Duarte Levy..

Freelance journalist

Maddie: David Payne interview at Leicestershire Police Headquarters – part III/III

Read part one here and part two here.

Person Interviewed:    David PAYNE
Place of Interview:    Force Headquarters, Enderby
Date of Interview:    11.04.08
Time Commenced:    1530 hours
Time Concluded:    1640 hours
Interviewing Officer(s)    DC 1485 MESSIAH
Other Persons Present    None

1485    “Okay the video’s now recording again. We’re in a third interview with yourself. We’re at Force Headquarters Police in Leicestershire. I am DC Ivor MESSIAH from Leicestershire Police Major Crime Team and the date is Friday the eleventh of April and the time I make by my watch is fifteen thirty exactly. Could you just tell me who you are please?”
Reply    “I’m David PAYNE.”
1485    “Okay. I’m just continuing in relation to you being a witness to, or, in regards to the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine MCCANN, alright, and this is the third interview we’re conducting.”
Reply    “Yes.”
1485    “Hopefully it should be the last. Once again a series of questions, a lot of open questions, take your time in answering and give me as thorough answer as possible.”
Reply    “Okay.”
1485    “Right, I just, before I move on I just need to refer back to the last interview just to clarify a couple of points.”
Reply    “Okay.”
1485    “One of the points is, do you recall you told me that when Kate had come back to the Tapas and said…”

Reply    “Yeah.”
1485    “What had happened.”
Reply    “Yes.”
1485    “You’d said that, you referred to some sort of, her face, you said the look on her face…”
Reply    “Yeah.”
1485    “Was, can you remember what you said?”
Reply    “Err, how did I describe, I mean just you know the, it was just a haunting face of someone who’s you know discovered what she discovered.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “It was just, you know, if you meet Kate now, you know, you can see it, you can just see it in her eyes still. Err, I mean, the only other way to put it, you know, there’s something missing from her life.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “But it was just, you know, the grief and the horror in that face, you know.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “It was just err I’ll just never forget it.”1
1485    “Yeah. But there was a specific, I mean I’ll, I can probably look at the video at a later stage.”
Reply    “Yes.”
1485    “And I just wonder whether you can remember what you said? It was quite impactive what you said.”
Reply    “Err, sorry.”
1485    “No? That’s okay. Can you recall shortly after that she went running off to the apartment block and she was saying they’ve taken her?”
Reply    “Mm.”
1485    “Is that what you said?”
Reply    “Mm, yes.”
1485    “She’s taken, they’ve taken her?”
Reply    “She, you know, obviously there’s what we’ve talked about when, you know, it’s portrayed in the press about what she said, they’ve taken her, and that was definitely not, and that was, you know, or unanimous across everyone we’d all said that was not what she first of all said, you know, she’s gone was you know the first words that she said.”
1485    “She first said that she’s gone?”
Reply    “She’s gone.”
1485    “And then the second time she said?”
Reply    “And then, I mean, and then as we were walking up, err and there’s you know the exchange of conversation was you know, was they’ve taken her.”
1485    “Okay. Moving on a little bit to Gerry and Kate, because they like, because you know they’re into tennis aren’t they?”
Reply    “They are.”
1485    “They seem to be playing tennis every day.”
Reply    “Yes.”
1485    “Virtually. Do you know whether they took their own tennis kit out?”
Reply    “Err no they didn’t.”
1485    “They didn’t take the kit out?”
Reply    “No.”
1485    “But when I said…”
Reply    “Oh sorry when you say the tennis kit…”
1485    “When I say kit.”
Reply    “I’m talking about the, err racquet and balls they didn’t take.”
1485    “Kit in, you know, kit in general is gonna mean the attire and…”
Reply    “Err, did they have any specific tennis gear? You know (inaudible) I don’t, I, I don’t recall that they had anything specific you know to play, you know, we all have what we ha, call tennis gear you know, not the stuff that you probably go swimming in and you know…”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Which was appropriate to wear on a tennis court but they weren’t err you know they weren’t water goers, you know they weren’t interested in the water sports side of things.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “So you know they knew there was the tennis side of it and they’d gone along with the interest of playing, you know, some more tennis.”
1485    “So generally what would they wear to play tennis as far as you can recollect?”
Reply    “Err I’ve got the pictures, err, err yeah again, sorry I can’t remember.”
1485    “Well would it be fair to say it would be t-shirts?”
Reply    “Oh yes, yeah.”
1485    “Colours?”
Reply    “Err I mean again I think Gerry had a white, a white top err I think he had a, you know, like a polo shirt.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Err sleeveless, err I, I keep thinking he’s got white trousers err shorts sorry, but I can’t remember.”
1485    “What about a kit bag? Would they have a kit bag with them?”
Reply    “Err he certainly didn’t have a great big tennis bag or a, you know, err I mean I used to be a squash, a semi-professional squash player and you know they certainly didn’t have anything that I would call a kit bag from days when I played…”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “You know, a lot of sport, err if they had a rucksack with some water in that would be, you know, about as big as it got, you know a small rucksack. But it certainly wasn’t a big tennis, you know, things that you could put a tennis racquet in.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “There was nothing of that size that you could hide a, a tennis racquet in or anything like that, it would have been just purely, if they had anything…”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “It would have been something that had their water in.”
1485    “So as opposed to a bag it’d be something like a rucksack, if at all?”
Reply    “If, if at all, yeah.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
1485    “And is that the same for Kate?”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah.”
1485    “You mentioned early on, on the last interview as well, about a photo. You spoke brief about a photo you’d shown, you’d shown a photo.”
Reply    “Oh yes, I mean…”
1485    “Where did that come from?”
Reply    “Err where did the photo come from? That’s a very good question, err I’m not sure whether it was from Gerry’s digital camera or one of the digital cameras that we had there from my recollection. Err but you know, it was, sorry I can’t, I can’t remember exactly. I seem to remember it was one of the digital cameras but that’s about as far as it…”
1485    “Can you remember the pose in which Madeleine was on the photo?”
