Read part one here.
Person Interviewed: Fiona PAYNE
Place of Interview: Force Head. Enderby
Date of Interview: 10/04/08
Time Commenced: 1110 hours
Time Concluded: 1234 hours
Interviewing Officer(s) DC 1485 MESSIAH
Other Persons Present None
1485 “Okay. That is recording. Okay. We will resume the interview. We are still at Force Headquarters and it is still Thursday the tenth of April two thousand and eight and I am still DC MESSIAH from the Leicestershire Police Major Crime Team. Could you tell me who you are please?”
Reply “I am Fiona PAYNE”.
1485 “Okay. And I make the time by my watch eleven ten on that morning. The same conditions, as you see, the interview is being videoed and that is the camera, you know have to look at it, you know, you can just talk to me as normal”.
1485 “One thing I forgot to inform you of earlier on is, it is being monitored by a colleague of mine and also by Portuguese Officers as well”.
Reply “Uh hu”.
1485 “Are you happy to carry on?”
1485 “I appreciate the first interview was quite tedious for you because, you know, you were struggling to remember”.
Reply “It’s not so much tedious, I don’t, as I say, I just try, and to pinpoint details is very hard at this point down the line”.
Reply “I don’t want to be misleading but I’m trying to be helpful”.
1485 “Yeah, of course”.
Reply “And I think that’s, it’s just getting a balance, erm”.
1485 “Okay. Same again, there is going to be a lot of open questions and take as long as you need to answer, think before you answer and, you know, if you are not sure, just say ‘I’m not sure’, you don’t want to commit yourself to something that might be inaccurate, alright?”
1485 “One thing I need to just clarify Fiona is, in the first interview we spoke about, you know, your movements day to day?”
1485 “And part of that rundown, if you like, was saying that, or from a note I produced, that you would actually go down to the pool at one o’clock’ish?”
1485 “It is probably about fifteen thirty more nearer the time?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we’d put the kids to bed and, as I say, every day may be slightly different, but, on the whole, one or two of us would stay in the apartment, out of me, my mum and Dave, and sometimes all of us, and, you know, it was okay if one of you wandered down to the pool for a stretch or whatever, but we were mostly based, erm, in the apartment for the afternoon until the kids woke up”.
1485 “Okay. I apologise if that was misleading in the beginning, alright?”
Reply “Yeah. And I just want to clarify as well”.
1485 “Go on?”
Reply “Because I’ve been thinking in the meantime”.
Reply “We were talking about the beach and, you know, I wasn’t sure when, and after the camera came off or the, you know, the recorder came off, erm, I was just saying to you, I actually am wondering whether we went to the beach at all before Thursday, just because I’m thinking about the weather and I remember thinking at the time, it’s such a shame for the kids that we haven’t really gone to the beach, because, you know, that a part of the reason we chose the resort”.
Reply “But it had been so kind of cool in the afternoons it, erm, hadn’t been much fun. So I don’t want to commit to the fact that we went there, I think Thursday may well have been”.
1485 “The first time?”
Reply “We definitely went on the Thursday and I think that might have been the first time we actually did that as a group, minus Kate and Gerry”.
Reply “Erm, and I think why I’m thinking that is, I know Kate and Gerry did go to the beach, I think they tried to have lunch on the beach with the kids on one of the previous days and we didn’t, you know, and that’s maybe why I’m getting confused”.
1485 “Are you able to say what day that was that you think?”
Reply “Again, I couldn’t tell you. We didn’t really see Kate and Gerry for any lunchtimes, but I know one of those, I remember Kate saying it was a bit of a disaster, because Sean put his feet on the sand and didn’t like it and it was cold and windy and it was all a bit of a disaster, so they didn’t do it again. Erm, tut, yeah, so, you know, I am backtracking, but I think Thursday was the first day that we went down after the sleep time”.
1485 “Right. Is it fair to say that, I mean, you mentioned earlier on in the interview that you didn’t, the only time you really saw Kate and Gerry was at the Tapas?”
1485 “Is it fair to say that that is”.
Reply “We saw them round and about during the day, erm, you know like in the afternoon, when I’m saying when our kids were asleep. I remember one afternoon I wandered down to the pool, erm, you know, while Dave and mum were up in the apartment, and sat and had a diet Coke by the pool with them, they’d just finished a tennis lesson, you know. So things like that, in passing, but we didn’t really do any activities altogether”.
Reply “Erm, as I say, they were very much having their tennis lessons during the day and it was just, you know, we saw them. And, you know, so I didn’t see much of them, erm, until the evening”.
1485 “Did you see Madeleine and the twins during the day up until Thursday?”
Reply “Not, not very often. Erm, I mean, the twins probably a bit more, just because picking, you know, picking Lily up at lunchtime or whatever, erm, they’d be picking the twins up. And then at high tea we’d see the kids altogether, that was really the only kiddie time, when they were all together and with Madeleine and the twins. Erm, and then after, after teatime when they’d all play. But that, that was the main part of the day where we saw, erm, Kate and Gerry and, and, you know, the children, their children”.
1485 “And how would you describe the family as a whole?”
Reply “They’re fantastic”.
1485 “You know, with the kids?”
