Duarte Levy..

Freelance journalist

Matthew Oldfield interview at Leicestershire Police Headquarters I

Read also DC Ferguson interviews Matthew Oldfield… with “Technical problems”

4078    “We are recording okay.  So the time is now eighteen minutes past ten and it is the ninth of April in the year two thousand and eight.  We are in an interview room here at Leicestershire Police Headquarters.  I am DC Sophie FERGUSON, I work in the Major Crime Unit here in Leicestershire.  Could you just give us your full name please?”
Reply    “Matthew David OLDFIELD”.
4078    “Thank you.  And your date of birth Matthew?”
Reply    “Fourth of January nineteen sixty-nine”.
4078    “And your home address?”
Reply    “Twenty Sutherland Gardens, East Sheen, London, S, W, fourteen, eight, D,B”.
4078    “Thank you.  And just to put things in context.  You are married to Rachael MAMPILLY?”
Reply    “That’s right”.
4078    “And you have a daughter called Grace who is now two, is she?”
Reply    “Two and a half, she’ll be three in September”.
4078    “And you went on holiday with, erm, in company with the McCANN family last year?”
Reply    “Correct”.
4078    “Which is obviously why you are here.  This interview is at the request of the Portuguese Police and they will be monitoring this interview partly, you know, sometimes they will be, sometimes they won’t be. You have been given a letter from us outlining the objectives for this interview, but please ask at any time if there is anything you want clarifying”.

Reply    “No, it was clear, I understand”.
4078    “And also if I mumble and you can’t understand what I am saying, just remind me, because I do forget and I run away with myself sometimes”.
Reply    “I think you speak more clearly than I do, but, yeah, that’s fine”.
4078    “Nevertheless, just say, you know, if you want to slow down or whatever”.
Reply    “Okay”.
4078    “Your time and co-operation is obviously appreciated, but I would just ask you to be patient with me as, no doubt, we will be covering things that you have been over time and time again”.
Reply    “Sure”.
4078    “With the Police and, you know, by yourselves”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “I am going to ask you to concentrate as much as you can and try to recall what you heard, saw and did around the third of May two thousand and seven.  Let me know if you need to take a  break.  And I intend to ask fairly open questions and then, as I said earlier, things that haven’t been covered in that process, we will go back and ask more closed questions”.
Reply    “Okay”.
4078    “So I can tick the boxes that we need to tick today”.
Reply    “Right.  Okay”.
4078    “Did that make sense?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Before we go on to the holiday, can you just give me some background in relation to how you know the McCANNs in the first place?”
Reply    “Yeah, erm, primarily the connection is through, erm, Russell and Jane, erm, Russell was Rachael and mine Best Man and we’ve been good friends since we went to University together in Leicester and originally he went out with a girl in my year called Ann SMITH and then when I was looking for accommodation Ann mentioned that he had a space in his house, so there was two girls, Russell, Paul and myself and we made up the house and we sort of shared the rental at a house there and we’ve sort of been friends ever since and then, as I say, he was Best Man for Rachael and I when we got married in nineteen ninety-nine, erm, and we stayed in contact pretty much since. We’ve been on hol, well we’ll probably come onto holiday and stuff later.  But through Russell I know David, who was also at Leicester Medical School, and Fiona WEBSTER, who is also, erm, Fiona PAYNE as she is now, erm, it was also at Leicester Medical School and they were two years behind me, so they graduated in ninety-four and I graduated in ninety-two, they know Gerry and Kate or they knew them on a much sort of more friendly level than, than I did.  Erm, so I knew Gerry because we worked together in, I think, two thousand and two, erm, when we were at the Leicester General Hospital, so we knew each other on the, erm, on call rota, so we’d be together at sort of medical meetings, erm, but we didn’t sort of socialise more than sort of a quick chat at that point in time.  And then we really got to know them when David and Fiona got married in two thousand and three, when we went, when they got, they were married in Italy and we, erm, there was a big group of people that went out, erm, all the group that were out in Portugal were there as well, and we shared an apartment with Gerry and Kate and Madeleine, she was about sort of four months old then, four months, it was around about September so she’d be about four or five months old then, and there were other people within the apartment, there was Stuart and Tara and, I think that was it, I think there was six adults and the children, and so we spent sort of a long weekend there for the wedding and so we got to know them a little bit at that point.  But then we didn’t really have any other contact, apart from, erm, hearing about them through David and Fiona and Russell and Jane, erm, from them.  And then the holiday came about because, erm, independently we’d been on sort of various holidays and we’d sort of often talked about them, you know, sort of being friends and we then went on a joint holiday to Greece the year before with David and Fiona, Russell and Jane, erm, but not with the McCANNs, we’d been to Greece, erm, and sort of spent a week on the beach there and then sort of thought about booking a holiday the next year and then Dave and Fiona, I think they’d already been on holiday with Gerry and Kate on another occasion, they wanted to involve them in the group and we ended up going for a MARK WARNER complex in Portugal.  Erm, that was, erm, we’d been to, as I say, some of us had been to MARK WARNER, erm, various MARK WARNER resorts before, we’d been to the Greek one in Lemnos, erm, originally before Grace was born, it was just a last minute deal and it was great, it was all inclusive, we all like sport, erm, and sunshine and, erm, it was sort of all inclusive and it was just a very, erm, sort of relaxing sort of place to go, so we went out there and we were quite keen to do that again because everybody in the group is pretty sporty, erm, and if you have a lot of people together you can share sort of the child care arrangements and it’s also very relaxing for everybody.  Because when we went to Greece it was like the fastest holiday I’d ever been on because there was only about an hour when they were asleep at lunch each day and a couple of hours in the evening where you were actually sort off child care duties, so the week went by in about sort of six hours, it was all sort of, it was very quick.  And so we, we went, we talked about whether we’d go back to MARK WARNER, I think, and David and Fiona had looked at various resorts and, erm, chose the Portugal one because it fitted better with time.  Erm, in terms of, I mean, originally we were booked, we got the, we actually (inaudible) got the week off that they, that sort of fitted, but we were originally going to go to the Lake District with Rachael’s parents but we ended up going, saying that, yes, we’d move that and change that for another week and go out.  Erm, and various emails, everybody got sort of tied down to doing it and we booked and then went out”.
4078    “In relation to Gerry and Kate then, just to clarify what you have said.  You met them at David and Fiona’s wedding?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “In two thousand and three in Italy.  And you stayed, you shared an apartment with them then.  Have you met them socially between then and now very often?”
Reply    “No, no, we, erm, I know that some of the other groups would, but I think mainly because we were no longer Leicester based, because we left Leicester in two thousand and, end of two thousand and three beginning of two thousand and four, because I got a job down in Kingston because I came to the end of my training, and so we moved out, erm, from there.  But in between the times that we were still at Leicester, two thousand and three would have been the wedding, so the end of two thousand and three, because I started at Kingston in February two thousand and four and we didn’t sort of socialise, I don’t think we met them at all after the wedding, before, erm, before we left to go down to London.  But I know Russ and Jane and Dave and Fiona would have been to sort of the birthday parties, erm, but more because they were Leicester based really.  And we weren’t, hadn’t become sort of that close from that small visit in Italy”.
