4078 “Right it’s sixteen twenty nine and it’s the afternoon of Tuesday the eighth of April in the year two thousand and eight. This I think is our fifth interview and I’m DC Sophie FERGUSON from the Major Crime Unit and you are?”
Reply “I’m Jane TANNER.”
4078 “Thank you Jane. We’ll carry on, well I say from where we left off, we won’t, we’ll go over some things that I want to just clarify with you.”
4078 “Firstly, the (inaudible) label should be attached to your plan that you’ve drawn which we refer to now as JT one, so can I just ask you to sign that please there. And whist we’re talking about plans, this is a copy of exhibit reference DM two, that refers to whoever it is that’s drawn it, it’s their initials. Now we spoke about where you were, sorry where Gerry and Gez were when you saw them.”
4078 “If you just take a moment to get your bearings on that.”
4078 “So let’s see, if I get you to bear with me.”
Reply “They were somewhere, I think they were somewhere in this area here and I think more to my side of the road than the other side of the road but, so somewhere sort of here-ish.”
4078 “Okay. And the man that was carrying the child you saw him…”
Reply “Sort of about here.”
4078 “When you first saw him?”
Reply “Yeah sort of was about here and I was probably here-ish.”
Reply “Do you want me to write JT no these?”
4078 “Please yeah.”
Reply “G and G.”
4078 “And can you just do the same on this one as to which one of those you think is Gerry and which is Gez.”
Reply “Err I think that’s G there, I think I thought Gez was, Gez was in the road and Gerry was more, sorry my writing’s scruffy, sorry.”
4078 “That’s fine, yeah. Is there anything else? I think that’s it isn’t it, I think that’s the only relevant parts. Can you think of anything else?”
Reply “No I don’t think so.”
4078 “Okay. So Gerry and Gez, as far as you can say, were near to where it says ‘gate’ on that building?”
Reply “Yeah but I think sort of somewhere between the gate and the alley, and the alley way, sort of within that area.”
Reply “I can’t remember exactly, but it is more, more in that sort of, between the gate and the alley way.”
4078 “Okay. I might have to use this again later on but, right, so that’s the first thing I needed to do. While we’re talking about the man with the child and seeing Gerry and Gez we mentioned the street lighting.”
4078 “How much of a bearing do you think the street lighting had on your perception of colours?”
Reply “I don’t know, I’ve often thought quite a bit, purely because the colours seem quite horrible in terms of, I say the trousers are horrible, they didn’t, they were quite a nasty err yeah they weren’t a nice colour trousers. So err but I don’t know, I mean I think it was, I’d have been, I was thinking in there I was trying to remember again what you know how dark it was or how you know and it was, I really can’t remember, but twilight definitely, it’d had twilighted to dark and err as I say with the pink part of the pyjamas I’ve always wondered whether that was a little girl, is it, are you going to plant into your head the pink pyjamas. It was the bottom bit of them that gives me the most thought in my own head that it was Madeleine. So I don’t know, I feel, I thought I saw pink pyjamas and I thought I could see colours but I don’t know, it was fairly orange so I don’t know.”
4078 “Okay, so you think it was pink but you accept that it may not have been, the colour may have been distorted or it might have been such the power of suggestion I suppose.”
Reply “That could have been that for me because the pyjamas I really tried to, it was in the interview the next day when they really pushed me you know I think you call it cognitive interview or whatever, really pushed me to get an idea of you know more details about the person and it was then that you know sort of the description of the pyjamas was more in my head than I’d initial, it was mainly the feet as an initial thing.”
Reply “But err so I don’t know, I may, that is the one I don’t know maybe that was power of suggestion but I thought I saw a pattern on the bottom.”
4078 “Yeah but then if that’s soon after the time.”
Reply “With, with a turn up, and the turn up I mean I can’t stress this enough, that is the bit that makes me think so much that it is the same pyjamas.”
4078 “I’m going to go through with you in a minute your description from your first statement…”
Reply “Right yeah.”
4078 “And see if you’re still happy with, you know…”
Reply “Yeah, that’s fine.”
4078 “Because you said earlier you think that would be your best description.”
Reply “No, definitely, yeah.”
4078 “Right. The, I think we asked, I did touch on if you heard anything when you saw the man walking along with the child and when you’d seem Gerry and Gez.”
4078 “And in those few minutes there that passed, or probably a few seconds even, and asked if you heard anything. Specifically, did you hear any car doors?”
Reply “Not that I can, not that I can remember.”
4078 “Because I think you said to me earlier that you can’t remember hearing anything else.”
Reply “No there’s nothing that, there was nothing that, because I think if I had heard something, there was nothing that’s triggered me to think oh what was that noise.”
Reply “So no, I didn’t.”
4078 “Okay. The, your proximity to passing the room where Madeleine was sleeping.”
4078 “And the fact that you, she was on the ground floor and you walked, you must have walked past her room three, three times I think we’ve…”
Reply “You don’t actually walk past their bit of the room because err have you got any pictures just to sort of show?”
4078 “Is that good enough or not?”
4078 “I’ve got some pictures here actually yes, photographs.”
Reply “That’s, this is Madeleine’s, is that Madeleine’s room?”
4078 “Yes I think so.”
Reply “Yeah, err I don’t think they’re any use. No, because when you walk round the top of the road you sort of walk round here so you pass, so this is a car park and you’ve got another wall probably three, three cars distance from there which is the road, which is the main road, its hard to describe, err so you walk round here and along this bit of road here so that’s, that’s, that bit there is a shutter, as it says.”
Reply “So you walk past here but within this space here it’s this car park and I think there was room for at least two cars, if not, there must have been because I can remember when the dogs were there. There was two of the dog handling cars.”
Reply “In this space. So you walk past here and there’s a wall here, there’s another wall like that.”
