talking to them about what had happened at that point.  And Bob SMALL rang, erm, rang me on my phone and sort of said, well he scared the living daylights out of me, because rather than saying ‘The Portuguese Police want to talk to you’, or you know, ‘I want to pick you up to see the Portuguese Police’, he said ‘I need to pick you up and take you to see the Spanish Police but you can’t tell anybody not even Russell’ and all this, so it was sort of a bit and because he’d said Spanish Police, I thought there was some sort of a strange conspiracy going on, so it was like, oh, but, I mean, he just got”.
4078    “Got it wrong”.
Reply    “He just got mixed up.  But that made me even more suspicious because it was like, so I think at that point, I think I actually spoke to Stewart then, because I thought, I didn’t even know who Bob SMALL was at that point, so it was like, you know, and that, we were obviously worried about the Press and everything at that point, we thought it could be anybody, you know, trying to ring, and at that point I thought it could even be the person I saw ringing.  So, erm, we, erm, so, yeah, and I did tell Russell where I was going, because I thought ‘I’m not just going and getting in a car with somebody who is taking me to see the Spanish Police’.  So Russell, we walked, so I arranged to meet Bob SMALL in a car park at half seven or something at night or whatever it was, so Russell and I walked up to, erm, to meet Bob SMALL and, by chance, erm, we walked up, we’d missed the throng of Press that were at the top of the road, we actually walked up by Robert MURAT’s house and he came down in his car, in his van at that point, stopped, and he knew Russ, he’d met Russell earlier in the week, so he actually jumped out to say ‘Hi’ to Russell and he was showing us, erm, things in the back of his car as to what he was doing with the, erm, because they’d set up a stop where people could come and give their own evidence”.
4078    “Yeah, I can remember that”.
Reply    “So he’d actually jumped out and I’d never, I’d never, I hadn’t met him at this point, so I didn’t really know who he was and I wasn’t really taking it in because I was worried sick I was about to be abducted by the people”.
4078    “By the Spanish Police?”
Reply    “And taken to the Spanish Police, so I was a bit sort of like, you know.  Erm, and so we stopped to talk, that was probably a couple of minutes, and he was trying to show us all this stuff, but I was, at that point, I was thinking ‘Oh shut-up I need to go and meet Bob SMALL’”.
4078    “Do you remember his car?”
Reply    “It was the green, it was the green, I think it’s a green PASSAT, he was in a green, it’s the one that had been used for the, erm, post, the what’s it, you know, the anonymous information post where people could, because that’s what he was showing us, he was actually showing.  And I remember thinking at the time ‘He’s very keen to show us’, you know, ‘show us what he was doing’, but, you know, we thought ‘Oh great’, but.  So we then carried on and I met Bob SMALL and Russell wrote down the number plate of the car just in case I was taken away.  And, erm, then Bob drove me up to where, erm, the rest of the team were to do the surveillance.  Erm, so I went off in the back of this like refrigerated, well it was pretending to be a refrigerated, erm, van and took it round to the point on the road and obviously, in hindsight now, I realise they were probably calling Robert MURAT to try and get him to walk across, across the top of the road so that, you know, I could see.  But it was a bit odd because there was a car, where we were parked there was a car that moved just at that point that he appeared and then two other people walked by, so I didn’t really, but I didn’t even recognise it as the person I’d been talking to five minutes before, well, you know, half an hour before, so.  Erm, and then, erm, then went, I think because it has gone a bit wrong because this car had been there and then tried to set it up elsewhere, but again I couldn’t really see, I couldn’t really see that well and, you know, it didn’t look, it didn’t jog, jog any memories”.
4078    “Now you are left with that mental image in your head about the man carrying the child”.
Reply    “Umm”.
4078    “And you said, you described his hair quite well.  Having seen MURAT then and obviously in the papers since, could you link the two of those?”
Reply    “I don’t think so.  I mean, I don’t, phew, I don’t, I don’t think it, no, there doesn’t, there’s no, but then the person I see in the paper doesn’t really look like my recollection of the person I met on the way to meet Bob SMALL.  It’s really annoying because normally I would have probably taken more notice but I was so worried about what I was going to do, because I didn’t know at this point at all, I didn’t really take any notice, but I think it was too short and I remember it being, being long into the neck and not so.  Again, I don’t really, when I saw Robert MURAT outside his house he looked quite little to me, but then when you see him on the telly he seems quite bit, so I can’t, again, I don’t think the build, the build was right, I don’t”.
4078    “So you don’t feel, in your heart of hearts”.
Reply    “No”.
4078    “You don’t feel it was the same person?”
Reply    “No, I don’t, no”.
4078    “Okay.  So we have gone through the events of Thursday the third and you have gone through quite chronologically what happened there and we have moved on and very briefly covered what you did the remaining period of your time at Portugal”.
Reply    “Umm”.
4078    “I think, unless there is anything you want to say at this point, it is probably a good time for a break”.
Reply    “Umm”.
4078    “So that I can go back through my notes and ask, you know, questions that we haven’t already covered”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “You can reflect on what we have talked about, think if there is anything else that comes to mind”.
Reply    “Umm”.
4078    “And then we will take it from there”.
Reply    “Okay”.
4078    “Is that alright?”
Reply    “Yeah, that’s fine”.
4078    “Is there anything else you want to say at this point?”
Reply    “No”.
4078    “Okay.  It is nine minutes past three”.

Filed under: Documents, Madeleine McCann, , , , , , , , , , , ,


January 2009


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