4078    “So the first time you had seen them or had anything to do with them really again was this holiday last May?”
Reply    “Yeah, I mean, we knew about them because Fiona, Dave and Fiona were sort of close friends with them and I think Fiona and Kate trained at some point (inaudible) training or knew each other in that way, so we’d hear about them, but it was, erm, Gerry and Kate and then Dave and Fi at this end and then Russ and Jane sort of sort of thing, it was like that”.
4078    “Okay.  And the holiday that you had booked starting the twenty-eighth of April?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Saturday I think that was”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Do you remember where you flew from?”
Reply    “Erm, we flew from Gatwick.  We certainly flew from, Russell and Jane came down with us, erm, and the rest of the group went from, erm, from Leicester, from East Midlands, erm, simply because they didn’t want to come down or get up very early, because MARK WARNER flights are always particularly early, so they’d need to come down and stay overnight and then drive down sort of very early in the morning, so Russell and Jane came to us and then we went down to, erm, to Gatwick from, from, erm, from our house.  And there was a bit of a problem with the, with the transport, because we’d booked a taxi and we’d said ‘Look, we’ve got three children, four adults and loads of baggage for a week, it’s got to be big enough’ and he turned up in sort of like a standard and said ‘It’s all fine’, we needed two child seats and a booster seat, and he turned up in sort of like a standard size taxi and then tried to get us into two and we’re going, ‘Oh no, we can’t do that’, so we booked into a sort of a valet parking thing, we’d used before at Gatwick, we drove down there and parked in that, it was all a bit of a sort of a rush at the end but got through”.
4078    “Last minute stress, which you don’t need with little children, I am sure”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “I know from speaking to Jane yesterday that you and Jane and Russell arrived slightly earlier than the rest of the group, with flight times?”
Reply    “We arrived earlier, yeah”.
4078    “So if you can tell me what you remember from when you arrived at the resort?”
Reply    “Erm, I mean, we’d sort of came in by (inaudible) and we arrived, we got on the bus, we were allocated rooms on the bus, that’s a question that’s been asked before, so we had the, you know, the choice about where we were going to stay, we’d had the keys with our names on it, erm, we pulled outside the entrance to the Tapas Bar in the bus and MARK WARNER staff sort of met us and took the luggage and helped us get it up to the room, erm, we must have arrived around lunchtime because there was an issue about where are we going to eat, are we going to get food, and I think on that first day we popped down to the Supermarket, there was a Supermarket just down the street, as you may be aware, to just sort of get snacks and things, because I think the Tapas Bar doesn’t open, wasn’t open on that transfer day, so we’d have probably sort of sorted food out and I think we were then unpacking in the rooms when, erm, the rest of the guys arrived and they came in by taxi so they actually pulled into the car park at the back, I remember going out to sort of meet them and say hello to them”.
4078    “Okay.  Bear in mind, obviously I have seen maps and plans, but my mind just doesn’t retain that kind of information particularly well, it is a failing on my part, that  I am going to ask you if you can describe things in detail”.
Reply    “Sure”.
4078    “So that I can picture it in my mind as we are going through, because then it makes it easier for me to understand the logistics of what you are saying as well”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Just grab my water.  Feel free to help yourself to drinks and things if you need to.  I say drinks, there is only water available, just tell me if you want something else”.
Reply    “Yeah, that’s fine”.
4078    “Right.  So you have arrived at the resort, you have been allocated an apartment?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “And presumably you have gone and settled into your apartment?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Can you describe to me where your apartment was?”
Reply    “Yeah, erm, so there’s the, the apartment block, erm, are at one side to the, erm, let’s think how best to describe it, it’s all based around a T-junction essentially.  So, erm, the apartment blocks, erm, runs along parallel to this bit and you go down the T-junction which goes down a hill about, oh, the distance now in memory must be, erm, sort of thirty yards, thirty or forty yards, and there’s an entrance through a sort of a walled enclosure into the Tapas and sort of pool area and within that there’s sort of like sun loungers, there’s a big sort of kidney shaped pool and a smaller children’s pool at the far end of the, erm, far end of the complex and you’ve got the Tapas Restaurant which runs closer to the, on the far side of the pool from the apartment block and behind that there is a crèche, where we dropped Grace off to, coming back out of there you come, pool behind you, you come out the door, left, up the hill to the T-junction and you turn left just to get round the, the walls that sort of enclosed the, erm, well it’s just little walls, which would enclose the back of the apartment block where we accessed the apartments from and you’d walk across a small car park, erm, into, to access the apartments there”.
4078    “Right”.
Reply    “Erm, you go under the sort of, the way that the stairwell goes and the way that the balconies go, you actually walk, I think you walk  under, there’s sort of like a roof made by the above apartments and things to get to our doorway and so there were, sorry, stop me if I”.
4078    “Sorry, no, just before I forget to ask.  The car park that you mentioned?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Does that divide the apartments and the road, is the car park between?”
Reply    “Yeah, so you’ve got a road and then you’ve got a car park, erm, and then the apartment block and there’s sort of two blocks of apartments, we were all in one, but if you walked to the far end of the car park there’d be a sort of little wall and I think there was a little access, you can either swing your legs over a wall to get into it but then there was another car park for another apartment block.  Erm, so you came through the car park, the apartment block’s in front of us and then there were four apartments, ours was five ‘B’, which was pretty much straight ahead of you just angling off to the left, there was an empty apartment five ‘C’ and then there was five ‘D’ where Russell and Jane were, so we were practically, sort of doors opening, not quite see each other but just about and then to get to Gerry and Kate’s apartment, who were five ‘A’, you turn left along a sort of a small wall that separate, that went parallel to the side of the building, but only went to there, to their entrance and then it was sort of dead ended and you go round the corner there to get into their apartment”.
4078    “Okay.  So if you were walking let’s say from the Tapas Bar towards your apartment?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “You wouldn’t pass by, directly pass outside Gerry and Kate’s apartment?”
Reply    “No, because of this, you’d have the wall coming out, which would make it the bedrooms, yeah, which made it the bedroom wall, so you walk past that, you wouldn’t actually go through that.  There are other ways to get into the apartments, the patio doors, which  I will talk about in a second, because dividing, erm, you’ve got the apartment block, so you’ve got the road, you’ve got the, erm, the car park going that way and you’ve got the apartments where we were and it’s a multi-storey, because I haven’t mentioned Dave and Fi who were five ‘H’, I think five ‘H’”.
4078    “Yeah, I think that sounds about right”.
Reply    “And you’d go up the stairs to them, they were the only people on the next floor up, and that’s because they had, no, but that’s just where their apartment was, they weren’t next to us, I think it was to give them a two bedroom place, enough bedrooms for the children, they had a bigger apartment as well, I think to get Di in there as well.  Erm, so you’ve got the apart, you’ve got the road, you’ve got the car park, you’ve got the apartments and then if walk through the apartments you’ve got patio doors that overlook the Tapas Restaurant and the pool area, but they are separated from that by a small sort of garden, which is just about the width of this room and then there’s a sort of a small metal gate that you go out onto a sort of a passageway which runs between the walls that make up your back garden and the wall circling the Tapas and the swimming pool complex, so you could walk through those gates, turn left to get back onto the road and go down the hill to turn back into the Tapas”.