Reply “At this area, and where I go into, when I went into my apartment I go sort of down here and then walk across this car park but its, its back here.”
Reply “So you don’t actually walk directly past that bit at all.”
4078 “Right, so my understanding was wrong because I was thinking you’d be walking right out here.”
Reply “No, no not at all.”
4078 “So there’s this sort of, barriers between their apartment and where you’re walking.”
Reply “There’s a big car park here.”
Reply “And this car park is in this space, which I think is actually bigger than it shows on here. There’s err I’m trying to think if there’s any footage you might have seen on the TV but there’s, you know, there was at least, there was at least room for two big cars which had the dogs, dog handling people in it.”
Reply “And there’s another wall here as you walk along and then I would come in here and there’d be, you sort of, the way you go in, I actually go in, this is the hard to describe bit, there was Kate and Gerry’s apartment, Matt and Rachael’s, there’s another apartment and there’s a stairwell that sort of was in front of our door.”
Reply “And I actually went that way round the stairwell to get to our door because the door’s that way so you never, I wouldn’t, you know, just don’t get a view of that, that window particularly because you’re right…”
4078 “So you’d have to go out of your way to go back to that one?”
Reply “I’d have to go all the way in, round my bit and then all the way…”
Reply “Along a little passageway to get back to there.”
4078 “Right, presumably that’s why Gerry, well you can’t answer for him, but why Gerry and Kate left their other door open because it was more accessible to the open that way to check them.”
Reply “Err yeah I mean they could get round this way but they would have to come in that way then come back so it was a lot, it was a lot quicker for…”
4078 “And I think, I can’t remember whether we covered this earlier, did you check anybody else’s children throughout your holiday?”
Reply “No, I never went into another apartment, I listened err earlier in the week, I’d had sort of after I’d been I’d listen outside this window and the other window but I never, I never actually went into another apartment.”
4078 “Okay. So on your journeys that evening, on the Thursday evening when you walked past there to go and check your children, A, you had no intention of specifically going…”
Reply “No I didn’t go to there at all, no.”
4078 “And then, did you notice anything different about the…”
Reply “No, no I didn’t, I, you couldn’t, you can’t hardly see it you have to, I think it’s actually quite a lower level, I think where the road is, is actually higher to where the apartments are as well if I remember rightly so you’ve sort of got that wall there but you’re stood a bit higher up as well, so.”
Reply “And if it’s just no, I don’t think there’s any lighting down this bit, there’s actually a roof, if I remember rightly, again our bit there’s a roof sort of the floor above actually comes out like that so it’s actually quite dark as well.”
Reply “In that bit there so…”
4078 “So had the, had the shutter been disturbed? You probably wouldn’t have noticed…”
Reply “I wouldn’t have noticed, no.”
4078 “Unless you’d specifically think (inaudible).”
Reply “If I’d specifically gone to listen.”
Reply “I would’ve seen it but because Gerry had just checked I didn’t you know, there was no, to go in specifically.”
4078 “Okay, thank you, that’s clarified that for me at least anyway.”
4078 “Right, the points that are left then are obviously the outstanding questions from the Portuguese, which I’m going to cover first before I go on to read the descriptions from your statements.”
4078 “Well as soon as I can get my pieces of paper in order. Okay as I say the majority of these questions have been covered so these were little added sequence, I’m just going to ask the ones that I know have been left outstanding.”
Reply “Yeah that’s fine.”
4078 “When you, ah, when you saw Gerry and Gez…”
4078 “I know we’ve covered that they were up to your right and you were going to acknowledge them but they were so intently involved in their company that…”
4078 “In such, in such, they were absorbed in their conversation.”
Reply “Deep conversation.”
4078 “So you didn’t acknowledge them in the end, at what distance from them were you when you passed?”
Reply “Yeah, I don’t know I think, I mean again it’s hard because I’ve spoken to Gerry and he thinks it’s further away but I think they were sort of, I’m trying to…”
4078 “You need wheels on that don’t you.”
Reply “I mean I think I sort of walked past, do you know how wide the pavement was, I walked past, and I think they were sort of, I think sort of almost, I mean it’s ridiculous they didn’t see me but they were sort of almost where, they were very, they were close enough for me to say, to have try and say you know think I could say hello.”
4078 “Without having to raise your voice?”
Reply “Yeah, otherwise everything, you know, so I mean even if I was starting from the other side of that, I’m trying to think how big the path was, but yeah I was walking up the path and they were, I think they were very…”
Reply “Very, quite close.”
4078 “So within a couple of metres?”
Reply “A couple of metres, yeah two, yeah, two, three metres I think.”
4078 “And you said already that you thought Gerry had his back to you…”
Reply “Yeah I think…”
4078 “As far as you can remember?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah.”
4078 “And Gez may have been facing you but you can’t really remember.”
Reply “I can’t remember which, I’m trying to remember, because he obviously had the pram I’m trying to remember which way the pram was facing but I, no I can’t, no.”
Reply “Again, I almost think I can remember it pointing down the road but if he was going back to his apartment it would have been pointing up the road so I don’t know, but.”
4078 “Your mind’s trying to make sense of what you even know.”
Reply “Yeah, no, yeah so I don’t know.”
4078 “And you, obviously you can’t remember whether or not Gez saw you?”
Reply “No. As I say I don’t think they did see because as I went to acknowledge them and they, they didn’t sort of say hello back or anything.”
4078 “Yeah. I think I asked you the distance, the time it took to get from the Tapas to your apartment, which I think you said about a minute and a half.”
Reply “Yeah, yeah a minute and a half or two minutes I don’t know.”
4078 “And would that have been the length of time it took you on that occasion when you passed Gerry and Gez and saw the man? Would that have been about a minute and a half to get there?”
Reply “Err yeah I would say, I mean I was walking fairly sharpish as I said so yeah.”
4078 “And what sort of length of time would it have taken you to get back after you’d done your check?”