Reply    “Err I can’t, no.”
1485    “Did you see the photo?”
Reply    “Err I did, yes. I mean Russell err was probably the most instrumental in that side that we, you know he’s very good with computers and setting that side up, so he specifically went off err you know to do that. Err you know, I mean we kind of identified early like you know I have, I have seen the picture and, but sorry I can’t remember it.”
1485    “Okay.”
Reply    “But Russell was, I say, you know that was where his strengths was and he went down trying to link up the computers and was good at that kind of (inaudible).”
1485    “Where did the com, where did they link the computer up?”
Reply    “Err the err originally I thought it had been done in the reception at the Ocean Club, not the Tapas bar, but then I realised it was actually the Tapas bar, err sorry the other reception as you walk through into the Tapas complex err there’s a room just on the right there err they’d got a computer and a printer there err that’s how they sorted it out.”
1485    “And Russell did that?”
Reply    “Russell did that yes.”
1485    “Was that at Gerry’s request?”
Reply    “My, well it might have been Gerry’s or mine, it was something that we, you know, we, you know you’re trying to think what we should do in the circumstances and we thought right you know a picture, we’ve gotta get a picture out because you know everybody didn’t know who Madeleine was so if people were searching for her they needed a picture to identify her, but we, you know, we were also convinced that you know she’d been taken and there was a high chance that someone had got transport to take her, given the way that we thought you know she’d been carried off and err you know, we, well if, if, the worst scenario if there was, if someone was gonna move Madeleine away from that area, you know we wanted the, to try and get the, err, the area secured. Therefore they would need a picture to see who, to identify her so it was something that we were, those, those two things we were, you know keen at trying to secure that, you know, the picture was available and err the, you know the roads were closed down in the surrounding areas.”
1485    “How many photos were there?”
Reply    “Err again, I don’t, I didn’t see all the photos but I know there was at least ten that were printed off, but whether there was more than that I couldn’t say but I know that there was at least ten available.”
1485    “And they were all of Madeleine?”
Reply    “They were.”
1485    “Were they all the same pictures?”
Reply    “Err again, I would have to say I think so, I didn’t see all the copies.”
1485    “Okay.”
Reply    “But I know that’s what, you know, Russell said, again, I think.”
1485    “Right and do you know where they all went”?
Reply    “I don’t know.”
1485    “Okay. Did you take any photos on the night at the Tapas bar?”
Reply    “No I didn’t.”
1485    “Did anybody take any photos?”
Reply    “Err…”
1485    “Before Kate obviously raised the alarm.”
Reply    “Not that I’m aware of. There wasn’t, normally we’re quite snap happy but err we’ve only got a few pictures from the second of May, then the third of May and then you know a few days until err so there wasn’t a great deal of pictures being taken err you know obviously there was a few here and there, Jane’s quite keen on photography, I know she takes some nice pictures and I’d taken some in the play area on the, the, err the night before and we’ve also got pictures of the, the afternoon from the beach and from the restaurant and then the play area again and there’s some pictures of us playing tennis err with the times on, so you know that’s about the last pictures that I can recall. I’ve got our pictures and I’ve got Dianne’s pictures but I’ve certainly not seen anybody else’s err completely.”
1485    “What about the night before? The Wednesday night, did you take any pictures, were any pictures taken then? Or did you see any pictures being taken then?”
Reply    “In the evening?”
1485    “Yeah, because I understand that you stayed later on the Wednesday night.”
Reply    “We did, yes, err the pictures that I’ve got, there are some pictures on one of the evenings and I can’t say which evening that was.”
1485    “Your camera should…”
Reply    “My cameras will have the…”
1485    “It’ll have…”
Reply    “It’ll have the date on there.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “But I, you know I can’t remember which evening, I thought it was earlier on in the week but err but again it wasn’t, it wasn’t, you know in the evenings wasn’t generally camera time, I don’t think people were that bothered really in the evening and that taking pictures, it wasn’t…”
1485    “Because it would have all pictures of you huddled together and…”
Reply    “Well it would yeah.”
1485    “(Inaudible).”
Reply    “That was it yeah. I mean as I say there’s only like two or three pictures I think we’ve got from the evening.”
1485    “Right. When you had your beach hour on the Thursday, so you came off windsurfing and then you had food at the beach bar, where was Kate and Gerry?”
Reply    “Err I mean they certainly weren’t at the beach bar err you know there was, as I say it was all parties apart, apart from the MCCANN family and I wasn’t aware what they were doing at that, that moment.”
1485    “About, not long after, well before sorry you went, you left…”
Reply    “I mean obviously Gerry was playing tennis…”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Around that time because you know I knew that I was going up to meet with Gerry.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Sorry, but you know, I’ll make that a bit clearer sorry, when we were doing the water sports and that I know at some stage I think we played tennis and that but I couldn’t say you know what, or they’re in, you know the times we’re around there and I knew that Gerry was playing tennis around when we were thinking of going back to, to walk up with him, to play tennis in the evening.”
1485    “So you knew as opposed to seeing them?”
Reply    “Well I, I knew Gerry was you know, around that time sorry that he was going to be playing tennis, but I mean I don’t know, I couldn’t tell you what they were doing earlier on in that afternoon.”
1485    “Yeah. Did you see Kate running along the beach at all?”
Reply    “I didn’t, no.”
1485    “During that day?”
Reply    “No.”
1485    “Around the teatime ish side?”
Reply    “Err, again, again I, sorry to say this again but I, I you know she’d been running quite a bit after Madeleine err had gone, and, and again it just gets a little bit patchy and you know, I know I saw her on the beach running, but whether that was after or before I can’t remember.”
1485    “(Inaudible.)”