4078    “I have got a couple of plans and some photographs and with you talking about it I think I have pretty much got it in context.  And the bit that I found difficult yesterday was I assumed that you would walk straight past the bedroom window where Madeleine had been staying?”
Reply    “No”.
4078    “Until Jane clarified for me that there was the car park in between”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “So actually the only reason to be there would be because you were specifically going into that apartment?”
Reply    “Yeah, that’s right”
4078    “This plan there was obviously is Gerry and Kate’s apartment, five ‘A’?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “And partially your apartment there, look?”
Reply    “And so you’ve got the road that goes down the hill with the Tapas down here, you’ve got the car park here and you’ve got the top road, erm, (inaudible), erm, a road up there”.
4078    “And what we did yesterday was we called the doors this side the ‘roadside doors’ and the other side the ‘poolside doors’”.
Reply    “Okay”.
4078    “Because I think there has been some confusion in the past about front and back doors”.
Reply    “Yes, yeah, it depends which way you call the front and the back, yeah, that makes, erm, that makes sense, yeah”.
4078    “Okay”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Right.  So where were we.  You have arrived and you have settled in your apartment, you think you may have gone to the Supermarket.  And do you remember what happened when the rest of the group arrived?”
Reply    “Erm, I think, I mean, they would have had to settle into their, and not particularly clearly at this stage, but, I mean, the, that evening, in terms of what was going to happen and where we were going to get food, slightly different, in that, they did an arrival meet and greet at the Millennium Restaurant, which was, erm, slightly distant from the apartment complex, rather than the Tapas, the Tapas was closed for that night and there was also an opportunity to meet sort of the child care people and all of the sort of sports and activities people.  So I think, I think at about sort of, erm, I’m not absolutely certain about this, but I think at about four o’clock we also went poolside, four or five o’clock, and that’s where you met the Nannies who’d be looking after, you know, the children the next day, so I think we, you know, you met that time and then it was packing up and going over to, erm, the Millennium Restaurant and having tea and then coming back and putting everybody down”.
4078    “Right”.
Reply    “So we all ate that evening at the Millennium with, erm, with the kids, except, erm, expect I was feeling unwell so I didn’t each much but I was still at the Restaurant that night”.
4078    “Right.  And what were your interests, what did you intend to sort of be doing that week?”
Reply    “Erm, sailing, for me, because, erm, it’s, it’s a thing I really enjoy but don’t have any opportunity to at home.  Erm, I mean, they’re big on, erm, water sports, MARK WARNER, I mean, they do lots of other things as well, football on the beach and all those sort of things, but really, for me it’s, it was an opportunity to sort of get sailing, erm, and tennis, which was the original reason we chose MARK WARNER when we went, because we’d just sort of taken up tennis and wanted to sort of, you know, to be able to play, erm, and so those were the two things that we anticipated doing most of.  I mean, the other guys wanted to learn how to wind surf and wanted to learn how to sail because they had only done very little of it or not at all, but wind surfing I’d done plenty of it and don’t really find it that, I thought I’d really like it because it’s sort of lots of equipment, it’s technical and it’s sports as well, but it just doesn’t work quite for me, but sailing, sailing does and I’d have gone sailing”.
4078    “So did you have to sign up during the welcome meeting to what you wanted to do?”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah, except the guys signed up for, for sort of introductory lessons in sailing and wind surfing, so I think that took at least two, erm, two mornings of their week and there as no point me doing that introductory bit because you just take the boats out, so I just sort of intended to go down and sail at the same time they were having lessons, erm, and then there was, there was tennis as well”.
4078    “Did you play tennis every day?”
Reply    “No, erm, no, I think, I think we tried to play tennis, because they two things, they do sort of organised lessons and we signed up for some lessons which got delayed for weather reasons later in the week, I can’t remember if we signed up for those straight away, because we didn’t do a group, we didn’t do a group lesson which we’d done, when did we do a group lesson, I don’t think we did, I think we just did, Rachael and I, erm, with, erm, with an instructor, because I think we felt we’d play sort of socially with everybody else and then we’d have, do some sort of private lessons rather than signing up all week.  I’m not sure about that.  I don’t remember playing any organised games with anybody else, I think we just had sort of three, sort of two or three, erm, proper tennis lessons”.
4078    “Do you remember when they were?”
Reply    “Erm, I know there was one on the last Thursday, because it got moved over from Wednesday, because Wednesday it rained and Thursday was a pretty decent day for weather, erm, so it would probably have been, if I’m thinking it’s three, it would probably have been Monday, Tuesday and Thursday, but I can’t remember”.
4078    “Okay”.
Reply    “I know we played social tennis with the men in the evening, erm, on that Thursday and we actually, because there weren’t that many people around, erm, and we actually asked them whether they could move the tennis forward so they could go to the social tennis, because it was actually later and it would have gone across bath time so at least half of us wouldn’t have been able to, erm, wouldn’t have been able to go, so they actually moved it forward and I think they moved it to six o’clock from either seven or six thirty, I think we’d asked for it to actually be moved to five thirty but it wasn’t obviously fair on everybody else, in terms of guests, so they didn’t move it completely forward, but they certainly moved it forward by at least half an hour”.
4078    “And that as on the Thursday?”
Reply    “They moved it for ever night, erm, but, erm, the Thursday I remember because it was the men’s social and we didn’t think we were going to be able to, to get there because we were already a bit late down the beach, but we’d had sort of a bit of free time, we’d already had our sort of time off child care, if you like, and we didn’t know whether the girls were going to give us a pass to do it, but they did late, so we ended up going to it, but sort of quite late for it, we were pretty late by the time”.
4078    “Okay.  And I am going to ask, and you may not be able to do this, but I am going to ask if we can go through Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and I appreciate that they are all going to be probably a bit of a blur”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “If there is nothing specific that reminds you of which day was which then that is, you know, we can’t help that, but I will go through that process anyway and then it might trigger something, if it doesn’t, it doesn’t”.
Reply    “Yeah, I mean, I think I’ll struggle with that”.
4078    “Yeah”.
Reply    “But I think the, I mean, I can remember bits of the Wednesday because we did things that were slightly different because it rained.  I can remember much more about Thursday because obviously we talked about it much more”.
4078    “You said that on Saturday you were feeling a little bit unwell?”
Reply    “Saturday I felt unwell, didn’t eat much in the evening, which for a free buffet is pretty unusual for me, and then I started throwing up in the evening and I ascribed it to, when we were on the plane on the way out, they were giving out the meals and, you know, all the kids had been changing seats, so there was, I was sat with, erm, Ella, which is, erm, Russell and Jane’s eldest daughter and maybe Evie on one side and maybe grace as well, but one of the meals that came round the plastic had already come off and it was in front of Ella and I said ‘You have mine just in case there’s something wrong with it’ and so I blamed that I felt sick that perhaps I was right, it had sort of gone off or something.  It may not have been, it may just have been a bug or something, but I usually don’t get diarrhoea and vomiting, I mean, I can’t remember the last time I’ve been sick.  Erm, but I started feeling a little bit queasy in the evening and then the, erm, the Saturday evening into the Sunday morning I was actually throwing up, which is just incredibly rare for me.  So I felt completely icky all the day Sunday, so I think to try and avoid infecting anybody else, I didn’t do much outside the apartment and certainly in the evening I didn’t go for, erm, didn’t go for dinner with everybody else”.