Reply “They’re fantastic, you know, I’ve known Kate since two thousand and ever since I’ve known her she’s wanted children, you know, very early on in our friendship that was, you know, something she openly talked about. And they did have difficulties having children and, erm, you know, we’ve been very close friends throughout the whole time of their IVF, having Madeleine, and they, she was the most desired child on the planet”.
Reply “And ever since she has been born I’ve never seen them anything but absolutely happy, erm, and, you know, she, to say this makes it sound less important with the twins, but she always felt, particularly Madeleine, was extremely special, erm, you know, they’re a very, they’re a happy family”.
Reply “Very happy”.
1485 “Okay. I want to move on to Thursday. We spent a lot of time Sunday and Monday, didn’t we. Are you okay?”
Reply “Yeah, I’m fine”.
1485 “Take as long as you need. I will give you a minute”.
Reply “I’m fine, just carry on”.
1485 “You are alright. Okay. When I was trying to get the different days from you earlier on in the interview?”
1485 “You mentioned that there was a couple of quizzes and there was some tennis?”
1485 “If I jogged your memory and said that one, or the quiz was on Tuesday night?”
1485 “Does that ring any bells with you at all?”
Reply “Was there one, was there just the one quiz night, can you confirm that?”
1485 “That, I’m not sure”.
Reply “Because I thought there was two. Erm, certainly, erm, on, the one that you talk about, who joined us and”.
Reply “Erm, on a quiz night, whether there was one or two, if there was one it was only one, there was some, the tennis, erm, the aerobics instructor, we invited her to have a drink, she was the one doing the quiz and she joined us for the latter part of the meal. Erm, and that was the only time anyone every joined us at the table”.
1485 “Can you remember anything at all about that night now that you know that that was the”.
Reply “The Tuesday, erm”.
1485 “On the Tuesday?”
Reply “I don’t think there was anything else that was sort of exceptional or, or different, erm, you know, other than that, you know. I mean, most evenings, we, you know, we were having a good time and, you know, that, as I say, the quiz night I know provokes more hilarity because we were in discussion, because we were all arguing over the answers. Erm, but, as I say, that was the only thing that was different. I can’t remember her name, erm, the name of the aerobics instructor, but, yeah, she joined us that night”.
1485 “Right. And Wednesday, to try and jog your memory, was the ladies tennis?”
Reply “Uh hu”.
1485 “Does that ring any bells with you?”
Reply “Ladies tennis, well, yeah, we all, all the ladies did participate in, in that. That was, erm, I think it started six until seven. Erm, and I think we actually asked on the Thursday, we asked for the tennis, because we were the main ones doing the tennis in the evening, we actually asked them to change the time I think, whether that was the Wednesday as well as the Thursday or just the Thursday, to bring it forward, I think it was supposed to start at half six and we asked them to bring it forward so it fitted in more with the kids, erm, so it must have started at about six o’clock. Erm, and, yeah, I joined in and there was Kate and there was Jane, Rachael and my mum, they all joined in, and the boys had the kids in the play area and they were all sort of watching and cheering and jeering”.
1485 “Oh right. Was Gerry and Madeleine there?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah, we were all there”.
1485 “So Kate, who was Kate playing?”
Reply “Kate, well we all swapped around but we, there was two courts, erm, tut, and I think we were using a couple of the instructors to sort of fill numbers and, erm, or a couple of other ladies, who I couldn’t have told you their names, but they were, I think one was a Doctor’s wife, erm, a young girl, erm, tut, erm, and then I think there was one other, but mostly it was our, it was our group and, yeah, we all, we all sort of played each other really”.
1485 “Yeah. Alright. Can you remember anything else following on that day then into the evening?”
Reply “Yeah, I think you’re going into the evening. I’m just thinking we probably, erm, I think that night Dave probably took the kids back, our kids, a bit, you know, before we’d finished, to start off, erm, bath time, erm, and we, we would probably come along a bit later to help him, just to finish the tennis, I think that was sort of six until seven. Erm, but other than that, yeah, we would have, erm, done our usual routine, bedtime routine”.
1485 “And then the same again into the evening, nothing spectacular?”
Reply “Wednesday evening, no. As I say, I thought it was, I thought Wednesday evening was when Rachael was sick, I think you are saying it was Tuesday, but in my mind I thought that was, erm, but you’re saying”.
1485 “Well whatever you can recall”.
Reply “Yeah, I know, I mean, phew, as I say, I, she’ll know I’m sure, but I thought, I thought that was Wednesday night that she wasn’t feeling very well”.
Reply “Erm, no, but nothing, nothing else different”.
1485 “Alright. So before we move on to Thursday, is there anything, you have had a break, there is a couple of things that has jogged your memory, is there anything that you can recall before Thursday that we haven’t covered?”
Reply “No, I don’t think so. It was just a typical holiday really, I mean, you know, we all had a routine that we pretty much stuck to and that worked and, you know, there was nothing really that stood out or”.
1485 “Alright. Do you recall on the Tuesday night, I believe, Madeleine crying or somebody from the McCANN’s apartment crying?”
Reply “I thought that was Wednesday night. You see, I mean, I only knew about that because on Thursday night Kate had said, erm, as we were chatting at the table ‘Oh’, you know, ‘I wonder’, you know, ‘what’, ‘what she cried about’ or, you know, she’d asked Madeleine, erm, because I think Madeleine had said something ‘Where were you mummy, me and Sean cried’ and, you know, ‘where were you’ and that had obviously worried Kate and she couldn’t get anything more out of Madeleine, Madeleine had sort of moved on and, you know, didn’t say anything more than that and wouldn’t say, you know, whether she’d heard anything or been woken up or whether she had just woken up herself”
Reply “So that was on her mind”.