Reply    “That’d be something I’d probably, if I looked at my statement if there’s anything in there.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “I would be guided by that. Err I don’t…”
1485    “So you…”
Reply    “I don’t think I did, if I, you know if you wanted me to hedge a bet on that one then I’d say more likely I can’t remember seeing her running on that, that afternoon but I, I’d prefer to have a look at my statement because I’m sure of at the time of my statement I would have mentioned that.”
1485    “Okay. I’d like you to describe Madeleine to me. What sort of a child she is and you know how you see her.”
Reply    “Mm, err Madeleine’s err a very striking err beautiful child, I’d almost if I want a better phrase call her doll-like, you know she was very, you know I think, you know very unique looking child err, she’d got very pretty, you know blonde hair err in a bob, she was quite a petite err child and you know she was very bubbly, very err you know she was a very good child to, to interact with. She was very bright, you could have a lot of fun with Madeleine err and you know she, she was, you know Kate and Gerry’s, you know pride and joy. They’d had a lot of trouble conceiving, you know with IVF and everything and you know Madeleine was their miracle. She was obviously very unique with the fact that she’d got the, you know the iris defect err but you know she was certainly a happy go lucky child you know she was, she would interact with the other children very well, as I said on the other, earlier recording, you know she played very happily with Lily and you know indeed the other children. She was, you know, very, she is a very beautiful child and good fun.”
1485    “Mm.”
Reply    “You know I, you know a fact I’ve come across already you know she was a, she’s a very bright child you know, she wouldn’t be the kind of mischievous child who you know and just try and get out of the flat and you know get up to mischief and that, you know, there’s fun in all children but she certainly wasn’t that kind of child. She was very bright.”
1485    “Moving on then to the time that you, when you say after the alarm was raised you went into the MCCANN’S apartment. Can you describe the layout of the apartment?”
Reply    “If you’re going in through the patio doors you walk directly into the, err the living, you know, lounge space. Then if you’re going, walking through the apartment towards the front door you have the kitchen on the, err right, which was a small kitchen, which was boxed off from the rest of err open plan living space. If you were walking from the patio doors into the apartment and you were walking towards the front door and turn left you would go towards the bedroom areas. Directly in front of you, you had the bathroom err as you were looking at the bathroom the door to the left would be the, the room where Kate and Gerry stayed and the door to the right was err where the children were sleeping. Err you know there was the double bed in the err Kate and Gerry’s room and as you went into err Sean and Amelie’s room there was a bed up against the far wall where there was the, you know, was the window. There was another bed parallel to that but across the other side of the room, err along the wall where the door is where you walked into the apartment. In between the two parallel beds was the, err two cots also parallel with the space err between the two of them, and obviously the twins were sleeping in the err cots and then err Madeleine was on the bed which was nearest the door that you walked in to get in there.”
1485    “Okay. When you went in after the alarm was raised what was the bedroom like at that point?”
Reply    “Err the, you know again I, it, it wasn’t, it wasn’t dark, it wasn’t really, really dark but it you know my overall impression was the room was fairly dark. The, the children as I said before were still err fast asleep, which again you know we’ve discussed this you know over the months that Kate and Gerry you know, as all children wake up you know in the night and err you know with all the pandemonium and the shouting, breaking, that they were still you know, fast asleep, and err you know I wouldn’t describe that I could see anything in the room like there’d been, you know, clothes thrown around the room or anything and disturbed and you know I, I noticed that the bed was empty that Madeleine was sleeping in. Other people have described that the bed was very neat and tidy but that isn’t what, you know, I could confirm.”
1485    “What was the bed like that you can confirm?”
Reply    “I, I, you know, I, my note, visual note was she’s not there, the twins are there, you know I just ran out and you know was wanting to, you know, run around like a headless chicken and try and do something you know to be helpful.”
1485    “How long do you think you were in that bedroom for?”
Reply    “Err as I say when I was there I wasn’t actually, hadn’t walked in to the whole part of the bedroom, if anything I’d just stepped in to the room just from the, err you know the doorway perhaps just beyond the doorway, but I hadn’t you know gone right in to say like where the twins were or in between where the beds were. Err again it’s, it’s difficult, it’s difficult to say because I could have well pop back more than once just, you know, you know with Gerry, you know moving, you know we were moving around so frequently, err I wasn’t certainly there for any length of time, whether it’d be a minute, you know that would be something, or that I’d ever stayed at the maximum because there was just so much else.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “You know going on with people running around etcetera.”
1485    “Throughout the holiday from the twenty eighth till the fifth, or till the third…”
Reply    “Mm.”
1485    “How many times do you think you actually went into the MCCANN’S apartment?”
Reply    “Err probably more than other people as I said there was the, there was one, there was the incident with the cot where were trying to, you know, had some difficulty with one of the cots that had been provided to err you know so and they’d got the spare cot that you know so I had to go down and pick that up and then I, I popped in there you know some other times as well, I say I probably, in total during the week, I’d have said five, half a dozen times I’d been to that apartment.”
1485    “Okay. Just going back to the phone numbers, do you recall I told, or you mentioned the Portuguese number?”
Reply    “Yes.”
1485    “I mentioned to you that they’d sent you, or they sent to your phone a text message on the fourth, which is the following, the next day about twenty past ten, sorry two minutes past ten.”
Reply    “Right.”
1485    “And then eight minutes past ten.”
Reply    “Mm.”
1485    “Did you actually speak to these people?”
Reply    “Err…”
1485    “In Portugal?”
Reply    “The, I mean, the other, there was a, the other person who contacted me which I didn’t mention while I was at the Police Station was one of the Portuguese err newspapers and err you know asking, you know for comments and err so that could have been what the, you know, the number. I spoke, I did speak to the other, the friends of Simon ALDRIDGE’S who you know who kindly bought the phones and they actually bought the phones to the Portimão Police Station and I went downstairs and got the phones and then err brought them back upstairs. Err in terms of you know whether I, we spoke to them on the next day sorry, was that the question?”
1485    “Well you spoke to them on the next day, the next day yeah that Madeleine went missing, on the fourth.”