Reply “Err about the same, you know I didn’t dawdle back or stop to talk to anyone.”
4078 “You didn’t skid down the hill or anything?”
Reply “No I didn’t, so, no it was uphill, so.”
4078 “One of the questions here is why didn’t you, we kind of already have covered this, why didn’t you warn the MCCANN’S immediately about the man you saw, assuming that because you didn’t see the relevance of it at that point?”
Reply “Well I thought Gerry knew because he was there and, well I didn’t want to tell Kate within sort of ten minutes of Madeleine being missing because it just didn’t seem the right thing to say to her to say oh I’ve just seen somebody walking off with potentially somebody err and then after that I hardly, as I say I thought Gerry, Gerry was there when I was talking to the PJ so he would have known from that and after that I hardly saw them, or I never saw them in a state when I felt I could you know raise it so to speak.”
4078 “I understand from what I’ve seen in the press that Gerry and Kate would go running, or Kate would go running definitely.”
4078 “And after Madeleine’s disappearance did you see them running at all?”
Reply “I saw them go, yeah it was quite a few days afterwards they did go, yeah I did see them, I think I saw them coming back or, yeah. I think they were just wanting to let off steam and to be honest (inaudible).”
4078 “In the days prior to Madeleine’s disappearance did you check on your children and what were the arrangements? Well we’ve covered that, sorry I didn’t mean to read that question. During your stay at the Ocean Club apartment did you ever leave your doors or windows open?”
Reply “Err not as far as, not, not as far as I know. I’m fairly, I can’t say definitely we didn’t forget to close the patio door one time when we went out but we didn’t knowingly leave any, leave any doors or windows open.”
4078 “And you already said when you’d left the girls there you made a point of making sure it was all…”
Reply “We made a point and it was definitely a point of being deadlocked.”
4078 “And the shutters were always down in their room?”
Reply “No I don’t think we touched the shutters the whole time we were there.”
4078 “Okay. Can I ask the telephone questions before we go to what you say in your other statements okay”.
Reply “Yeah, yeah”.
4078 “Right. Now you may or may not want your phone at this point”.
Reply “I don’t know if (inaudible), turned it on just in case”.
4078 “I’ll read the number out to you anyway and see if it makes any sense to you, the number is 917453319 and it’s”.
Reply “And it sounds like one of the Policeman’s that I was given, so I’ll just check up, I’ve still got one of the Police numbers in here certainly, or it could be, wait a sec, 969174092 was it”?
Reply “No, that’s the one”.
4078 “It ends in 319”.
Reply “319 erm, what’s the name of the Consulate guy that’s 964244697 I know”.
4078 “It is a Portuguese number”.
Reply “Yeah. No the only one I’ve got is the Police, just check (inaudible)”.
4078 “But it’s a number that I think you rang and text her that twenty five to eleven on the evening of the fourth, so that would have been the Friday evening”.
Reply “Right. Texted erm did (inaudible) only thing I can think is, did Dave and Fi have a Spanish (inaudible), Portuguese mobile (inaudible) I don’t know”.
4078 “We’ll perhaps come to that one”.
Reply “Yeah, no I can’t think what it’d be”.
4078 “The (inaudible), the user of this telephone number 01271 870915”?
Reply “That’s my mum”.
4078 “Your mum and what’s her name”?
Reply “Marion VANN”.
4078 “And the question is, why did you ring her on the fourth”?
Reply “To tell her what was happening”.
4078 “Next number is 01392”?
Reply “That’s a Exeter number”.
Reply “4269, oh I think that might be, is that a pre school over there”.
4078 “That would sound about right”.
Reply “Yeah I think it would be a, don’t know if I’ve got the number on here any more because erm she’s gone to school now but erm the only per, I can if it’s, you know I think it must be erm Stoke (inaudible), I can only think that it’s a pre, pre school number, I don’t know if that makes sense but”.
4078 “And that was rang on the second of May, do you remember ringing them from Portugal”?
Reply “Oh yes it was to say, cos I hadn’t actually told them, yes it would be Stoke Hill Pre School cos erm, cos we’d been off, she’d been off the week before because she’d been in Hospital, I hadn’t actually told them we were going on holiday that week, so I was ringing to say that she wouldn’t be in that week as well”.
4078 “Next number’s a mobile number and it starts with 44 because they do when they’re abroad don’t they”?
4078 “But it would normally be 07771 925891”?
Reply “Erm could you say it again sorry 0”?
Reply “I think that’s my sister (inaudible)”.
4078 “Katy VANN”?
Reply “Katy MASON, 815602 no, erm, that number rings a bell but (inaudible). Can you tell me when that was, just so it might help me to”
4078 “Yes erm twenty seven minutes past nine on the second of May, twenty seven minutes past seven on the second of May in the evening”.
Reply “So that would be on the Wednesday, is that a text or a”?
4078 “Yes it was a text yes”.
Reply “What was the last three numbers again sorry”?
4078 “891, have a look under, under your mum’s listing”.
Reply “Right. Yeah mum mob”.
4078 “Yeah that’s on there”.
Reply “(Inaudible), I don’t know what that would, that would probably just be say we were having a nice time or whatever”.
4078 “Right, this one, it’s a mobile number 4, +44 7941 022462 and you texted them on the fourth, which was about half past ten, twenty to eleven time”?
Reply “Sorry these numbers are going out of my head, what’s the last three numbers again”?
4078 “I know it’s difficult when you’re just listening to them, it ends in 2462”?
Reply “2462, I’m trying to think who, erm Lisa who’s a friend from Exeter and she’d just seen me on the telly, so she just sent me a text saying yeah (inaudible)”.
4078 “Next one it’s erm +44 7946 then lots of 6’s in the next bit, so it’s 79461 66665 and that was somebody that you erm received a text from on the second of May”?