1485 “Right. So Kate told you that that happened on the Wednesday?”
Reply “Well she told me about it on the Thursday”.
1485 “Told you on the Thursday, yeah”.
Reply “So, yeah, thinking now, I just was thinking it was the Wednesday night”.
1485 “But you can’t remember whether she said it was Wednesday night that it happened?”
Reply “No, I can’t say that she said it was the night before”.
Reply “But I know I heard about it on the Thursday night when we were sat, sat down”.
1485 “Did you hear any shouting or crying at all?”
Reply “I mean, I know, I mean, there was lots of, you know, at bedtime there was lots of children’s noise, kids crying, because sort of kids do, but”.
1485 “Uh hu”.
Reply “Erm, I never heard any crying after they’d gone down”.
Reply “Not even, you know, not even in the middle of the night or, you know, erm, we never heard anything”.
1485 “Right. What I want you to do now, again this is, put yourself back into Thursday and recall as much as you can”.
1485 “I appreciate that your morning would have gone to round about the same pattern”.
1485 “But tell me from the time you picked up Scarlet and Lily say from, was it eleven thirty you would have picked them up again on the Thursday?”
Reply “Yeah, that, that day, erm, I actually picked Scarlet up with Kate, erm, and I’m trying to think what the time, the times were. I mean, that day we had been sailing, I think we were supposed to be doing wind surfing, but that day the, as I say, the waves were too rough and we ended up, Dave and I, taking out a boat together. And, and that morning I think Matt came out as well and he was on a separate boat, I remember we were joking around with him quite a lot. And then we were drenched and really wet and really cold, so I think we actually came back to the apartment to get, you know, more clothes because were cold and hadn’t taken enough with us. Erm, and then, so that would have been, I don’t know, eleven, half eleven, that we were back at the apartment. And then sat, erm, on, by the pool for a bit with Dave and then we saw Kate and Gerry and we just sat and had a chat with them. And then it was time to pick up the kids, so Kate and I walked from the Tapas area over to the main reception, going between, you know, there was a sort of path that went between the other Ocean Club complex as well along the road, erm, and she picked up Madeleine and I picked up Scarlet and then we walked back together and that was the only day we ever did, ever did that. Erm, and then when we got back they, you know, Kate too Madeleine to their apartment for lunch and, erm, I went up to ours for lunch. And that day, erm, I think was the only day that no-one else came for lunch, erm, tut, I think that was just me, Dave and my mum, and the others, Rachael and Matt, I think, had their lunch with Russ and Jane, erm, so those two families were together, Kate and Gerry on their own and us on our own. We put our kids to bed slightly earlier that day, thinking, because it was a nicer day, that we’ll try and get down to the beach and, you know, have a bit of a afternoon at the beach with them. So that day was slightly different”.
1485 “So what time did you put them to bed?”
Reply “Erm, I’d say it would be, you know, about one, half one again, erm”.
1485 “And what did you do at the time, once they had gone to bed?”
Reply “When they were asleep, I think that day, I know Dave had been talking about trying to go wind surfing because the weather was better. I’m just trying to recall. I think mum had tennis possibly, I think I just stayed at the apartment, Dave possibly, sort of halfway through the afternoon, while the kids were still asleep, went off to do some wind surfing and I think Matt and Russell had already gone down to do, to take a boat out a bit earlier, so the men were sort of out of the picture, and I don’t know what Gerry was doing. Erm, as I say, mum, I can’t remember whether mum was with me or not, she possibly had played a bit of tennis, I think she might have played a bit of tennis with Jane, I don’t know, I can’t comment on them, but I was around, I was around the apartment”.
1485 “Uh hu. So carry on then?”
Reply “And then they would have woken up, the kids would have woken up about sort of three, half three, erm, and I went down to the beach at that point, certainly with mum, Dave, I can’t, I really can’t remember now whether he came down then to go wind surfing or whether he’d left a bit earlier to do the wind surfing, I have a feeling it was just the girls on their own that walked down to the beach, because Jane and, erm, Rachael also brought their children and we all sort of headed down to the beach”.
1485 “So in that little group was?”
Reply “So in that group, yeah, me, mum, I think, as I say, I can’t say for Dave, I think he was already, had gone by then, yeah, Jane with, erm, Ella and Evie, well it would have just, it was just Evie actually because Ella was, would have been in kids club, and, erm, yeah, and Rachael with Grace”.
1485 “Was Kate with you?”
Reply “No, no, Kate didn’t come. They, they tended to use the kids club in the afternoon, for the twins as well as Madeleine, and they were the only ones really doing that, as I say, Ella sometimes went in in the afternoon, but the younger ones, you know, none of us put them in in the afternoon. So, again, that’s generally why we didn’t see them because they had things booked to do in the afternoon without the kids and we didn’t. So, you know, we had asked them but, you know, they had tennis lessons or something. So, yeah, we all headed, we headed off and then, once we were on the beach, we were, we were a little while just sort of the women and the kids really playing on the beach, you know, sandcastles and stuff. Erm, and then, at some point, Matt and Russell came back in and there was a bit of a laugh because Russ was saying that he saved Matt’s life or something, I don’t know, something had happened on the boat and, erm, you know, there was some jokes about Matt trying to capsize and drowned and all sorts. And then, a bit later, after that, Dave had came in from the wind surfing. Time wise I”.