4078    “That is Sunday out the way with then”.
Reply    “So Sunday was pretty much a write-off and I was thinking, oh, the start of my holiday and I’m not doing anything that day”.
4078    “Yeah.  So Monday was really your first proper holiday day?”
Reply    “So Monday would have been the first proper holiday day.  Erm, in the mornings we, Grace, Rachael and I always had breakfast at the Millennium, apart from the day I was feeling, erm, feeling funny.  And I think we were the, I think we saw Jane most days.  Gerry and Kate came the first, I think came the first day, or maybe the evening, but then started making their breakfast all the time, because they had three kids to get there and the Millennium was a good ten minute walk along roads with sort of, where you had to actually cross into the road to get round because of obstructions on the pavement and there was quite a lot of sort of fast, although it wasn’t sort of like a busy road, but the traffic that did come occasionally came through quite fast, so it was quite a long, erm, a long walk to get there, so they decided that it wasn’t worth the hassle and they would just eat and have breakfast in their apartment, so they certainly didn’t eat there after that first day, if they made it the first day, I think the group did eat the first day.  Erm, what I did on Monday, I don’t know, I would have tried to get out on the water at some point and I’m sure we’d have played tennis”.
4078    “Was there anybody that you particular spent more time with than the others, sort of there was a lot of you in the group?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Did you tend to spend more time with any particular couple or person?”
Reply    “Erm, I probably spent more time with Russell because, oh and probably Dave, because we knew them better and also, erm, Gerry and Kate were much more organised about, erm about their sort of day and what they did and they had signed up for tennis lessons, or did they do tennis group, so they were sort of fairly committed.  But we would sort of end up sort of, so, you know, obviously on a Monday we’d have breakfast and then, this is like for every day, we’d then go and drop off at Nursery and so we’d drop Grace off and she didn’t really like it and so it was a little bit traumatic, she was actually fine when she was there, which is a typical thing.  So you’d go and you’d drop her and then you’d be on to do what you’d do next and at some point we did play tennis, erm, we may well have done that on the first day because it was kind of the easiest thing to do.  I don’t remember who we played or even if we did that.  And the morning would finish around twelve, twelve thirty, we’d then pick Grace, we’d go and, erm, there wasn’t really much in the, in the Tapas Restaurant for kids so much, we tended to bring, come back to the apartment and actually sort of do some pasta and or beans or whatever she fancied eating and we’d sort of feed there.  And initially I think we did that in our own apartment and we were sort of like chatting over the walls to Gerry and Kate on one side and when the top tier looked over they could see us as well.  So we’d do that, she’d go down to sleep about half past twelve, erm, and then that was a relax time, so we’d either sunbathe or read on the outside.  And on every lunchtime that I could get away with it, either myself and Dave or one or two of us would go and go down to the waterfront and take a canoe out or a kayak out and sort of bob about in the water.  Erm, in the afternoons we didn’t take Grace back to Nursery, erm, so we’d keep her with us, she’d sleep sort of, she’d sleep half twelve to sort of one o’clock and if we were upstairs eating with Dave and Fiona, as we did much more towards the end of the week, erm, then she’d maybe sleep ‘til half past three and so we’d be up and either playing by the pool or, erm, we might go down to the, we went down to the beach but that was on the Thursday.  Erm, yeah, erm, Gerry and Kate put their kids back into the crèche each afternoon.  Erm, David and Fi were a bit more sort of varied about it.  And I think Russell and Jane also kept Evie and Ella out, so we’d often pop round to their apartment”.
4078    “So the afternoons were more kind of play it by ear?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Around the children and depending on whether they slept or (inaudible) and how much you could get away with?”
Reply    “How much you can get away with, it didn’t kind of work, it was, it’s fairly even.  So Rachael and Jane or somebody would go, certainly on the Thursday, because the Thursday is easier to remember for obviously reasons, but Rachael and Jane played tennis that lunchtime and then came back and Russell and I went off to the beach, erm”.
4078    “(inaudible) to take care of Grace (inaudible)”.
Reply    “Yeah, there was always that sort of, oh she’s gone down to sleep, you know.  But, erm, it was quite a nice opportunity to sort of sunbathe and read books and”.
4078    “What was the weather like during the week?”
Reply    “Erm, it was sunny but cold, the pools were freezing, so we didn’t, even though the pool was there, it was unusual for people to be in it.  Erm, sunny most days, it got cloudy and it rained on the Wednesday and the Wednesday evening was pretty sort of, in the evenings it was very cold, so at the Tapas Restaurant, when we were there, we’d often, you know, you’d need a jumper if you sat outside and there was no heat particularly, erm, and I think Thursday was sort of fairly similar and quite, well certainly at night and I think the rest had been sort of maybe a little bit overcast at times but I’m not really bothered about the sunbathing and if there was a wind you could go sailing and that was”.
4078    “Yeah.  So it was a win win situation for you?”
Reply    “No, it didn’t really matter to me.  Although if it wasn’t sunny then Rachael wouldn’t be sunbathing and she’d be off playing tennis and so I’d be”.
4078    “Okay.  Do you remember the Monday evening, it probably would have been your first trip to the Tapas Bar, I would imagine?”
Reply    “Erm, I remember it only in terms of it then became the same as it was every, every evening.  So after the first night they ate they said, you know, it was all, you know, it was nice.  Erm, because the options for eating in the evening, because Rachael actually booked the restaurant for the rest of the week after the first time on the Sunday night when they ate and it was all very successful.  And because, the whole point of going to MARK WARNER, apart from, you know, the sort of the sport and things, is this issue of child care, which of course has changed for us completely now, but when you go to (inaudible) or you go to the other ones, they tend to be sort of a compound, I mean, they’re not sealed from people from the outside, but they’re sort of self-enclosed, erm, there’s a warden sort of at the gate house, but you can walk in and out pretty freely, and they do a baby listening service, erm, so they have a number of the Nannies who are on rota who will sit at the bottom of the, Lemnos was sort of like lots of little cottages, not cottages, little sort of flats, apartments going up on two hillsides, and so they would walk round, erm, you know, round and went past all the, erm, apartments and have a listen at the door to see whether anybody was crying or upset and at the start of the evening, as you went past, you’d give them your room number and where you were going to be and then if they heard anybody crying you’d then be taken back up the, erm, you know, they’d find you in the restaurant and you’d go up to the door and see what was going on.  And that was the sort of thing that we were looking for when we booked the MARK WARNER because, it kind of seems funny when you look at it from this perspective, but at the time, it was just about having a safe environment where, you know, the kids, because all the time and all through this, the thing you ever worry about is, if I leave them alone and they’re, you think that they’re safe because they’re all locked, you’re not really thinking that anything horrible would happen, you think, what happens if they wake up and they’re crying and you’re not there and, you know, they’re going to be upset and you think, well, you know, if they’ve got this then it’s going to be ten minutes at the most, erm, and it’s going to be awful and you’ll feel bad about it if it happens, but Grace is a really good sleeper and, you know, we’ve got that sort of safety net, so we were looking for that for Praia da Luz.  And it was one of the things that made us think, maybe we shouldn’t go, because when we were trying to book, you know, it said it’s a village, it’s not enclosed, it’s sort of apartments throughout the village and, erm, there isn’t a baby listening service and we can’t guarantee that you’ll be together, you know, because I think there were three centres, there’s one up by the Millennium, there’s one Ocean Club and then there was the one near the main entrance, and so we were concerned that if one member of the group, we were all going, oh perhaps we’ll be the Billy no mates, the really unpopular ones will get stuck at the Millennium and, you know, we won’t be able to, we won’t be able to go out and visit our friends because we’re not going to leave, you know, we’re not going to leave to, erm, to go and see them and we won’t be able to share child care and so it would be fairly difficult and it was a big issue because they couldn’t guarantee, the couldn’t allocate the rooms, erm, for us and they said it’ll have to wait until you get in the resort, erm, but in the end it was sort of quite quiet and so they sort of could stick us really close together.  I can’t remember why I started talking about that?”