Reply “Lots of 6’s”.
4078 “Do you know a Maxine”?
Reply “Oh again, that’s a friend, that’s just a friend from Exeter erm yeah can’t remember what her second name is but yeah it’s just a friend that I (inaudible) next to, give you her address, she lives near the motorway”.
4078 “I don’t want the addresses actually”.
Reply “That’s really helpful isn’t it”?
4078 “(Inaudible) near the motorway in Exeter yes”.
Reply “But yeah I can show you the, yeah that’s”.
Reply “She’s just a”.
4078 “And there are, there are just three more, this is mobile +, +44 7958 704510”?
4078 “It’s just somebody that you texted at eight twenty one in the morning on the second of May and they texted you back at five past ten the same day in the morning”.
Reply “Sorry, the last three numbers again I (inaudible)”.
Reply “510, there’s two people that I think, sorry that one’s 513 (inaudible)”.
4078 “Have a look under your J section”.
Reply “J mmm, my sister’s called Julie, she’s in here, I think she text me erm, who else called J”.
4078 “Do you know a John, John CLAXMAN”?
Reply “Ah yes, that’s erm, the reason that’s Christine is his wife and he, so I can show you her number, I haven’t actually got his number in, haven’t actually got his number in here but I’ve got Christine, I’ve actually called her PAXMAN because I thought her name was PAXMAN”.
4078 “That’s on there yes, yes”.
Reply “Oh does that say, oh right okay yeah sorry”.
4078 “Ends in 510 yes”?
Reply “Yeah it does yeah, you know it’s cos it’s under Christine”.
4078 “Do you remember why you were in touch with him that day”?
Reply “Erm well I think it would be Christine, I think she’s obviously, erm she’s just a friend from Exeter again, what day was that”?
4078 “That was on the second”?
Reply “Erm, can only think that she would have text me to say do you want to come somewhere with us, she’s got kids the same age as me, do you want to come somewhere with the kids and I would have text back saying no, sorry we’re on holiday, I can’t think, I can’t
4078 “Yes I know”.
Reply “No, that’s the only thing I can think”.
4078 “Right, and this one it’s a 01324 number, it’s 01234 7723125”?
Reply “1234, 01234, trying to think what”.
4078 “Is it Bedford”?
Reply “If it’s Bedford, that’s probably erm Fi or somebody borrowing my phone to ring her dad, erm don’t think I know anybody in Bedford who I did”.
4078 “Would make sense”.
Reply “It could be Diane or, it’s probably Diane borrowing my phone to ring, ring that”.
4078 “Okay and the last number then, is 07949 731844”?
Reply “Yeah this is the one I think it would be, this is erm, this is Charlotte, my friend in Exeter who was actually out in Portugal with us when we were there, but I think I rang her, she went home on the Saturday and she hadn’t taken her mobile out with her, cos I’d (inaudible) texted her, that day we were supposed to go, it was her husband’s birthday, I must have, I’ve still got the text on here that she, we were supposed to go to their apartment for a barbecue at lunch time, so I text her in the morning and said, (inaudible) text (inaudible), there you go, I text her in the morning and said that, so you see what time that is and but she didn’t answer so, cos she hadn’t got her mobile phone”.
Reply “With her, so I rang her when she was home, that’s (inaudible) I want to talk to her then”.
4078 “But we’ve got that record that you texted her, I think you actually texted her the evening before as well”.
Reply “That was to say do we need to erm bring, I think she was saying, come up for the afternoon, I think it was something along the lines of, do we need to bring food or something along those lines cos we were going for, for lunch”.
Reply “Cos it was Jim’s birthday”.
4078 “Okay. That’s the end of the telephone questions”.
Reply “(Inaudible), that first one”.
4078 “Er yes, the first one that was a Portuguese number 917453319”.
Reply “And what date was that on”?
4078 “On the, twenty five to eleven at night on the fourth”?
Reply “I can only think that was, cos I think Russell and everybody were still at the Police Station then, so I can only think they rang and rang them back or something, I can’t, I haven’t got any idea of that one so”.
4078 “Okay, I’ll check later on whether they want me to sort of”.
4078 “To be more thorough with that or not”.
4078 “But. We’ve Gerry and Kate’s questions still to do, but before we move on to those, I’m just going to go through then your (inaudible) your statement”.
4078 “From the Officers statements, the Portuguese. Specifically the description”.
4078 “And also a comment that Matthew, he said Matthew made, all will become clear”.
Reply “Right okay”.
4078 “See there’s a statement on the fourth of May, there’s one on the tenth of May, this is the fourth of May statement, which is the one that has a description in, bear with me just one, one last part. This part about Matthew”.
4078 “I need to check the other statement you made as well, there’s a mention when we were speaking earlier that Matthew had made a comment about, oh sorry, I’ve found it, I’ve found it now. It depends on which way you read this as to what it means, now I need to clarify with you way it was intended”?
4078 “I’ll read the two paragraphs that are relevant, ‘After about fifteen to twenty minutes, her husband Russell O’BRIEN and Matthew OLDFIELD left to see the children, because all three (inaudible) was agitated and crying Russell O’BRIEN stayed in the bedroom, however Matthew OLDFIELD went to check on his children and Gerald McCANN and Kate (inaudible). According to what you said, he saw the twins but he could not see Madeleine Beth McCANN. ‘As he did not hear any noise, he assumed that all was well and went back to the Restaurant’. Now do you remember if Matthew made a comment when he came back to the Tapas Bar about being only able to see the twins”?
Reply “No, this was afterwards, this was after we discussed it that night, so yeah, no it wasn’t then, he hadn’t made it then, it was after she’d gone missing”.
4078 “Right, so this statement reflects the comments that have been made the following day, where you’ve understood what Matthew’s involvement was”?
Reply “Er either the following day or that night after”.