Reply    “Right.”
1485    “That’s when, well, there’s text messages but what I’m asking you is, did you speak to them?”
Reply    “Err I don’t remember having any text conversation with any err Portuguese newspapers so I presume that Portuguese number, they, sorry yeah the other, the, the other Portuguese person I spoke with was err there was err a Solicitor in err Lisbon who err the conversation it may well have been with Lisa LACARNIE because that was a friend of their family who they, they’ve got a business in the UK but they deal with Portugal and Lisa said if you need any err Portuguese advice then there’s err Paolo, and again I’ve got his number in my other phone which might clarify that bit.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “And err he err and I did speak to him again after that day so it may well have been him just to say oh you know do you want any help, do you want any advice, and err and that you know that’s how it was left at that, that stage so that might have been, piecing it together from what you’re saying.”
1485    “Do you recall me telling you about the London number, which you couldn’t find in your phone?”
Reply    “Yes.”
1485    “That number actually transcribes back to the Crime Specialist Director in London.”
Reply    “Mm.”
1485    “Did you contact them?”
Reply    “Err I did yes. My, err you know my sister err had been in contact with them and she was trying to do everything that she could knowing the, err, the difficulties that we were having out there so you know I did approach them just asking for advice but err I can’t remember, I don’t think I actually spoke to anyone there, but for some reason that wasn’t carried forward.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “But I mean, you know, just into the context of the conversation you know we’re in a strange country, we’ve got no representeers we don’t know what’s going on, all hell’s broken loose and you know to see whether you can do anything to help Madeleine come back, you know and that was the lines that we were taking.”
1485    “Do you remember who you spoke to?”
Reply    “I don’t know.”
1485    “The call was made on the following day at twenty three thirteen, so that’s late at night.”
Reply    “Mm.”
1485    “You don’t recollect anything else about the conversation that you had with that, was it you that made the call?”
Reply    “Err I, yeah I know that I got phone numbers from my sister which I did you know ring them but I can’t remember making one late at night.”
1485    “Okay. Okay just finally we’ll come on to the, Kate and Gerry’s questions and you may have answered these.”
Reply    “Okay yeah.”
1485    “The first question is an obvious question. How long have you known Gerry and Kate? And what kind of a relationship do you have with the couple?”
Reply    “Yeah, err I say Fiona first worked with Kate err at an anaesthetic registrar and I was doing research back in two thousand, err so that’s you know we ended up going out err for the night and then you know we’re very good friends ever since. Err we went away to err Lanzarote err that was gonna be about two thousand and three, they came to our wedding later in two thousand and three. We went to Majorca with them a year later and again had a very good you know holiday with them there. You know we see them, you know re, you know quite frequently, we’ve always got on extremely well. Err the more I know Gerry the more I like the guy, err and it works great you know because Fiona has a really good relationship with Kate, I get on really well with Gerry, you know I get on well with Kate as well. Our kids all get on well together and you know we, you know they, you know they are just such lovely people they’ve got time for absolutely every, anybody and to hear the things that have been said about them again is just, you know it’s completely err heartbreaking really because they are, they’re just, they are the salt of the earth they really are.”
1485    “Have you ever been at Kate and Gerry’s home when their children have been at home? And if so, how many times?”
Reply    “Yes, I mean we, err we know them when they were err living at, obviously when they were at Queniborough first, we’ve known Madeleine ever since, you know she’s err been around and we went over to see them in Amsterdam as well and you watched Madeleine, you know, we were all the staying there together then since the twins have been around we’ve been round as well so we’ve been many, many times you know when they’ve been together, you know the  children have been there err so yeah.”
1485    “Were your children present as well?”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah, you know because obviously between the five children and we’ve known them ever since, before we’ve had children and then when each one’s come along you know we’ve always been, you know each family’s been pleased for the other family if you like and there’s always, you know wanted to be available when you, your children are being born and congratulate and to help and err and so I think you know ever since we’ve known them and since we had children we’ve always been around.”
1485    “And the next question is have you ever been on holiday with them before? Well yes you have.”
Reply    “Mm.”
1485    “How did they take care of the children at night when you went away with them before?”
Reply    “Err when err we were, when we were, well when they came to our wedding first of all Madeleine was very young then so you know they kept her you know with them at all times. When we went to err Majorca together it was a big err building you know for, big enough for four couples and the family and we just stayed at that particular err you know farm house, you know all the time really so if, when the kids went to bed we were downstairs. Err they, when we were there they were downstairs so they weren’t far away from err you know where we were staying that night and err you know their kids slept very well that holiday and err but you know they were, they were very close by and people were passing by you know just to check on the kids upstairs because we were having a bit more of a problem so you know there was a lot of activity not far away from where their children were, they’d all slept very well in that early part of the evening, well I think through the night generally. So we were very close by err we were, we ate generally in, in the place itself which wasn’t many metres away but you know certainly they were very responsible and err you know certainly nothing.”
1485    “The next question is, how often did you meet Kate and Gerry during the holiday between the twenty eighth and the third? I think we’ve already covered that haven’t we.”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah. Less frequently than probably other people but we all met up, and certainly in the evenings and play time.”
1485    “How often did you see Madeleine…”
Reply    “Sorry can I just go back to that?”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “I mean also there was times when we you know did the picking up at the crèche, you know Lily was always at the same crèche as Sean and Amelie so I would generally meet Gerry you know err when we, when the crèche had finished in the morning, when, because that was the only time that err Lily went there so I either, generally saw either Kate or Gerry at that time.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “So that was also another moment that we generally linked up.”
1485    “Well other than, because you played tennis on the third, so other than the third was there any other times that you played tennis with Gerry?”
Reply    “Oh yeah, err there was, you know one, one evening err there was a fastest serve evening and we had a bit of fun all trying to err you know out the machine which measured how quickly you served, so you know, that was the evening that we played, I’m sure there must have been another time that we’d had a knock as well.”