4078    “It is because we talked about your first night at the Tapas Bar and then you came on to say the routine would have been the same as every night”.
Reply    “Right”.
4078    “So you were just going to cover the arrangements that had been put in place for checking on the children?”
Reply    “Right. And so the Tapas seemed to fit because, because you didn’t feel far away from the room, it felt so quiet and very safe and it was sort of a minutes walk, if that, you know, the actual distance seemed quite, you know, you were sort of falsely reassured, but obviously at this point you could see the back of your apartment, not hugely clearly, but you can sort of see the apartment block, erm, you know, you could see if the light came on, for instance, or you felt that you’d be able to see if the light came on and, you know, because we were sort of going what we thought was every sort of ten or fifteen minutes, basically between courses, then you could go.  And rather than go and find another restaurant where not everybody would be able to go because somebody would need to be babysitting, it seemed most sensible just to, to stay put in the same place, erm, because the food was pretty reasonable and just trekking everywhere else was going to make it such a headache for the child care.  And then this issue of, well you do just put the kids in with babysitters, because they were in a sort of a Nanny sort of a night drop-off service, but that kind of felt less safe, in that, one, they wouldn’t sleep or Grace wouldn’t, we’d be worried that she wouldn’t particularly sleep and she’d be worried and it’d be difficult to drop her off because she really didn’t like being dropped off at the Nursery, erm, which I always tried to avoid that chore, I did it on the Thursday, but she didn’t like it and she wouldn’t go to sleep particular well with sort of strangers  in a room when people would be coming in and out to collect their children”.
4078    “It would be unsettling for her”.
Reply    “So it actually seemed a worse choice than just being close but not actually in the room (inaudible)”.
4078    “Was there an actual discussion between the group of you as to the sort of fifteen minute checks or ten minute checks or whatever or was it something that you as a couple had decided on and then the circumstances during the week meant that everyone had sort of taken it in turns to check?”
Reply    “No, we pretty much checked our, well certainly we checked our own and it was only the last night that we offered to check for Gerry and Kate.  It just, we are sort of fairly similar, our sort of views on sort of child care and that it was important, we’re sort of from the same background, we have sort of similar issues about sort of child rearing, which is why we sort of get on and there was nothing obvious that anybody would do anything particularly different.  I mean, Russell and Jane sort of, erm, are sort of fairly relaxed and easy going, erm, and Dave and Fi are sort of a bit disorganised and a bit late and Gerry and Kate are much more organised and we sort of fit sort of between that end of between, between that end of the scale and Russell and Jane.  So it was all sort of, it was just sort of natural, we didn’t decide, oh we’ll do this, it just sort of came at natural breaks, we’d come down and we’d go between sort of courses to sort of check, but we usually, we’d check our own and, as far as I know, that didn’t really change.  Although, because it wouldn’t seem, certainly for Russell and Jane I’d be happy to check for their children because they know me and if, you know, they had been awake and I went in they wouldn’t be particularly, erm, you know, they wouldn’t be particularly shocked or surprised or not know who I was, but Gerry and Kate and their children I didn’t know them so well, so I wouldn’t and certainly at the beginning of the week have offered to check their children or assumed that that would be okay, it was only at the end of the week when we seemed to know each other better and our routines and everybody seemed to be doing the same thing that it seemed to be a nice thing to do to offer to save them a trip”.
4078    “Yeah”.
Reply    “But, no, the, there was no sort of formal arrangement, as far as I know, for, for when we would go and check on the kids, we just went at sort of convenient times as we could”.
4078    “Okay.  So I know you can’t specifically remember the Monday evening, but that began with the sort of weekly routine (inaudible)?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Was there, had there been, also before the Thursday, had there been any problems with that routine?”
Reply    “No, erm, anything out of the usual or out of the ordinary?”
4078    “Yeah, was there anything that sort of made you more anxious about Grace’s welfare?”
Reply    “No”.
4078    “Had she woken up on any of those occasions?”
Reply    “No, not that we know.  I mean, she may have, I mean, she’s a good sleeper and we put her down about half seven, so we had about an hour to make sure that she settled well, but she was so tired from going to Nursery and being out and playing with all of the others that, erm, you know, she slept like a top.  Erm, there was nothing unusual, we never sort of came in and had, had a sort of a worry about her not being happy or being well”.
4078    “So the overall effect of that, I am assuming, would be that you were really quite relaxed on that holiday, you were doing things that you enjoyed doing?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Grace was occupied and happy?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “And in the evening you had felt very sure that she was sufficiently tired for you to go and have your meal and you and Rachael would take it in turns to check on her?”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah”.
4078    “Okay”.
Reply    “I mean, we’d be, we’d be back by, there was only one time that we ever went out for a drink after the meal, so normally the meal would finish around sort of ten and we’d tootle off back.  And I was ill on one night, Rachael was ill on the Wednesday night and so the Wednesday night was the only time that I stayed out any later than that.  So it was, and we’d already (inaudible), so it was sort of like an hour and a  half of time that we were away, maybe two hours”.
4078    “Was there anything different about the Tuesday that you can recall?”
Reply    “Erm, no, I don’t remember anything specific about, about that day.  I mean, Rachael became ill on the Tuesday night.  Grace had, the thing that would have made it really horrible, when I became unwell, was for everybody then to go down with D and V, and we were sort of very worried that it would go first to Grace and then to the kids and then back up to everybody and completely ruin the entire trip for everybody, and Grace had loose nappies nearly every day, but until after Madeleine went, erm, disappeared, she was never sick and on a couple of occasions then she was sick, but she had sort of fairly loose nappies.  Rachael became I think unwell over the Tuesday night and was, erm, mostly sort of pottering about the apartment on the Wednesday.  But, apart from that, I don’t remember anything else about the Tuesday”.
4078    “Okay.  So, by the Wednesday then, Rachael was pretty much confined to the apartment, if you like?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “And do you remember what you did that day?”