1485 “Try and remember”.
Reply “I find hard, but, I mean, assuming we got to the beach about four o’clock, I’d say, you know, I’d say Matt must have got in, I’m sure it was Matt and Russ, about half four, erm, and then, about twenty minutes after that, maybe Dave. Erm, so by five o’clock we were all kind of ready to have a drink and feed the kids. Erm, so that, that group as a whole went up to the restaurant, erm, on the beach and ordered our, well the food for the kids, we didn’t eat, and we all had a beer. Erm, so, yeah, I’d say about five”.
1485 “Right. So there is a bar on the beach, is that right?”
Reply “Yeah, it’s the, I can’t remember the name, is it the Paradiso Restaurant, erm”.
1485 “Something like that, yeah”.
Reply “Something like that. Yeah, there’s only, it’s the one that’s on the beach, I think it’s pretty much the only one that’s got the sort of steps down to the sand and it’s got the play area outside, erm, a slide and swings and things”.
1485 “And when you went there, is it somewhere that you can sit inside or do you sit outside?”
Reply “Well it did have an inside area but we always sat sort of on the outside area, erm, just so the kids were free to come up and down and play on the beach”.
1485 “So when you went to, well did the kids stay on the beach or did the kids join you at the bar, at the cafe?”
Reply “They joined us, sat down and we would have ordered food, but while we were waiting for food, I mean, they were all over the place, you know, up and down, playing, erm, we didn’t make them sit down until the food arrived, so, yeah, they would have been playing round”.
1485 “Uh hu. And sort of what time do think the food came?”
Reply “Erm, I’d say somewhere between five and half five. I mean, there was always a little wait, but not too long. I can’t be any more specific. Erm, tut, I’m trying to think, I know what, I’m trying to think what time we left to sort of gauge it, I’d say about half five”.
1485 “You left the?”
Reply “No, that the food arrived”.
1485 “The food arrived about five thirty?”
Reply “Yeah, I think so”.
Reply “Erm, and then I remember it getting to tennis time, because it was men’s tennis that night and the men had all rearranged the time to suit us and it was getting towards six o’clock and, you know, they were going to be late, so I remember saying ‘Look, you better go because it’s not fair, you’ve moved the time then you’ll be late’. Erm, so I think that, that was sort of approaching five to six. And we were toying with the idea of getting the kids ice creams for pudding and then thought oh we probably don’t have time, but then we decided well, you know, why don’t you go off and go to your tennis and we’ll just give them their ice cream and follow on. And so I think they left probably about, you know, that being Matt and Dave and Russell, around five to six, six o’clock time. And the, you know, the wives stayed behind with the kids, they had ice cream and then we followed on about ten past six and we just walked back up to, to watch them play a bit of tennis and give the kids, you know, a little playtime. Erm, and I don’t think we stayed there that long that night because the kids were pretty, pretty tired. Erm, I’m trying to think, I’d say probably by seven o’clock we were, me and my mum headed back with the kids to start bath time. Erm, and Dave, we left him playing tennis for a bit longer. Erm, I think we’d bathed the kids by the time he got back, probably ten minutes later. Erm, and then I went for a run that night, after the kids were bathed”.
1485 “So it is after seven?”
Reply “After seven, it must have been about half past seven”.
1485 “Where did you run?”
Reply “Erm, I had a fairly standard sort of route, I’d sort of go down past the Tapas Restaurant, cut across to the far sort of right side of the beach as you are looking at it and then I would run along the beach full length, come back to the Paradiso Restaurant bit and cut up, erm, I mean, it’s hard to describe, cut up through the shops and then back again. But, you know, it was the same sort of route I did”.
1485 “I don’t know if this plan helps you at all?”
Reply “Yeah, it might be too small actually”.
1485 “Might be too small. You know, that is”.
Reply “Swimming pool, okay. Is that the Supermarket?”
1485 “Well that is the pool”.
Reply “The pool”.
1485 “There is the Tapas and there is the tennis courts, there is your apartments, there”.
Reply “And there’s the beach, you’ve got the beach there”.
1485 “Which way would the beach?”
Reply “The beach is up here”.
Reply “Yeah, I mean, I’d come out, I’d run down here, cut across to the far side of the beach, which must be somewhere down here, and then run the full length of the beach, erm, yeah, it’s not really all on this map”.
Reply “Erm, and then I’d just sort of come up and sort of, there was a sort of main road on a very steep hill, come up there and across and then back up again”.
1485 “And then back up?”
Reply “Erm, yeah”.
1485 “And how long would that take you?”
Reply “Erm, I’m quite slow”.
1485 “You are quite what, sorry?”
Reply “I’m quite slow. It was probably about a twenty or a twenty-five minute run”.
Reply “I would have been back by eight o’clock”.
1485 “By eight. And what was the weather like, was it dark or was it light?”
Reply “That day was a really nice day, which is why I wanted to do the run. And I remember the Thursday was a bit of a transition day, as I say, you know, with the weather, it just seemed to warm up, it was sunnier, erm, and it was a very pleasant evening, you know, it was a nice sunny evening, warm”.