1485    “Have you ever felt you had a reason to become concerned about the children?”
Reply    “During the holiday or generally? This answer’s probably the same anyway to…”
1485    “Generally I would think.”
Reply    “No, err you know Kate and Gerry I think it’s, they’ve had you know the twins, it’s never difficult, err sorry it’s never easy looking after twins, err my sister’s got twins and err you know and it was very difficult for them. Madeleine would often get up in the night and go and sleep in the same bed as err Kate and Gerry so I think their sleep patterns were pretty disturbed and I always marvelled at how well, I mean I’d be so much more tired than they were and, and grouchy but they never were. They were never, I, I’ve never ever seen either of them lose it with, with the kids you know err they, they you know tell them off as any parent does but you know no, not particularly forcefully you know as, you know and they have they’ve always been such an even keel err that you know you just have to admire how they’ve brought their, their family up, and children up.”
1485    “When was the first time that you saw Kate and Gerry on that Thursday?”
Reply    “Thursday? Again, I can’t, you know the only moments I can definitely say is when I saw Gerry before the tennis and then I saw Kate but you know there must have been some other time during the day but I’m not sure.”
1485    “So seeing Kate in the apartment…”
Reply    “Yeah.”
1485    “Was that the first time that you saw her that day?”
Reply    “I, I can’t, I can’t recall seeing her before that but I’m not saying that I didn’t see her.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Err…”
1485    “Well we’ve covered what time you got to the Tapas bar and who was there, we’ve covered what Gerry and Kate were doing when you arrived, did you speak to Kate and Gerry? Well you spoke to Gerry didn’t you? How were they behaving generally?”
Reply    “Err while we were at the Tapas?”
1485    “When you got…”
Reply    “Yeah err you know as I said on the earlier err tape that you know I, I’d had one of the best days and you know I was saying that to Gerry and Gerry was going ah you know you wouldn’t believe what a brilliant day we’ve had and you know it’s one of the best days he’s had there and he was, you know, he, he’s someone who is, you know, you know we were saying, you know what a great week it worked out, you know really well you know how ironic you know that’s turned out to be but you know that was generally the mood that evening. You know we were coming towards the end of the, err holiday you know it was our last but one night and err yeah it was just a really good, a good mood, you know as I say if that’s the only that, that’s the only thing that’s peculiar about it, you know, but everyone was…”
1485    “It’s got here, who left the table and why? Well we’ve discussed that people left the table.”
Reply    “Mm.”
1485    “To go and look after their children, can you think of anybody who went, who left the table that night to other than look after the children?”
Reply    “No, I can’t, I can’t think of any other reason.”
1485    “It’s one of the earlier interviews, somebody had mentioned that primarily it was, other than Jane, it was all the males that did all the running about, would that be about right?”
Reply    “I mean as I say I remember Matt and Russell going, I remember Gerry going and remember the, you know, Jane you know, err I can’t remember whether Rachael left the table or not, but the…”
1485    “Dianne?”
Reply    “Err I don’t think, I don’t think Dianne left the table, I don’t remember seeing her move.”
1485    “Fiona?”
Reply    “No.”
1485    “Did you see Gerald leaving the table during the meal? Well we discussed that about why and what time, for how long, and, but you said when he returned, did he act any differently when he returned?”
Reply    “No, no.”
1485    “And again these are sort of questions relating to the same thing with different individuals.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
1485    “So when, did you see Jane leave the table? And what time? For how long?”
Reply    “Mm, err as I say I can’t remember exactly how long people left, the longest anyone left was, was you know I can remember is Russell and again that was because in terms of you know the food issue.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “And err but you know certainly everyone else I don’t remember them going for a particularly long time, I’d expect them to walk up to the apartment, look at their, err respective children and then walk back.”
1485    “Obviously that relates as well to Matthew, which you’ve covered, Russell which you’ve covered, Kate which you’ve covered, was that the one and only time that Kate left the table when she came back and raised the alarm?”
Reply    “I believe so.”
1485    “According to your…”
Reply    “According to my memory yeah.”
1485    “According your memory. And you described how she looked and you described how she was behaving. Were you shocked about what she’d said?”
Reply    “I mean, the, you know the first, you know there’s a moment of disbelief you know or you know you look for every plausible, you know, explanation in your mind which just goes through very, you know filters through very quickly you know could this have happened, or you know or what, you know but as I say when she said it and the look on her face it was, you know if a picture told a thousand words then you know. Again, you know, Kate is just so reliable you know she wouldn’t come running down and saying, well certainly she’s gone and then you know thinking she’s wandered off and then as it transpired you know, then you know, what she was telling us after in terms about the gate, but the look on her face and her saying she’s gone, it to me implied what had happened without actually hearing anything else, just by the look on her face.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “But you know, again, whether that’s also a little bit of retrospectively, you know, (inaudible) on the situation, but I can just remember the look on her face, she’s gone.”
1485    “Did you enter the MCCANN apartment? Well you did. Did you enter the children’s room? Which you did. You described what you saw, you’ve said that you saw the twins. Did you notice anything strange about it?”
Reply    “Err, as I say, you know about before, the amount of screaming that was going on in the apartment and around and everything that was kicking off and the fact that the two of them could just sleep through it, you know, again, perhaps just take on board saying that you know sometimes you know, they’ve had their difficulties with Kate and Gerry with them sleeping through and you know it was just very bizarre that they continued to sleep through. Err you know I did notice obviously that, the change in the, you know the blind and the err window, but you know I can’t accurately say it like other people did, you know what, how exactly did they find it, I couldn’t say.”
1485    “What do you mean the change in the blinds in the window?”
Reply    “Well you know it was pointed out, the window was open, the blind’s not, you know, err down it’s open, you know so those things you know I was made aware of but err as I say I couldn’t tell you exactly how far down the blind was or how much the window was open.”
1485    “Did Kate say anything about the window and the shutter?”