Reply    “Erm, I remember I went running with Kate at lunchtime, she’s quite a good runner, and we went out on the road all the way up to the main junc, erm, the sort of main road where you access Praia da Luz from and then back”.
4078    “What sort of distance would that be?”
Reply    “Erm, yeah, I think it’d be about three or four miles, maybe each way”.
4078    “And you run, do you often run?”
Reply    “Erm, no, I don’t like it, but I quite like it on holiday when it’s a bit warmer and it’s not so bad on your joints and I quite like running on the beach, because it feels quite sort of Bay Watch and it’s kind of Californian”.
4078    “In your own mind, yeah”.
Reply    “Yeah, yeah, yeah, and then I woke up.  But, erm, yeah, but, erm, no, she’s quite a good runner and I quite enjoy it every now and again, but, if it’s sort of unusual and you’re sort of exploring a bit”.
4078    “And how did”.
Reply    “I can’t remember how that came about”.
4078    “That is what I was going to ask”.
Reply    “Yeah, erm, it may have been that, because I think Kate might have run most days, because she was quite a keen runner, and it may just be that either I thought I’d go for a run and she was already changed, or I was changed and, or Gerry might have said that, erm, I’m speculating, it may just have been coincidence that we both got into running gear and then decided to run together”.
4078    “But you went on this route and are saying you found it quite hard to keep up?”
Reply    “Yeah, well, yeah, she’s quite a good runner”.
4078    “Right.  Do you remember what you had one before that, in the morning?”
Reply    “No, I have a feeling that on the Tuesday was one of the sessions that the guys had, either a wind surf or a sailing lesson down the beach, so I think I’d have gone down there to sail.  Wind conditions were kind of funny, the, the, because it was kind of, kind of a thermal sort of cycle, so in the morning it’s actually quite quiet and good for beginners because the wind’s not really started to blow and the land heats up and the wind comes in as things move in, so it was the afternoons that were really strong enough for what I wanted to do, so I think I must have been a bit disappointed.  But I think the Tuesday and Thursday were days that they had lessons and I went, I’m fairly sure that I went down to the beach whilst they went and took out one of the other boats.  The Wednesday, one of the days I went out with Russell and we just bobbed about on the kayaks because, and I think that was either a Monday or a Tuesday.  When did I go back into the water, have I missed one.  One of the days we were bobbing about on the water just sort of chatting at lunchtime”.
4078    “How busy was it around the beach?”
Reply    “Fairly quiet, yeah”.
4078    “And on all the occasions where you went sailing on your own or with Russell or running even with Kate, was there anybody, with hindsight now, that sort of springs to mind that you noticed hanging around that you wouldn’t have expected to have been there or that you didn’t recognise from the holiday?”
Reply    “Yeah, I’ve thought about this a lot and, no, there was nobody that, erm, there was nobody that seemed to be odd or taken an unusual interest”.
4078    “And I have no doubt you have thought about it time and time again, like you said at the beginning, and in all those times you haven’t sort of come to any theories about the staff at the complex or?”
Reply    “No, I mean, there was nobody that gave you a particularly bad feeling.  Erm, I mean, there was one incident where somebody, and I think Russell mentioned, might have mentioned it, about somebody that was videoing and doing pictures of kids, and I remember being there at the time and the video and everything and was sort of speaking to them, but I don’t, you know, I didn’t really know them, I didn’t get any particular vibes, they had children, they had a video camera”.
4078    “And nothing else has sprung to mind at all?”
Reply    “I think, erm, no, I mean, we were so fairly, you know, although we’d spoke to other people and chatted, it was mainly, it was sort a self-sufficient group, there was such a number of us, so if we went to play tennis we weren’t necessarily, erm, sort of, erm, taking anybody else on, or sort of, erm, just mixing with the group, because we had enough people to play with on our own”.
4078    “And the beach was fairly quiet?”
Reply    “The beach was fairly quiet”.
4078    “Can you recall the pool and the Tapas?”
Reply    “The pool and the Tapas were fairly quiet”.
4078    “What about in the evenings when you were going back to check on Grace, do you recall some of the other people around?”
Reply    “No, there’d be rarely, rarely anybody about, maybe an occasional one person.  Erm, tut, was he, was it the chap, whose name I can’t remember, he had a child who was willing to be part of, or was being suggested for the interview, Jeremy, Jeremy or somebody?”
4078    “Yeah”.
Reply    “Who had a child and I think I’d seen him around because I think their child didn’t sleep particularly well and he may have been pushing or he might have been collecting from crèche, but what day or what time, I don’t really remember”.
4078    “How did you come to know Jeremy?”
Reply    “It was a couple that we spoke to while we were on, Jeremy I think I spoke to on the coach, either on the coach or we already said something, you know, something when we were checking in, sort of that’d have been four o’clock in the morning or whenever it was, and there was, so I think I spoke to him on the coach or on the plane on the way over, definitely on the coach or on the plane on the way over, and sort of said hi every now and again, but didn’t, erm, you know anything more than that really”.
4078    “And did you speak to him during the holiday?”
Reply    “Yeah, just on odd occasions”.
4078    “Okay.  Right.  So, I mean, having said that you had struggled to remember what you did each day, you have done pretty well really so far, you have remembered, for example, that Rachael was unwell all day on the Wednesday, so therefore you had gone for a run with Kate.  I am guessing, would that have been when Grace was asleep or?”
Reply    “I think that was lunchtime”.
4078    “Yeah.  Do you remember what you did after your run with Kate?”
Reply    “No, because I’d have been on, I’d have been on Grace duty I think that afternoon.  So given that Rachael was unwell and she was sort of in and out of bed (inaudible).  Erm, but a lot of the time we ended up, there was sort of like a play area by the pool with sort of like a plastic, you know, sort of house and little slides, and we spent most evenings, after the kids, because the kids ate a little bit earlier, they ate about sort of quarter to five sometime round there, they’d have their tea, and we’d all move over to this sort of play area, because, I mean, it was fantastic, because there was just like little play houses and things and, you know, sort of lots of grass, so there’d be lots of sort of, they’d sort of chase each other round, they’d play on these bits and, you know, we’d chase them, erm, backwards and forwards, you know, taking it in turns and just sort of stand around and chat.  Some people might play tennis at that point in sort of part of the social games, because they did, they did like a sort of mixed, women’s night, men’s night, social, like that. So there was definitely times when Rachael was on the court, because Grace would be going, like sort of seeing them on the court, she didn’t like it, she’d look like at the netting, going ‘Mummy, mummy’ and ‘Come on, come and play’.  Erm, so that was pretty much the routine for most nights and we may have gone over and played with that, erm, played with that stuff a little bit earlier as well”.
4078    “Was it during those sort of times where you got to know Gerry and Kate a little bit more?”
Reply    “Predominantly those, because that’s when we saw them most, I mean, it’d be sort of a good hour.  And the awful thing was that Madeleine always used to say ‘Oh come on be a monster, be a monster, chase me’ and, you know, and you think, you know, there really are, you know, it was all pretend at that point, but of course, erm, not as it turned out that, you know, the fact that she said that was, erm.  But, you know, it was all, you know, fun, the children running round and then they’d all jump on Dave or jump on Gerry, it was all, you know, they got on great, there was a sort of good range of ages so they had enough people to play with, yeah, it was great, they loved it, running around”.