Reply “You’d, once, once we know so probably when we all got back to the apartment after we’d been, he’d been, they’d all been searching, it was probably then that (inaudible)”.
4078 “Right, so it’s not (inaudible) reason that Matthew’s come back to the table and said only, I’ve seen the twins but I couldn’t see Madeleine”?
Reply “No, no, no”.
4078 “Okay. Clear that one up again yes and then we’ll move on to your description right. This is from page eight to nine of your original, you know your first statement that you did”.
4078 “The, the man that you saw was an olive skinned brunette male and looking between thirty five to forty years old, slim build, about 1.7 metres tall, he had very dark, thick short hair, which went down to the back of his neck, as seen from behind, he was wearing beige/golden coloured linen type trousers with a duffel coat but not too thick. The shoes were black in colour and classic in style, he was walking in a rush, he was carrying a child lying on both of his arms in front of his chest, by the way he was dressed, I thought he was a tourist because he was too wrapped up”.
4078 “How does that seem to you now”?
Reply “Yeah seems, only I’m not sure I said duffel coat, don’t think I would have said, I think the duffel, I think I’d said it was gathered, it may be a duffel coat but sort of the blousy-ness, it was all gathered round his bottom for the want of a better, but yeah I think, yeah the shoes I mean I think a lot was made of the shoes but that was almost like a, that was an add on at the end, that was to, I think this might be what the shoes were like, it wasn’t a definite, the shoes were like this, this is when I was pushed to add more and more information to it, it was more, that’s what the shoes were like, so I didn’t study the shoes and I think that I took that more from the point it wasn’t tra, it didn’t seem to be trainer type shoes, that’s, but erm, but yeah the rest is fairly, the golden was the mustard, because I was trying to point out colours in the room to him cos I couldn’t, in the translation we couldn’t get over what sort of colour”.
4078 “It’s a difficult colour anyway isn’t it”?
4078 “So many different words for the, people say different”.
Reply “Yeah sort of, that’s that sort of the, that sort of yellowy tinge to it, rather than gold, I wouldn’t say it was, it wasn’t so gold, it’s too strong a word for it”.
4078 “And then just to clarify the description that you gave of the child, in relation to the child who appeared to be asleep, she could only see the legs, she looked bigger than a baby, her feet were bare and she was wearing a light coloured, possibly a white or light pink in colour cotton type pyjamas, she’s unsure but seems to remember how you seen some design on the pyjamas, which could have been flowers but you’re not sure”?
Reply “Mmm, you see I said earlier, I didn’t think the turn up bit had gone into this description but I do remember very clearly, the Translator, during my second interview, when I said in the second interview about the turn ups, she sort of said yes I can remember you, can remember you saying that cos erm”.
4078 “So it was said, it just might not have been in it”?
Reply “It was definitely, it was definitely said and I said and the Translator, I can remember sort of, she said, oh yes I can remember you doing these sort of hand movements so, I can’t prove that but”.
4078 “She didn’t say you did the lobster thing then”?
Reply “Afraid not”.
Reply “So yeah it did worry me that that wasn’t in the”.
4078 “Right, and at this point, remember this is on the fourth of May at eleven thirty hours, I’m not hundred per cent certain that that’s in the morning or at night time from what you’ve said now, I assume it was in the morning yes”?
Reply “Morning yeah, the second one could have been in the night time”.
4078 “Yes. So as in relation to these details, she is unaware you were unaware what Madeleine Beth McCANN was wearing at the moment she disappeared because she’s not spoken to anyone about this subject. Now in relation to the male she had seen, she’d only spoken with Gerald McCANN but not in detail and with the Police”?
Reply “Well I’d spoken with other people within the group but hadn’t spoken to Kate about it earlier and Gerry I’d only spoken to cos he was there when I was giving the”.
4078 “Yes. I think the point they’re trying to make is that you had no knowledge of what Madeleine was supposed to have been wearing when you gave that description”?
Reply “No I think, no because when, I wasn’t there at the table when Kate gave a you know, I think Kate gave everybody else, when she came, you know when everyone was looking for her, they had a description of what to look for but I wasn’t, I was in the room at that point so no I definitely didn’t know what she’d, and I’d never seen her in pyjamas, I’ve never seen Madeleine in pyjamas at home and or anywhere so”.
4078 “I’m just double checking the second statement to see if there’s any further description”.
Reply “I think again by then I did actually know what they were, I’d seen a picture of them in the papers, so it’s”.
4078 “Can’t find the specific part in there but I think, obviously it’s covered in the first one anyway, so it’s not particularly relevant to any (inaudible) time, going back to the second one there. Before we move on to then Gerry and Kate’s questions that they want to ask, is there anything else that you want to say in relation to everything we’ve discussed so far”?
Reply “Erm I think the only part which, I mean it’s more relevant to everybody else than to me, it’s probably some of the Robert MURAT bits, in terms of erm Rachel, Fi and Russ and into, erm it was sort of how that came about and how they came to give their statements on that, I don’t know whether it’s a good time to talk about that”?
4078 “Yes, yes go on”.
Reply “Erm well I think it’s when I’d done the, well I did the surveillance and then the next day after that, I think it came on Sky News about whether they were searching, what the MURAT’s house, so that’s Rachel sort of came running down at that point and sort of said, have you seen this blah, blah and at this point, nobody knew that I’d done the surveillance cos the Portuguese Police were very adamant that I shouldn’t tell anybody and I didn’t tell anybody for days actually, I didn’t even tell them then that it was actually, that I’d done it, I mean it was a couple of days afterwards. So Rachel came down and sort of said, oh I saw him blah, blah, blah and then I think Russell, I can’t remember who else but then somebody else said oh they, they saw him and etc., so at that point it was, I rang Bob SMALL cos I’d got, I’d got his number from the day before for them and you know, they sort of, you know to say, oh is this, is this relevant and also I wanted to tell him that I’d seen him on the way to the doing the surveillance as well yeah just for that, so I think it’s just to make the point really that I think at that point, they didn’t know that Robert MURAT said he wasn’t there on the night”.