1485 “Right. Just before I move you on from your run, if you can just take yourself back a little bit, when you was at the beach, when you was all eating before?”
1485 “Did you see Kate at all running?”
Reply “No. No, I, I know somebody did in the group, because they commented, but I didn’t personally see her run”.
1485 “You didn’t see her at all?”
Reply “No, no, but somebody, I don’t know which one of the group, did say they’d seen Kate run past”.
1485 “And you said that David had already gone up for his tennis lesson, what time did he leave the beach to go up for his tennis lesson?”
Reply “Well the way I recall it, it was, sorry, the, the men’s tennis, from the restaurant?”
1485 “Yeah, the men’s tennis”.
Reply “Erm, I think they all went together about five to six, six o’clock”.
Reply “I knew they were going to be a bit late, as I say, that’s why I’m remembering it was sort of five to six, six o’clock, because I remember sort of think, feeling it’s being a bit rude to not be on time when you’ve bought it back”.
1485 “Yeah, yeah”.
Reply “Erm, yeah”.
1485 “And then you got up there, once you had all finished eating, and you went to watch the men play tennis?”
1485 “Just tell me a little bit about that, who was playing who and was there any kids around?”
Reply “Erm, yeah, I mean, Gerry, phew, I don’t know who was playing who, but there was certainly Gerry, Matt, erm, you know, Russ and Dave, erm, and typically being men, it was all quite competitive and, erm, and far different to the women’s tennis. Erm, Kate and the kids, I think, as I said earlier, weren’t there and, you know, they, as Gerry said, were just absolutely knackered and Kate was getting them bathed and ready for bed. Erm, and, yeah, the others, sort of me, Rachael and Jane, with the kids, our kids, were just sort of watching them playing for a bit, we didn’t stay that long that night”.
1485 “Yeah. When did Gerry tell you that the kids were knackered and Kate was bathing them?”
Reply “I think that was something I learnt later or whether he told me at the time, I know they weren’t there and it didn’t really, it wasn’t really that surprising, as I say, we were a bit later getting there that night, whereas, on previous nights, when we’d had a playtime, it was immediately after the kids high tea”.
Reply “So, you know, it wasn’t a surprise that they weren’t there. Erm, and I know Dave had said to me later, because he, erm, after tennis he’d said he’d checked on Kate and the kids before going to tennis”.
1485 “Who was that, sorry, Dave?”
Reply “Dave, yeah. So he’d mentioned that later, so I don’t know at what point I knew that, but”.
1485 “Was that off his own back or was he told?”
Reply “No, he said, what did he check off his own back?”
Reply “I don’t know actually, I don’t know”.
1485 “How did that come into your conversation?”
Reply “Because he was saying how angelic they all looked and he said to Kate when we all sat down at the Tapas table as well and he was sort of joking how they looked like perfect children, because they were all sat there, all clean in their pyjamas, having a story”.
1485 “Yeah. But when did he, specifically, when did he tell you?”
Reply “That he’d done that?”
1485 “Done that, yeah”.
Reply “I think it was when we were getting the kids ready for bed and we were back in our apartment”.
1485 “Right. So what time did he come back then from his tennis?”
Reply “I’d say, if we came back about seven, he was about ten minutes after that, so about ten past seven, quarter past seven, something like that”.
1485 “And then you went for your run. So he told you that before you went for your run?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah”.
1485 “Is that right?”
1485 “And so we move on then to your run, it just takes you twenty minutes?”
1485 “You came back just before eight?”
1485 “What do you see when you return back to the Ocean Club?”
Reply “What, outside?”
Reply “Nothing remarkable. I don’t remember seeing anybody. I don’t remember seeing anything suspicious. I think I just came back and went back up to the apartment, didn’t really see anybody or anything”.
1485 “Any of your group?”
1485 “Okay. And to get to your apartment would that take you past Kate and Gerry’s apartment?”
Reply “It would take me past, I mean, up the road where their apartment is, you know, the access to the, the back of their apartment”.
Reply “It took me past that gate, yeah”.
1485 “Right. Was there anything?”
Reply “Not that I’ve noticed”.
Reply “Not that I noticed”.
1485 “Anybody hanging about?”
Reply “No, I mean, I’ve been asked that before”.
Reply “And I honestly, I don’t recall ever seeing anybody or anything suspicious”.
1485 “So you will be going back to your apartment to get ready obviously to go out for dinner?”
Reply “Umm, yeah”.
1485 “So what was the arrangements for the evening then?”
Reply “The same as they had been, meet up at half eight, erm, at the, at the Tapas Bar. Erm, I think I was a bit late, because by the time I got back and helped put the kids to bed and had got in the shower, it was generally me that held things up for us that night, erm, in getting out the door”.
1485 “Uh hu”.
Reply “Erm, and, yeah, there was nothing that different, other than we were, as I say, that that night we were a bit later leaving, erm, it was about ten to nine, five to nine, that sort of time when we, erm, left to go to the Tapas”.
Reply “And that night we all went together, erm, the kids were fast asleep, erm, there was me, Dave and my mum”.
1485 “So having got back to the apartment?”
1485 “You have showered?”
Reply “Uh hu”.