Reply    “Err I’m sure she did but what she exactly said and you know because we were, you know, the first thing you’re trying to do is work out how it could be opened you know, what was, you know, err and you know the discussion whether it be open from the inside or the outside but what she said I can’t remember. But also on the back of subsequent discussions that we had about what may have happened, it’s difficult to say without, or you know things merge into one.”
1485    “What did you do next? Well you took part in assisting in the apartment then you did some searches with Russell and…”
Reply    “Matt.”
1485    “Matthew was saying, and you was with, who were you with? Russell and Matt obviously. Okay, on realising that Madeleine was not found within the first ten minutes, how did Kate react?”
Reply    “Err she was distraught and you know (sighs).”
1485    “And the same for Gerry?”
Reply    “Yeah, I mean Kate, you know Kate generally, you know more emotional than err Gerry was and then all of a sudden Gerry would breakdown and you know just, you know saying she’s gone, you know she’s gone, err Kate was more like that on a continual basis throughout the evening. Err Gerry would still try and function in between the moments of you know breaking down and err you know and try to, you know, I had the discussion on with phone and you know what, what we gonna do and err and then, you know, they’d breakdown again, so there was…”
1485    “Considering that Madeleine had disappeared, what did you think of their behaviour?”
Reply    “(Sighs) I mean it, you know I, whatever, it, it seemed to be appropriate, I’ve never been in a position to see what people are normally like after, it seemed completely appropriate for what had happened and there wasn’t one moment you know that I thought that’s, you know oh crikey they’ve taken that well or you know, you’d expect them to be more upset than that or you know, (inaudible) expected it if you haven’t lived through that circumstances.”
1485    “I just want you to think about this one here now, what did you do between, I know you said that you did subsequent searches, but up until ten o’ clock the next morning, just tell me what you, just go through your movements.”
Reply    “What, sorry, in the…”
1485    “Yeah so you’ve started to take part in the searches and you’ve taken part with Matt and Russell.”
Reply    “Mm.”
1485    “You’ve done a bit of a loop of the…”
Reply    “Yeah.”
1485    “Down to the Supermarket. Just tell me…”
Reply    “I mean the…”
1485    “You went back, subsequently back to your apartment and then bedtime and then…”
Reply    “Yeah I mean my, my, you know a lot of the movements you know the, initially with the sweep that I did straight away round the complex I was on, you know I did that on my own err you know, going up to the room, that bit I did on my own and where I swept down to the beach and walked along you know and shouted for Madeleine and seeing other people as I went along you know that was purely, I was running and I was doing that on my own. Then when I went back to the apartment, then swept up you know at some stage looking up at the, the area above the apartment to the side, looking in the rough err some rough land which was on the way to the err Millennium err where we ate, err and there was err bumped into Dan, he was looking, you know the tennis pro, looking there you know err I say that was another part of the search. In the meantime there was also, you know, discussion with Mark Warner people and the Police immediately outside the, err, the apartment err you know so there was, I can’t think of anything else to say.”
1485    “So when did you eventually go back to your apartment?”
Reply    “Err…”
1485    “To sleep and…”
Reply    “To go to sleep? We went back to the apartment about four, four thirty err we slept err you know we’d got err Sean and Amelie err over to the apartment, you know we’d got the bedding done for Kate and Gerry and then we went sleep, we woke up about six, six thirty err and then as I say, err, you know Kate and Gerry were err you know were already awake, not that they’d, you know, they’d slept sorry you know they were still awake and err you know they, they’d been out searching already looking to see what’s happening. Again I remember Kate very distraught you know, there was nobody outside the err apartments and you know and it just felt like time was just ticking by and you know nothing, you know appeared to be happening.”
1485    “And then you spoke to Yvonne MARTIN around about nine o’ clock you said.”
Reply    “Mm.”
1485    “What did you do up until nine o’ clock?”
Reply    “Err I remember we were hang, you know I was outside with, you know, with Kate quite a bit err just basically looking, seeing whether anything was happening, err outside, err I say there was, there was the local report and the news journalist who came up as well at some stage, then err then there was a correspondence between you know, with Robert MURAT and the err Police who err arrived and you know trying to find out what was going on. And then, you know, obviously we were gonna be going to the err Portimão Police Station and then you know we were waiting obviously for that to happen and err that’s about it really.”
1485    “Okay when did you leave Portugal?”
Reply    “Err we stayed on for about another four weeks err after, err I can’t remember the exact err date that we left but towards the end of May.”
1485    “And did you see and meet Kate and Gerry?”
Reply    “Yeah, I mean…”
1485    “During that time.”
Reply    “I mean we, we, we tended to find that the best time to meet up with them was err in the evenings, that was you know they were trying to get through a hell of a lot of work, Gerry was you know, you know working away, was trying to err you know get things going and you know corresponding and ringing people and err the err the, the Police, err the liaison team who came out from Leicester you know when they initially came out I, you know I hooked up with Kate and Gerry and was you know part for the early meetings but then err Mike, you know Kate’s cousin, and err Johnny, you know they came out and they were, you know they were, spent a lot of their time around (inaudible) and then Trish and Sandy, so they ended up getting a very good team of people immediately around them who, you know, they certainly wanted their, their help from whether it be a practical err level err or advice, then you know they’d got, so we were just really felt that you know at the end of the day was the most appropriate time to catch up with them. I mean obviously, you know, the, the televised, you know when we went to the err church with err you know Kate and Gerry and err the rest of the group err so you know probably out of the, of the other couples there we, you know we tended to meet up most of the time in the evenings and then we would you know go back to the, err, the rest of the group and just, you know and try and give some information about what had happened to Madeleine you know. That’s what everything was about you know, what’s going on you know, was there any information you know, and, we tended you know to watch a lot of Sky news just to try and get any information that we possibly could about what was going on, err so that was kind of the main contact we had with them. Err probably around less than a week, or around a week after Madeleine had gone, you know we all met up as err a group and I think in our apartment they, you know wanted to just touch base with everybody you know we, we’d all been through that experience and Kate and Gerry wanted to you know, again in the, in the depths of despair that they would just see how everyone else was and just you know err, err, and just you know there was a real camaraderie, you know, mix of people who were there.”