Reply “You know, or said yeah, had said that he wasn’t there on the night, so you know was immediately, I think it was immediately, I’m not trying to push anything onto Robert MURAT’s door, cos as I say I don’t think it was him that I saw”.
Reply “But I just thought it was”.
4078 “Because there had been some dispute as to whether they’ve actually seen him when they’ve said they’ve seen him”.
Reply “Yeah I think, I just want to make it clear that from my own point of view, they gave that information as soon as it came onto Sky and asked and you know they were sort of like, oh let’s ring Bob SMALL to see if it’s relevant at this point and at that point, none of us knew that he wasn’t there on you know, that he didn’t say that he was there on the night and”.
Reply “And I, I mean I didn’t myself see him on the night at all but somebody did say to me, who translated for you, was it the lady or the man and it, it was the lady, I said, Sylvie and I hadn’t seen a man but again I don’t know whether that has any relevance that there was somebody else there translating, you know during the night so”.
4078 “Okay, that’s certainly a point worth bringing up when we interview the other people that have seen him there on the night”.
Reply “Yeah exactly, I’m not trying to, cos I feel you know, if he’s not involved, the poor chap’s had as much crap as us really, I feel very, you know, he’s not involved but I do think it’s important that”.
4078 “Get to the truth of the matter”?
Reply “Get to the truth of the matter and the truth is you know they, when they asked me to ring Bob SMALL to make these statements, we didn’t even know that he’d erm, hadn’t, hadn’t said he was there on the night and they didn’t know that I’d done the surveillance”.
Reply “Because I took it seriously”.
4078 “So there’s no collaboration between you all”?
4078 “(Inaudible) completely independent other than that”?
Reply “No, I hadn’t even, I mean when I got back, I didn’t even tell Russell what I’d done cos I took very seriously what the Police said in terms of not you know, not telling anybody”.
Reply “So I just thought it was important to say that really”.
Reply “(Inaudible), it’s not trying to build more of a case against him at all, it’s just my involvement in that side”.
4078 “Truth to what happened that night”?
4078 “It’s, is how they’ve said it, it’s not something you concocted up between you”.
Reply “No, it was”.
4078 “And come to a conclusion that that must have been him”?
4078 “That’s genuinely was something at the time”?
Reply “Yeah sort of at the time yeah”.
4078 “Okay. Is there anything else that you need to speak about”?
Reply “Erm no I don’t think so, don’t think anything else is”.
4078 “What about your personal opinions Jane”?
Reply “Yeah erm, well obviously I, I mean I was almost gonna say this at the very, very end of anything but I just, I’d just really like to say to the Portuguese Police you know, I think there’s been a lot said but from a, you know we’re not a bunch of swingers that went out there for a swinging holiday, I can’t think of anything to be worse to be honest but yeah, we didn’t go out there on a swingers holiday to dump our kids in the kids club while we got pissed and shagged each other you know, that’s not what we did, there’s, there’s one week of the year, the other fifty one weeks of the year, with the kids all the time. In terms of our family, Russell’s, you know every spare moment’s with the kids, Russell doesn’t go off playing golf or go to the football or you know, there’s nothing wrong with that at the weekend, it’s spent with the kids and I just think you know, they’ve obviously got this idea of us and it’s just completely, completely wrong in terms of the way we are and what you know, our motives for being on holiday there and I think just you know, they’ve got to, I think you saw my reaction earlier that you know, I’m telling the truth, you know there’s Kate and Gerry are telling the truth, there’s no way they are involved in any shape or form, you know we saw their reaction on the night, we saw their reaction afterwards, we see their reaction now, they’re not involved and the thing is, there’s somebody out there you know, Madeleine if she’s dead or alive whatever you know, maybe it is too late to find her but there’s somebody out there that’s done this and it’s not Kate and Gerry, it’s not us, you know they can do it again and that is the, you know they’re laughing their socks off, they’ve just got away with this scot free and you know, and I think it’s, the thing is, they are there, then it’s not us and that person is out there and you know, could do it again and as I say it might be, we obviously hope not but it could be too late for Madeleine but a lot of other kids out there that might not be too late for and it’s just and to sit and see, and I know, I can quite understand why that time and effort has to be put into looking down that route and but you know, I can’t say any more but it’s not, well it’s not us, it’s not Kate and Gerry and it’s something happened which to Madeleine that night and none of us are involved and you know, I just don’t know what else we can do to make them believe us and I think that’s the you know, and I think that’s the you know, I think that, and I don’t think there is anything else we could do to believe us but you know, we’re not (inaudible), we were normal people that made a really stupid decision because we were lulled into a false sense of security from previous holidays where baby listening was offered so I don’t know”.
4078 “It’s clear that you”.
Reply “And we’ve got to live with that, I’m off again”.
4078 “Yes okay, I clearly know you feel a huge sense of frustration as well that you’ve done everything you can, you’ve said (inaudible)”.
Reply “Well yeah, yeah”.
4078 “And you, I suppose what you’re hoping now, is that the focus of the enquiry’s going to shift away from you as a group”.
4078 “And Gerry and Kate and”.
Reply “Yeah and that just yeah, I mean it’s just you know, it’s inhumane to, and I understand all their secrecy laws and they can’t, but you know all this stuff about us has been leaked from somewhere you know, I mean I’m thinking today I’ve said things and I can just see the, if this stuff is leaked you know, Jane intimidated by Gerry you know, Jane too nice and was worried about being late, so she was saying nice, that she made up the story about Madeleine being (inaudible), I can just see it, you know you can see how people are thinking and it’s just bollocks, absolute I just don’t know, you know it’s not at all like that, we’re just normal people that went on holiday, we’re having a great holiday, made a stupid decision you know and”.