1485 “You have helped put the children to bed?”
1485 “Who was in your apartment at that time?”
Reply “My mum, Dave, me, Lily and Scarlet”.
1485 “And what sort of, what is the scenario in your apartment, is Dave getting ready and your mum getting ready or are they already ready?”
Reply “Erm, I seem to recall they, they were pretty much ready, showered and it was just me left to get showered and the kids were up but ready, ready for bed”.
1485 “Uh hu. And any conversation?”
Reply “Erm, no, nothing out the ordinary. As I say, at some point in that evening I was aware Dave had said he’d checked on, on Kate and, and the children, and that may have been after my run or before my run, I couldn’t, I just was aware that he’d done that”.
1485 “Yeah. So you got ready then between eight and ten to nine?”
1485 “And tell me about the time that you are ready to go, you leave out and then you arrive at the Tapas?”
Reply “Erm, on the way down, we went down the normal way, as I say, out onto the main road and round the corner. And just as we were approaching, erm, probably outside kind of the, Kate and Gerry’s gate, that sort of area, erm, we bumped into Matt who was heading back to chase us up, erm, and we had a joke, you know, we’re always late. He carried on up to check on Grace and we carried on down to the Tapas Bar and when we got there everyone else, bar Matt, was sat at the table. Erm, again, (inaudible) to get on and order. Erm, you know, there’s nothing else really”.
1485 “So let’s just clarify (inaudible). So your route would take you”.
1485 “Along here?”
Reply “Yeah, out there”.
1485 “Is this a road?”
Reply “It’s a road but there’s, yeah, there’s a path”.
1485 “Okay. And then you walk down and turn right?”
1485 “And then you have got the reception area there?”
Reply “Reception’s there, yeah. And somewhere sort of there we sort of bumped into, erm, somewhere between the gate and there”.
1485 “Bumped into Matt?”
Reply “We bumped into Matt, yeah?”
1485 “On his own?”
Reply “He was on his own, heading, heading back to the apartments”.
1485 “Okay. And was anybody, again, this is a duplicated question, but was there anybody about?”
Reply “Again, I didn’t, I didn’t notice anybody else”.
1485 “Weather conditions? Lighting? Was it dark?”
Reply “Erm, at that point, I don’t recall it being dark dark, it was probably getting dark, maybe dusk’ish, but it, you know, it was still fairly light”.
1485 “Yeah. And rain, dry?”
Reply “Ish, I mean, the evenings were quite cool and that night was certainly no different, it was quite cool”.
1485 “As you come to that corner, that is the corner that the McCANN’s apartment is on, isn’t it?”
Reply “The corner of the main road?”
1485 “Yeah. Would you be able to see the McCANN’s shutters from where you walked along here, along there?”
Reply “I don’t think, I mean, not that I ever looked, but they were sort, they were slightly sort of sunken, I guess, to the ground floor and then there’s a wall in front, so I don’t think, even if you looked, you could probably see in, and I don’t recall ever looking, but, you know, there was certainly a wall in front of the, of the ground floor apartments”.
1485 “Did you ever notice if there were shutters there, I know you said that you had got shutters at yours, would you notice that there were shutters there?”
Reply “I don’t think specifically. I can’t say I ever paid any attention, I knew all the apartments had the same shutters, you know, but, to be honest I never went into Kate and Gerry’s apartment before the night, erm, on Thursday”.
Reply “I hadn’t been in their apartment”.
1485 “Right. I have got to ask you this question, did you see the shutters open or did you see them closed?”
Reply “On the Thursday?”
Reply “I didn’t see them”.
1485 “You didn’t see them?”
Reply “What, after Madeleine or?”
1485 “No, when you was walking to?”
Reply “When I was walking, I wouldn’t have even noticed, so I couldn’t, I couldn’t tell you whether they were open or shut”.
1485 “And your route, how far away from the McCANN’s shutters, wall if you like, how far would you be away from it?”
Reply “Quite far away, erm, it’s a distance, as I say, you’ve got a wall and then the car park and the road, so we were on the road, so it’s, erm, I’m not very good with distances, I’d say, I don’t know, around thirty metres, something like that”.
Reply “Maybe longer”.
1485 “Okay. So you then walked down the road, you bump into Matt, you turn right, you go in towards the Tapas?”
1485 “Tell me who is sitting down when you get there or who is at the table when you get there?”
Reply “Kate and Gerry, erm”.
1485 “Are you able to draw”.
Reply “Another drawing, erm”.
1485 “If you try and picture the shape of the table?”
1485 “And, as best you can, remember, in relation to the line of the apartments, where everybody sat on the table?”
Reply “That’s the apartments and that’s the pool”.
Reply “It was a round table. I’m not very good”.
1485 “I should have gave you an egg shouldn’t I”.
Reply “Erm, Kate was to my left and that I’m positive of. Erm, and I think Gerry was certainly to my right, I think he was immediately on my right. Erm, I know Russell was opposite, he would have been about there. My mum was, my mum and Dave were sat, I think Dave was next to Gerry and mum next to Russell, they were certainly on that side of the table, erm, yeah, I think it was Dave, I’m not a hundred percent on that. And then I think it was Jane and then Rachael. That’s how I remember it. And I think possibly we were slightly rotated that way actually, because I remember me and Kate pretty much with our backs, erm, you know, to, to the apartments, so probably turn that round a bit actually. Yeah, Russell was probably, you know, more directly”.