4078    “And I will ask this question, because I know it comes into play later on, so we may as well cover it while we are going through this”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “As you got to know Gerry and Kate how did you find them?”
Reply    “Yeah, they’re, erm, I mean, they’re very similar sort of people.  I mean, they were absolute, they absolutely loved their kids and there’s no question to any of us that they had anything to do with this.  Erm, they were appropriate, friendly, they had the same, I mean, we’re all medics, so you’ve got that in common anyway.  Erm, but, yeah, I mean, you see them on the cameras on TV and they’re all sort of, they are all sort of very, very sort of focussed, very, you know, sort of (inaudible) but they know what they want and they can explain it, they are articulate.  I mean, he’s a, sort of an academic sort of medic, so, you know, it’s sort of a competitive field where you compete for grants and staff and all that sort of thing, so you need to know what you’re doing, you need to be sort of fairly on the ball and that’s just how he is, I mean, it’s just, if he’s got a project, he’s sort of very focussed and sort of fairly, fairly driven.  Erm, but, absolutely, sort of great parents.  I mean, most of my memory from Italy is of sort of, you know, I think, I think Madeleine may have had quite a bit of attention when she was younger.  She was mostly in and out of sort of the apartment, didn’t see much of her there.  I saw more of Gerry when we were playing sort of football and things.  But, yeah, you know, just a normal.  I mean, he’d done quite a lot of sports, erm, on a Wednesday night particularly and when we went to the bar after we spent a lot of time talking about sort of, you know, could it have been slightly different could I have been a professional footballer, you know, this is how, I enjoyed it and how far I got and we talked about sort of what I’d done and there was quite a lot in common, erm, in common with that.  Erm, Kate sort of initially was much sort of quieter but when you sort of talked to her she’s, erm, sort of just friendly and sort of warm and just a normal person”.
4078    “And how would you describe Madeleine?”
Reply    “Erm, yeah, sweet, lovely, you know, sort of very sort of outgoing and, erm, you know, enthusiastic, bounds of energy, sort of memories of her as they’re running round the bits when we sort of chased her, it was always ‘I want more.  I want more.  Be a monster.  Be a monster’ and running round, yeah”.
4078    “Sad memories for you all, or mixed memories probably, I should imagine, bitter sweet?”
Reply    “Yeah, erm”.
4078    “And you said the Wednesday you stayed later and you went for a drink after the meal at the Tapas?”
Reply    “Yeah, we might have had one, erm, so about sort of half an hour or so later that we went back.  But the reason, now we mention it, but I think that was on the Thursday, when we went to the table, I didn’t sit next to Gerry, because we had this conversation, he said, you know, he’d bored the pants off me yesterday when we were talking about his sports (inaudible)”.
4078    “Right”.
Reply    “I don’t know why I brought that up, I don’t know, it seemed to be sort of part of my thought”.
4078    “On the subject of drinking and how much you had to drink in the evenings, has obviously been mentioned in the past, so I will ask the question”.
Reply    “Yeah, somebody said fourteen bottles, I think, oh, tut”.
4078    “Blimey”.
Reply    “I know and that was each”.
4078    “So how much did you really have to drink, obviously it is going to be different each night, but, you know, roughly?”
Reply    “I think we had, I think we had between four and six bottles at the most on the table open but not emptied, so I think we started with either one of each, sort of a white and a red, or two of each, and then may have had an extra one during the course, but not, not drunk, you know, maybe two or three sort of glasses.  Erm, it is difficult because, you know, it’s holiday and the sort of the bottles are there and I don’t particularly, I have to be in the sort of right sort of mood to drink and, you know, it sort of can be a bit cold and it wasn’t always sort of conducive to having, erm, having lots”.
4078    “To what extent, did you feel like you had been drinking then?”
Reply    “No, not at all”.
4078    “Were there any evenings where you felt, oh I feel like I’ve had a lot?”
Reply    “No”.
4078    “So you always felt relatively sober?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Is there anything that you can think of, worthy of mention, up until the Wednesday night before we move onto the Thursday?”
Reply    “Erm, no, my initial thought is there’s nothing that’s leapt out that I haven’t mentioned before.  Erm, I mean, there was no sort of strange people or anything unusual with the, with the flat.  Some people had, I mean, gardeners came round to trim the gardens once or twice, or maybe just once a week, I mean, because we were there for three weeks, maybe they came round slightly more.  Erm, somebody had workmen in maybe during, the shutter we broke, the shutter, erm, broke for, the outside shutter by the patio door broke for us on the first day, I think it went back  up into its, so you couldn’t actually drop it on the outside, the shutter by the patio, but we didn’t drop that anyway, erm, until we got in at night, but I think it broke and it had to be, and I think they did come, yes, they did come and repair it.  But apart from that there wasn’t really anybody else (inaudible)”.
4078    “We will concentrate more on your apartment actually before we move on to the Thursday”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “How are you doing, you know, do you need a break or anything?”
Reply    “No, I’m fine”.
4078    “So we have got the diagram there of your”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Well mainly all of your apartment and Gerry and Kate’s obviously.  Up until the Wednesday night, from what you have already said then, you didn’t go into Gerry and Kate’s apartment, well, sorry, you didn’t check on Gerry and Kate’s children?”
Reply    “No”.
4078    “Had you been into their apartment before?”
Reply    “Erm, I don’t think so.  It’s hard to remember now at this point because I know what it looks like.  I mean, we certainly knew the back where their patio was.  And it may have been on the first day that we actually looked at everybody’s apartment, because we had the smallest, erm, apartment, because we only needed one bedroom and they needed two, erm, so we may have had a brief walk through or as far as the kitchen.  But I can’t say with any certainty that I’d been in”.
4078    “Okay.  Can I just borrow that back from you because there might be another plan in there”.
Reply    “I mean, that, I can’t remember whether that was asked in any of the original statements, there might be something about that there and that would, I would recall that better”.
4078    “That is just a plan that somebody has drawn up of the area.  It is marked Exhibit DM2 for anybody that is interested watching the DVD.  You have already described the layout of where you were in relation to the Tapas”.
Reply    “Right.  It’s sort of pushed out a little bit.  Yeah, that’s right”.
4078    “So this would be Gerry and Kate’s apartment?”
Reply    “On this corner here, round this kind of, kind of wall, yeah.  So their door entrance would be in that sort of corner there and your access would be up and across the car park so you’d get onto the pavement and come down and then back into the Tapas here and then there’s a wall here and sort of a footpath between the lower wall dividing the apartments and sort of a five foot’ish wall on that side.  Erm, I’m not sure about that building there, that’s where they had the tennis place, but there’s just like a little reception just in the actual doorway itself, yeah”.
4078    “So can you just mark on there for me your route between the Tapas and your apartment?  Did you always take the same route?”