4078 “You made that decision based on how things were at that time”?
Reply “Yeah exact, yeah I know, I know you can rationalise that in your head as much as you can but you know, but and now to make that worse, you know it’s always like and I can see that that should have almost been done straight away, that we were scrutinised and, and the fact that I’m not being believed but have they looked into my past, have they asked family, have they asked people I work with, have they asked friends if this is something I do all the time, am I some sort of fruit cake that makes stuff up and you know, they’ve only got to do that and they’ll find out that I’m not you know, I’m not the least likely person to, might not be Madeleine, I cannot say that it was Madeleine but you know, I saw somebody and I’ve no evidence to say it wasn’t so”.
4078 “But you have a sinking feeling inside that it was”?
Reply “Yeah and I, yeah and I just think you know, they just and you know at the end of the day, this person is still out there, somebody did this and it wasn’t Kate and Gerry and it wasn’t any of us you know, and it just, that is the worse thing, that person is out there, could do it again, he’s absolutely you know, they must be laughing their socks off, well not, you know they, so I think that’s you know, that’s all we can, and I think it’s just that frustration and as I say, I mean I can’t make them believe us and they might still not believe us but you know, like I say, so I’m just begging really that they believe us, I think it’s a”.
4078 “So, that’s fine, are you okay for me to go on to Kate and Gerry’s questions”?
Reply “Yeah of course yeah”.
4078 “And I said that after that we’ll finish this and I’ll just go and see”.
4078 “Might be a short space of time where we’re discussing what’s been said and clarifying and checking the time lines, see if there’s anything else we need to clarify before you go”.
Reply “Yeah that’s fine yeah, that’s fine”.
4078 “To let you go, you are free to go any point obviously. Right, I’m just going to read these, some of them will have been covered”.
4078 “I’ll try and miss out the ones that obviously have been covered. We’ve covered how long you’ve known Kate and Gerry and what kind of relationship there is between you, we’ve already covered that. Have you ever visited Kate and Gerry at their home address”?
Reply “Yes a couple of times, we went to Madeleine’s birthday the year before, so it would be her third birth, yeah her third birthday and I think we’ve probably been there maybe one other time”.
4078 “And I’m assuming then from what you’ve just said that their children were present when you were there”?
4078 “And how many times have you been, say about twice”?
Reply “Yeah it could be more but yeah I think only, only one or twice, two or three times but yeah”.
4078 “And just clarify, you’ve not been on holiday with them before”?
4078 “So you can’t comment on how they, what child care arrangements they had previously”?
4078 “And how often would you meet Gerald and Kate during the holiday time period, where you’ve mentioned that, because you saw Kate every morning at tennis”?
4078 “And then you’d often see both of them during the evening, socially”?
Reply “Yeah from about five o’clock onwards yeah”.
4078 “And the children as well, we’ve touched on that, you didn’t see Madeleine very often, just in the evenings, perhaps at the play area”?
Reply “Yeah, or maybe when I’d dropped Ella off at the erm, kids club, I tend to drop Evie cos that was near the tennis, so no it probably was, yeah it was probably was end of the evening”.
4078 “And was that the same as Sean and Amelie as well”?
Reply “I saw them more because they were in the same bit as Evie and I tended to drop Evie off so yeah but, but yeah not, not a lot”.
4078 “Have you ever felt that you had a reason to become somehow concerned about the children”?
4078 “And the last time you saw Madeleine was on the afternoon you (inaudible)”?
Reply “Yeah we were playing tennis yeah”.
4078 “And you last saw Kate and Gerry with, it says when did you see Kate and Gerald on Thursday May the third, we’ve covered that haven’t we”?
4078 “(Inaudible), Tapas we’ve covered, Kate and Gerry were already there we’ve covered and they were talking to another couple and you spoke to them, what was their behaviour like”?
Reply “Just completely normal, they were laughing and joking”.
4078 “And then we’ve covered who left the table during the meal and why, we’ve covered the fact that Gerry went, how long he was absent for. What did Gerald say when he came back”?
Reply “Erm well I wasn’t actually there when he came back”.
4078 “No you weren’t that’s right”.
Reply “Cos he got back before, so he was back there when I got back”.
4078 “So when you got back then, after having seen him and Jez, was Gerald behaving or acting differently”?
Reply “No not that I noticed no”.
4078 “Did you see Matthew leaving the table during the meal, yes you did”?
4078 “For how long has he gone for”?
Reply “It’s probably ten minutes all in probably, matter of five or ten minutes yeah”.
4078 “And you covered what he said when he got back, it was basically to tell you that Russell had stayed with Evie”?
Reply “Mmm yeah”.
4078 “Was he behaving or acting differently when he returned”?
4078 “Did you see Russell leaving the table during the meal”?
4078 “How long has he gone for, he stayed gone didn’t he”?
Reply “Yeah, ‘til I got back to him yeah”.
4078 “And he obviously wasn’t behaving differently, or acting differently”?
4078 “These obviously are general questions to ask all of them”?
Reply “Yeah, yeah, no, no”.
4078 “Did you see Kate leaving the table during the meal”?
Reply “No cos I was back in the room at that point”.
4078 “And when did you next see Kate after that”?
Reply “When she was running along the front of our apartment, sort of looking under stairwell with Fi”.
4078 “And how did she look”?
Reply “Very, very agitated”.
4078 “What was her behaviour like”?
Reply “Well she was obviously very worried and shouting Madeleine, Madeleine and she, she was frantically searching for the best way to put it”.
4078 “Then the next question lastly, you went to the McCANN’s apartment which you’ve already covered”.
4078 “And you didn’t go into the bedroom where the children were asleep”.
4078 “So you can’t describe that and so you wouldn’t have noticed anything unusual about them because you didn’t see them”?