1485    “Did the original group all stay till the same time as you?”
Reply    “No we, we decided that we would stay out longer than err the other, you know Matt and Rachael and Russell and Jane, we didn’t think it was a, certainly it was appropriate that we all left together, it you know, I think no-one wanted to really leave, they wanted to stay there as long as they could and you know, and be a support for err Kate and Gerry but I think obviously you know, I think other events were taking over and really we, you know we were just, you know super, superfluous for requirements and it was just like groundhog day, we were just doing the same thing, you know every day, get up and then wait till the end of the day and err you know I think certainly others felt it was import, you know that as a, as a stage that they’d reached where they felt it was appropriate to leave. We certainly wanted to stay longer, you know, we were the, the main friends for Kate and Gerry out the group there and err we wanted to provide as much support as we, as we could and I think the other thing was that Gerry ended up coming back to the UK and we felt that it was a good time, you know, to support Kate and be there while he’d gone so that not everyone had gone.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Err because we felt that the people who had been through that experience were the only ones who could really know what it was it was like and err so you know and that’s the spot that we felt the bond, you know, with Kate and so we waited till he’d done that and then it seemed like err the right time for us to, to leave.”
1485    “We’re not far off now, during the holiday did you see Kate and Gerry speak to anybody unknown to yourself?”
Reply    “At the, after Madeleine had gone or before?”
1485    “Before, before.”
Reply    “Before, err they, they made friends with other people who were in the complex err who you know we don’t necessarily, we didn’t perhaps necessarily know they were at the time but as, as the week went on you know it was obvious who they were and err you know these were people that they were playing  tennis with who they’d had lessons with err apart from that, you know, obviously all, all the nannies we got to know err there was no-one, you know there was a few people who were slightly more in the periphery who were the holiday makers there that we didn’t speak to as much, I might have seen Gerry speaking to them but you knew them, they were primarily, you know, people from the complex who were on holiday there. Err so there’s nobody you know you wouldn’t expect them to be talking with on a, on a holiday.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “In that, in the situation.”
1485    “Did you see them in a car at all whilst you were in Portugal, prior to Madeleine disappearing?”
Reply    “Err we all arrived you know at Praia Da Luz initially in the taxi err apart from that I can’t really recall.”
1485    “That’s it.”
Reply    “I can’t recall err seeing you know err going anywhere in a car.”
1485    “Is there anything that you consider pertinent or relevant to establish the material truth?”
Reply    “Err the, there are a few things but I don’t think this is the right forum for bringing those up.”
1485    “Okay. And finally, Mr PRIOR touched on the re-enactment earlier on, I think the re-re-enactment’s likely to take place either at the end of April or sometime in the middle of May. Do you see yourself attending?”
Reply    “I will do anything in my powers that could be helpful to shed light on what happened to Madeleine or bring Madeleine back, or to change the status that Kate and Gerry find themselves in. Though saying that, we have concerns regarding going back err for a re-enactment and those points that we have you know raised in a letter which I believe is being forwarded to the Portuguese Police. Err what we would like to see is you know some detailed answers to those points and we would also like to know that everyone else is taking part in the re-enactment because if everyone wasn’t there then it doesn’t seem that its particularly err worthwhile and obviously you know, problems with the press, you know, which would become very prominent the past twenty four hours, you know I think we would certainly want some reassurances err to you know, just, it’ll address people to look at the letter that we all sent and if you’re kind enough to answer those in detail then that is a, you know, an answer that we would make in light of what the response was to those points.”
1485    “Okay.”
Reply    “But I wouldn’t rule anything out.”
1485    “Okay. Is there anything else at this particular moment that you’d like to say?”
Reply    “No.”
1485    “Okay. I make the time err sixteen twenty five.”
Male knocks at the door, DC MESSIAH leaves the interview room.
DC MESSIAH re-enters the interview room.
1485    “Just one quick question David, just, you know the, we talked about the phones earlier on.”
Reply    “Yes.”
1485    “The number sixteen twenty one, did you find that in your phone?”
Reply    “Err I, I’ll have another look but I don’t think I did.”
1485    “Can you just have another look?”
Reply    “Yeah.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “So its sixteen twenty one?”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Err I can’t see it… I can’t see it in this phone no.”
1485    “Does the name Simon GREEN mean anything to you?”
Reply    “It does yeah, that’s my, err brother in-law, my other brother in-law, well my sister, sister’s husband.”
1485    “And where does he live?”
Reply    “Err he lives, the, the phone number which you’ve got which is the o, one, eight, five, or o, one, eight, five, eight.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “That’s, err, he lives there.”
1485    “Market Harborough?”
Reply    “Market Harborough yes, and sometimes it is easier just to chat and, you know if they were out and about on his mobile, he uses that one more, so I’m more likely to chat with my sister.”
1485    “Does he work in London at all?”
Reply    “He does yes.”
1485    “And obviously the calls on the fourth of the fifth at eight o nine and at nine fifty one and at ten fifteen, ten sixteen I beg your pardon, on the fourth, two calls and one text message. What, can you remember what the nature of those calls were?”
Reply    “Err what to Si, to Simon’s phone?”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Err…”
1485    “Or Simon called you I believe.”
Reply    “Yeah, err I mean, the general gist of it was how, you know how are you doing you know what’s going on, err and is there any help that you know you can have, you know that was generally the gist of the text and things. I mean I can find exactly, if I can find them on my phone or I can let you have them, but you know it was just obviously my sister, she was very concerned and she was doing everything that she could to be supportive towards obviously Kate and Gerry.”