Reply    “No, erm, because during the day, if somebody was in the apartment, erm, we’d go back through the patio doors, we’d just leave them open, you know, if somebody was in, but at night we didn’t, we always locked it and went round the back.  So the day route, when somebody was in, we’re just going to go sort of, erm, do you want me to put them both on, I’m going to have to choose a different colour, and so the night route would be”.
4078    “I’m not prepared for that”.
Reply    “Erm, would be, erm, you can’t sort of get over that wall, if that’s pavement, then that’s down the pavement and you’d go down there to the, to the Tapas and back and forward and that would be the checking route”.
4078    “That is fine”.
Reply    “Erm, the day route, you might, you’d sneak back up here and go through the patio doors”.
4078    “Yeah.  It’s more the night route I was interested in because obviously when we come on to talk about the Thursday evening it is going to be your route and in relation to what everyone else has said”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “I am just going to call this now MO1, just because it is specific to you now that that is the route that you have taken”.
Reply    “Yeah, sure”.
4078    “And we will do an Exhibit label for that as well in due course, no point wasting the time doing it at the moment.  And then logistically then, when you would go to your apartment to check Grace?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “You would come through, as you have described?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “And through the roadside door, if you like, rather than the poolside door, would that be right?”
Reply    “Yeah, so you have got those dotty bits there.  So our door is here, these are the shutters on the back of our thing, so you’d come out through here and you’d come in and you’d go into the room here.  And we had the bed, erm, the bed head was here and came out into the room and Grace’s cot was here”.
4078    “Okay.  So Grace was in the cot rather than the bed?”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah, she was in”.
4078    “Okay.  And this door here, what was the door like?”
Reply    “Erm, brown, erm, big, brown and wood, brown and wood like.  There was a lock, erm, it sort of, you know, one of those you turn twice with the key.  And I think, and sort of I think a round, or was it like a lever handle, I can’t remember what the handle was like, I think you had to turn it to go in and so it would snip, erm, you couldn’t really shut it with the lock on, but I think if you didn’t lock it up here you could then just open it and shut it, I think you had to actually lock it to, it wasn’t like a Yale thing that, erm, stops you opening it again, I think”.
4078    “On the evenings where you and Rachael both went to the Tapas and you checked on Grace?”
Reply    “Umm”.
4078    “What did you do in relation to securing the apartment, did you lock?”
Reply    “Erm, these would all be locked”.
4078    “Yeah”.
Reply    “The shutters, we didn’t open all week, because there’s kind of no point.  I mean, we went in that bedroom for Grace to sleep during that day, it needed to be dark and kept it at an even temperature, there was no point putting it up and down.  I know the, one of the things I said in my statement, when we talk about the Thursday, was where the two windows were only the one, and I thought the two were on this bedroom rather than this one and so, you know, I said, you go through, but there’s actually two more, apparently two on those, they showed me a photograph of that.  So that’s something I know that I got mistaken by, I thought there were two on next door, because I don’t think I’d ever noticed it because I think because we’d never pulled up the shutters, they were always sort of down, we just didn’t interfere with those”.
4078    “Yeah”.
Reply    “And so the patio doors would be shut and locked, erm, the outside, erm, shutter wouldn’t have been down until we were in there”.
4078    “Okay”.
Reply    “Erm, but everything else, there’d had been no windows, the windows would all be shut and secured”.
4078    “So at this end then the shutters would have been down and that would have been locked?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Okay.  And you say Grace was in this first bedroom on the left here?”
Reply    “Yeah, there’s only one bedroom in ours, so we all slept together, so it was us and Grace was there. Erm, there’s just like a bathroom and toilet, the bath goes along there.  Erm, and there’s sort of like a living area with, erm, there was a TV I think on the table there, a side table, a couch and a couch there”.
4078    “Okay.  When obviously you were next to the McCANN’s, in their apartment?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Did you hear between the apartments?”
Reply    “You could hear from the bathrooms, erm, you’d be able to sort of hear, you’d be able to sort of hear talking and, particularly at bath time.  They’d go slightly earlier than Grace just because, erm, I mean, sort of I’m a bit disorganised about getting Grace, you know, to bed, erm, so they’d already be in bed slightly earlier, but you’d often hear them in the bathroom.  And I know that Grace had, erm, some fairly loose nappies that needed putting in the bath to clean off, which she hated, so she used to cry for that first thing in the morning and I think they’d heard her, erm, erm, heard her in the morning.  But you’d often hear them talking in the evening”.
4078    “You see, the reason I am asking that is, I think it was the Sunday night that you stayed in the apartment, wasn’t it?”
Reply    “It was on Sunday night, yeah”.
4078    “Did you hear any of the children during that Sunday evening that you are conscious of?”
Reply    “No, no, I mean, at no time we didn’t hear, I mean, sort of the big picture about whether, you know, they were being sort of, you know, well looked after, I didn’t hear any sort of screaming, shouting or, you know, anything sort of untoward”.
4078    “You have and you had no concerns about?”
Reply    “No, either child care or parenting or them not being happy.  I mean, you know, you do a bit of child psychology when you do and you know what, you know, what kids should do.  If you leave them in a room and you’ve got, and they’re linked, well linked to their parent, they look anxious, then they leave the room and they’re happy when you come back, they’re, you know, it was all appropriate sort of, you know, there was nothing odd about the way they interact with their children, they didn’t do anything that would made me think, you know, that was my”.
4078    “Okay.  Right.  The Tuesday evening would have been the evening that Rachael stayed in the apartment?”
Reply    “Rachael was sort of, erm, became unwell the Tuesday evening, erm, and she stayed in the apartment, yeah”.
4078    “The reason I am specific about that is because there is a statement from somebody who says they hear children crying and I think it is the Tuesday evening, I will stand corrected if I am wrong, it was either the Tuesday or the Wednesday”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “So I must make a point of mentioning it to the other Officer to specifically ask Rachael.  I am sure she will recall and say if there was anything relevant but we must ask”.
Reply    “Yeah, I think, for some reason, she’s, I don’t know whether that’s come up before, maybe just asked her non-specifically did she hear anything, but I didn’t on the Sunday night and, you know, she’d have said if, and she’s never said that she heard anything”.
4078    “Yeah.  Okay.  I will just make a note to myself though just to remind me because, as I say, whilst you are here it is best to ask all the questions”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Okay.  So that takes us really up until the Wednesday night.  And the Thursday is going to be you actually go through that sort of blow by blow as far as we can”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “So it may be a good time for a break if that is okay with you?”
Reply    “That’s fine, erm, either, what you need to do”.
4078    “I think we have been, what time did we start”.
Reply    “About an hour I think we’ve done”.
4078    “Okay.  Well we will just have a short break and I will get you a tea or coffee?”
Reply    “Erm, I’d love coffee”.
4078    “Coffee?”
Reply    “Yeah, please.  But I can make it next door if you like?”
4078    “No, well if you pop next door I will bring it down to you in a minute”.
Reply    “Alright.  Thanks”.
4078    “And then when we come back in to do the next interview we can concentrate on the Thursday without having a break during that process”.
Reply    “Yeah”.
4078    “Because it is nice if it, you know, if it is flowing just to carry on”.
Reply    “Yeah, alright.  Thanks”.
4078    “Alright”.


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