1485 “So it is more sort of rotated?”
Reply “It’s more twisted, yeah”.
1485 “Yeah, okay. That fine. Thank you. So tell me all about the meal then, everybody is sat down, was there food in front quickly?”
Reply “Erm no, we arrived, we ordered, it was very quick that night, you know, coming, I have to say. Erm, it was a great, I know it sounds awful in retrospect saying this, but it was, everyone had had the best day and I think because the weather had been better and everything, erm, you know, the boys had got extra sailing in the afternoon, everybody was on a real high, that night particularly, and everyone was saying, you know, we’ve just had such a great day, erm, so there was a lot of, you know, a lot of chat about what everyone had been doing and, you know, and a really nice atmosphere around the table”.
1485 “Uh hu”.
Reply “Erm, yeah, I mean, we all ordered pretty quickly that night, I think, you know, there might have been a bit of wine on the table already when we arrived. Erm, yeah, nothing more than that when we arrived”.
1485 “So this is where I want you to think quite carefully now”.
1485 “In relation to the movement”.
1485 “Because you said earlier on the visiting was more intense?”
Reply “I think it just seemed to be more people getting up and down that night. Maybe because, as I say, Matt had already checked on his way, you know, when we were coming down, so he was missing, then he came back. And then I think it must have got to nine o’clock and then, for Gerry and Kate, that was their sort of slot, half an hour sort of, because they had been there on time, so he went pretty much straight away, you know, very soon after we’d sat down”.
1485 “So Matt had already gone?”
Reply “Matt had gone”.
1485 “Had Matt come back before Gerry went?”
Reply “Erm, I don’t know”.
Reply “I would assume so, because it didn’t take long to go back and, back and forth, so, erm”.
1485 “So Gerry went, what time do you think?”
Reply “That was fairly soon after we’d sat down, erm, I’d say about nine’ish”.
Reply “Erm, you know, we’ve thought long and hard about this as well”.
1485 “Yeah, (inaudible) and tell as much as you can”.
Reply “I know, I know. Erm, I couldn’t tell you how long he was away, how long he was gone, it didn’t seem like long to me, it didn’t seem any longer than, than any other check. But, erm, I knew he’d met and chatted to Jez, because he’d came back to the table and said ‘Oh I’ve just bumped into Jez’ and he had been chatting, erm, about the tennis and there was some more, erm, banter about that. Erm, and, you know, he reported back everything was quiet, you know, as he had every other night, there was nothing, nothing different about him or the way he was or what he said really. Erm, and then, at some point, Jane, erm, had left the table to go and check. Time wise, huh, I find it really hard to give you specific times because, as I say, I wasn’t the one clock watching, erm, but I know she left some time after Gerry to check on hers, erm”.
1485 “What do you mean ‘left’, did Gerry come back before she went then?”
Reply “No, no, I don’t think, I, I can’t be sure, I know what happened and I know what they’re say, you know, they’ve said and what they’ve seen, so obviously I’m piecing together what, what I know and I believe to be true, erm, so, you know, you’ve got to understand that as well”.
Reply “But I can’t, I couldn’t tell you how long they were away. I know Jane went and she came back and everything was fine”.
1485 “Yeah, then after Jane?”
Reply “Erm, after Jane, I think the next, the next people to leave were Matt and Russell together, erm, and that, again, I would assume is around the sort half nine mark, erm, just to fit in with the way they were checking the children. Erm, tut, and Matt, I do remember Matt coming back and saying well, you know, that ‘Evie had been sick so Russell was staying with her’, erm, and had told Jane, you know, ‘If you can kind of eat up and then go back and we’ll swap’. And I remember Jane wolfing down her main meal that had just arrived, erm, really quickly and then sort of heading back to relieve Russell. Erm, huh, I know everyone else has said this, because there was a lot of joking about Jane relieving Russell (laughs)”.
1485 “I was trying not to giggle then. Are you able to say what sort of, what time that was?”
Reply “As I say, I’m guessing, in my mind, it’s about half nine, because that would fit in with what they’ve done every other evening, and I know that was the sort of time it felt like, that half an hour had elapsed and, plus, thinking we’d had our starters and the main meals were arriving, so that was, that all sort of fits in, in my mind, with, with the time. Erm, Russell had ordered a steak, I remember that, that night, because I had ordered a steak and they were really perfectly cooked and his arrived, obviously, and he wasn’t there to eat it, erm, so they said they’ll keep it warm and I remember thinking well, you know, it’ll be really rubbish if you keep it warm. Erm, anyway Jane, as I say, wolfed hers down and headed back and then Russell came back to the table and, erm, and I recall this because I thought how good the service was that they actually came to the table and said ‘Oh don’t worry’, you know, ‘we’ll cook you another steak’, you know, ‘the last one would be ruined’. So he sat down and there was a bit of a wait while they did another steak for Russell, erm, and so that must be between sort of quarter to ten and ten, because I remember just before Kate returned to the table having, having gone to check on, erm, on their kids, because that was pretty much when Russell’s steak arrived, I remember that being at that point”.
1485 “Sorry, his steak arrived when Kate went to go and check or when Kate came back?”
Reply “I remember the steak being here sort of just before Kate came back”.