1485    “Okay, well thanks for that. Okay then, I’m gonna switch the tapes off now, it’s now sixteen thirty, just (inaudible) sixteen thirty.”
Male knocks at the door, DC MESSIAH leaves the interview room.
DC MESSIAH re-enters the room.
1485    “You thought we’d finished didn’t you.”
Reply    “I know.”
1485    “(Laughs)”
Reply    “Not quite.”
1485    “Not quite, no. Not long now to go. Okay, I’m just gonna go over these, this phone issue again.”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah.”
1485    “I just, there’s just some areas that I’ve been asked to point out, or been asked to speak to you about.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
1485    “Who lent you these phones that Simon ALDRIDGE had organised for you?”
Reply    “Err I mean, Si, Simon’s brother err is a gentleman called Nick and Nick’s wife Nicky had got friends out in the Algarve and they were just you know basic people who were just willing to help us in whatever capacity it was, whether we wanted a room for the night or anything and they asked is there anything we can do, err whether they could do, and err and that was, you know, that was one thing we said well actually you know err Kate’s phone’s nearly ran out, we’re sat, we don’t know how long we’re gonna be at the Police Station you know could, you know, can they, you know is there any way of getting phones to us just so that you know, we can, for communication. Err and err so that was, that was a capacity really err of people.”
1485    “And where were these phones, when did these phones arrive?”
Reply    “Err when did we get the phones? When we were at the Police Station, err you know as, you know I just asked whether I could just pop downstairs there was someone who’s brought us phones and they said yeah, so I quickly popped downstairs, got the phones, and took them back into the Police Station. Err I can’t remember if there was any power in them when we opened them up but err so then that was, you know, so the phones were just, you know because we hadn’t got any other, anything there, so.”
1485    “And what phones were they? Do you remember what sort of, what make they were?”
Reply    “Err they were Samsung phones, err and I think they were Vodaphone SIM cards. Err the actual model, I can’t tell you the Samsung phone but they were, something like the Samsung three hundred, something like that.”
1485    “Yeah, how many phones were there?”
Reply    “There was, there was two err and we ended up, err again, we ended up keeping one and Kate and Gerry had one, I think we gave the second one to Kate and Gerry as well after a while but we were err you know because they’d got credit put on to them so we were just using those phones rather than run up the expense of our own phones.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “So err yeah.”
1485    “So the two phones, you’ve kept one and gave one to Kate and Gerry?”
Reply    “Kate and Gerry yeah.”
1485    “And do you have the numbers of those phones in your phone?”
Reply    “I don’t, no, no.”
1485    “Where are these phones now?”
Reply    “Err as far as I am aware that they, you know, remained in Portugal, again…”
1485    “With whom?”
Reply    “With Kate and Gerry.”
1485    “So Kate and Gerry took possession of that second phone which you had?”
Reply    “Well, they certainly kept the first one, the second one, the second one, sorry, no I think that’s rubbish. I think I, I may well have got the, I might have got the second phone. Actually I’ve got a sneaky feeling when I got home I tried the UK SIM card in it and it didn’t work so I could well have got the second phone.”
1485    “So is it likely that this second phone is at your home address?”
Reply    “Err that is a strong possibility.”
1485    “So two Samsung phones.”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah.”
1485    “One is, to your knowledge, still with Kate and Gerry.”
Reply    “Yeah.”
1485    “The other one you may well have at your home address.”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah.”
1485    “Did you use the phones often?”
Reply    “Not…”
1485    “In Portugal?”
Reply    “Not a great deal no, no, it was, it was, first of all you know we didn’t have any numbers in them already and then with being a Portuguese phone you know it was just a bit more difficult so we, if we ever used them, I mean which wasn’t often, we’d perhaps call Kate and Gerry using the Portuguese phone, but it wasn’t a kind of religious oh we’ll just use the, that Portuguese phone to err you know establish communication.”
1485    “Yeah.”
Reply    “Err you know and the other reason that we, we had the, one of the phones is because Fiona didn’t have a phone either so you know, so it’s like she had the use of the other phone as well.”
1485    “Right, so out of the two of you then, who predominantly used that phone?”
Reply    “I’d say Fiona.”
1485    “Fiona?”
Reply    “Yeah.”
1485    “And has it been used since it’s been in the UK?”
Reply    “No.”
1485    “Okay, okay.”
Reply    “And I’m just trying to think you know how much, you know the, the, I can’t remember you know obviously we were there for four weeks after but when the actual credit ran out, because I remember the credit running out and not being able to actually put anymore on even though it’s supposed to be quite straight forward but again, you know whether that was after, you know, three weeks of being out there or whatever I can’t remember.”
1485    “Yeah, how many times do you think you topped it up then?”
Reply    “I don’t, I don’t think we did, I don’t think I did. I don’t think I could work out how to do it to be honest.”
1485    “So when both of them arrived both of them had credit on them?”
Reply    “They put, I think they put, I think err I think they put forty pound credit or forty euros, you know, which seemed to last a lot longer than the amount of credit we were (inaudible) we were using our own err mobile phones.”
1485    “Just wait there a second I’ll just (inaudible).”
Reply    “Okay.”
DC MESSIAH leaves the interview room.
DC MESSIAH re-enters the interview room.
1485    “All done.”
Reply    “Okay.”
1485    “The phone, is it likely that I could collect it when I take you home?”
Reply    “I can certainly have a look for it and I can give you, I mean if you, if you wanted to have my other mobile phone with all the numbers in and you know if you can access text messages on that you’re welcome to have that phone.”
1485    “Okay, do you know where you’d be able to put your hand on it if you…”
Reply    “Err the Samsung one, again, there was a Vodaphone bag that was knocking around, and that would be where it is if err I can find it. Fiona might know.”
1485    “Okay, perhaps you could give her a call or something.”
Reply    “Yeah, yeah.”
1485    “Alright then, it’s now sixteen forty on this date.”
The interview ceased at 1640 hours when the tape recorder was switched off.

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