4078 “What did you do next, where you stayed looking after your children, did you take part in subsequent searches for, no not that night”.
4078 “Did you take part in any of the searches”?
Reply “No, I was going to a few days afterwards but erm, Russell went and said one of us had to stay for the kids, so Russell, Russell went off with them”.
4078 “I don’t know if you can answer this, on realising that Madeleine had not been found in the first ten minutes, how did Kate react”?
Reply “Erm well I could hear her screaming from my apartment, so that’s all I could hear, sort of shouts and screams”.
4078 “And the same question in relation to Gerald”?
Reply “Erm well again I could just hear the commotion, I don’t know where it was coming from (inaudible)”.
4078 “But you said when you saw Gerry at sort of three o’clock in the morning he was just”?
Reply “Ah he was just like standing there shaking, so yeah”.
4078 “What did you think about their behaviour considering that Madeleine had gone missing”?
Reply “It was totally normal because they were just distraught yeah and just, yeah well normal for what you’d expect if they’d just found their daughter wasn’t there”.
4078 “And the following question we’ve covered really, it’s what did you do between ten thirty pm in the evening and ten am of the following day, well you were up ‘til about four thirty and you had a bit of sleep”?
Reply “Yeah it’s four thirty, probably a bit later, five, four thirty five am and (inaudible)”.
4078 “And who did you see, well it’s limited to, within range of your apartment wasn’t it, because that’s where you were”?
Reply “Yeah (inaudible) but Matt, I think Matt and Rachael actually came and stayed in our, I think they actually came and stayed in our apartment that night as well, so they were in there with Grace, so yeah I saw them all that night so”.
4078 “And the Police you saw as well”?
Reply “Oh that night, I saw the GNR Police and the PJ Police and Sylvie”.
Reply “Yeah, then that’s”.
4078 “The next question was who did you talk to, is that all the people you’ve just mentioned”?
Reply “Plus the three nannies, they came to the door as well, as in spoke to them”.
4078 “And Fiona you spoke to didn’t you”?
Reply “Yeah and I’m sure I saw Dave at some point as well, yeah I think I saw everybody, kept sort of coming backwards and forwards a bit”.
4078 “Yes. When did you leave Portugal, well we’ve covered that you said on the seventeenth”?
4078 “How many times did you meet Kate and Gerry”?
Reply “After that is that (inaudible)”?
4078 “I think so, let’s assume it means afterwards”?
Reply “Erm I didn’t actually see them until they got back in the UK, I’m trying to think, the first time was, we obviously had conversation, phone conversations and texts but I don’t think I saw them until, I think it might have been beginning of November before we actually, no it must have been before then, I know I saw them when I did the, I saw Gerry when I did the sketch, you know when the sketch came out, I saw Gerry then but I didn’t see Kate, I think the first time I saw Kate was when I went up to do the (inaudible), so that was November time, actually to see them face to face”.
4078 “Yes. I can tell you feel guilty about everything that’s gone on”.
4078 “How did that affect how you felt when you saw them, were you worried about seeing them”?
4078 “Or had you just had, you know I presume you’ve had contact with them anyway”?
Reply “I’d had plenty of, we’d spoke to them, yeah I mean obviously however much you can rationalise this in your head, you know you look at, not forget but you look at what the pain they’re going through and you think well the same for everybody really and you think you know, you could potentially have stopped this, so it’s very, it is yeah, it’s always, whenever we do see them, it’s always quite hard”.
4078 “Now do you think they were showing normal behaviour for parents who have lost a child”?
Reply “Yeah I do because I think and knowing their personalities, especially Gerry, I mean Gerry had to throw himself completely into you know, he used the campaign and everything else as his coping mechanism to get him through on a day to day basis and some people might think that’s not normal but knowing Gerry and you know he is a very, he’s a very decisive, very, he always has, you know he makes a decision and then that’s the right you know, the way to go, so no I think they were, and Kate’s obviously just a mess, so I think it’s completely, knowing them, I think it’s completely how I would expect them to, to react”.
4078 “Okay. During the time you were on holiday, did you notice situation where Kate and Gerry were talking to any unknown person”?
Reply “Erm no, the only people, Gerry’s very, I mean Gerry’s the sort of person that gets somewhere and he knows everybody straight away, so he’s very sociable, so I think he’d probably know a lot more people than the rest of the group through the, through his tennis as well, so there were people that I saw him talking to that I probably hadn’t spoken to, but they’re all other guests or they might have been guests say, nobody, no nobody that I thought, oh who’s that, they were all people you’d expect to him to be talking to”.
4078 “People whose faces look familiar to you”?
Reply “Yeah, yeah he might have known them yeah, they were familiar faces”.
4078 “Did you see Kate or Gerry inside any car during the holiday period”?
Reply “No, apart from when they got dropped off the first day by (inaudible)”.
4078 “Okay and what about there subsequently, by the Police or whatever”?
Reply “Erm well I’ve came back in a car with Gerry from the Police Station after the second interviews, I saw him in the car erm but no I didn’t see him in any, we didn’t have access to any other cars during our, the time, those two weeks that we were there afterwards”.
4078 “Is there any supplementary explanation that you consider pertinent or relevant to establish the material truth”?
Reply “No not really only what I’ve said so far really”.
4078 “Okay. I think that’s all the questions that I’ve been asked to put to you, (inaudible), I’m going to go and reconvene with everyone else that’s been monitoring”.
Reply “Right okay”.
4078 “See if there is anything that we’ve missed between us, or if there’s anything they’ve thought of that we haven’t thought of”.
Reply “Mmm mmm”.
4078 “I take it there’s nothing else you want to say at the moment”?
Reply “Mmm no I don’t think so, no I can’t think, can’t think of anything”.
4078 “Okay, in that case time is now seventeen twenty five and we’ll finish this interview”.