1485 “Did you see her go?”
Reply “Erm, I was aware she’d gone, erm, at what exact point, again, it’s got to be between quarter to ten and ten o’clock, somewhere in that time period”.
1485 “Yeah. Okay. So tell me what happened when Kate, how long Kate was away and how she came back and what were you doing, what was the mood of the table like?”
Reply “The mood was, as I say, it was very jovial that night, everyone was in really, really good humour, erm, there was a lot joking. Erm, Kate, she was gone, again, I wouldn’t have said it was for any longer, it didn’t strike me as a long period of time, she was gone any longer than any of the other checks. Erm, but I do remember her coming back, erm, you know, I never will forget”.
1485 “Go on?”
Reply “Erm, tut, she sort of raced back and she just appeared at the doors of the sort of reception area and just shouted across, erm, ‘She’s gone. Gerry, Madeleine’s gone’. And, you know, well you can just imagine the shock maybe. So everyone was just sort of still for what seemed like, sort of five seconds or so. Gerry jumped up and went ‘She can’t be gone’ and raced off with Kate. And obviously we all followed, bar my mum, who I had said, I had the baby monitor, our baby monitor, and, plus, at that point, I just thought well, you know, the assumption was that she must have just wandered off, so I said to mum, you know, ‘You stay put here just in case Madeleine comes down to the pool area’ and gave her the monitor, our baby monitor, and said ‘You you listen out for our kids’. So we all were sort of racing behind Kate and Gerry, erm, back up to the apartment. Erm, we didn’t go in at that point, I think Kate, erm, Gerry must have rushed in with Kate and pretty much immediately Dave, erm, Matt, Russell and myself split up in four different directions just to do a search, you know, again assuming that she must have just wandered off. Erm, tut, so, you know, I don’t know which way they went, but I, I went round the back of, erm, tut, well this way around the back of the apartments and round the back of the tennis courts on the main road and then cut down in front of the Baptista Supermarket and back up, that was the route I did”.
Reply “And by the time I got back everyone else had done their loop and at that point then no-one had seen Madeleine. Erm, I remember saying to Matt at that point ‘You go down to main reception and phone the Police’. Erm, and I, I don’t know what Matt, erm, I don’t know what Dave and Russell did at that point. I said ‘I’m going to go up to the’, erm, ‘Kate and Gerry’s apartment’. Gerry had come down at that point. They hadn’t found Madeleine, erm, panic was starting really. Erm, tut, after that really I stayed with Kate for the rest of the evening, I didn’t, other than going onto their sort of balcony and out the front area of their apartment, I was with Kate. Erm, and Gerry, he was to’ing and fro’ing, in and out, in and out. Erm, it was just awful”.
1485 “So having got back from your search around the corner, did you go then straight into the McCANN’s?”
1485 “What did you see when you walked in, describe it?”
Reply “At that point, Gerry, I don’t think was in the apartment, it was mainly Kate. And Kate was just, huh, utter disbelief and I had disbelief, thinking she’s got to be here, you know, what, how can this have happened. And by that point Kate was already saying that the, what she’d found when she’d gone back, which was that the, she’d found the window open and the shutter open and she was convinced at that point that somebody had taken, taken Madeleine and that’s what she was telling me and I was like ‘They can’t have done. They can’t have done this’, you know. And I looked, I looked throughout the whole apartment and I looked in all the cupboards, under the drawers, under the beds, behind the curtains, everywhere, erm, just, you know, trying to, knowing it had already been done, but you just do. Erm, tut, I looked, when I went into the room that Madeleine was sleeping in, the room was dark, Madeleine, erm, Madeleine’s bed was sort of folded back, the sheets, quite kind of neatly really, erm, Sean and Amelie were fast asleep in their cots, they didn’t stir, you know, I was opening the cupboards in the room and moving around the room, they didn’t stir at all, which that was, that was odd. Erm, we were trying to ascertain whether Madeleine could have got out, and I’ve already said earlier the shutters were very heavy, and I was almost trying to convince Kate that she could have opened the shutter and climbed out, although knowing that wasn’t a likely thing, but at that point we were just trying to pacify Kate in that Madeleine was going to be alright. Erm, and I, I think I touched the webbing in that room, but because Sean and Amelie were asleep, I didn’t actually open the shutter in that room, we went, I went to the front of the house and I was trying to lift the shutter at the, at the back, just to prove whether, you know, whether it could have been opened and whether Madeleine could have opened it from the inside”.
Reply “I mean, it was fairly obviously, I think, that that wasn’t what had happened and what could have happened”.
1485 “So what did you do, walk out of the apartment and round the other side then?”
Reply “No, I”.
1485 “Or did you do it from the inside?”
Reply “I did it from, I’m talking about, so, again, the back or the front, I did it from the back, which is where their balcony was”.
1485 “Yeah, yeah”.
Reply “Erm, I don’t know”.
1485 “How was Kate?”
Reply “Awful, erm, I’ve never seen such horrible raw emotion in my life and I’ve seen a lot of it in my job. Erm, tut, she, she was just bereft, she didn’t know what to do, she was just panicking, extremely frightened, extremely frightened for Madeleine and, erm, was wondering where she was or what was happening to her. And the helplessness, erm, of not being able to do anything, what should she be doing, what could they do. Erm, she was angry, really angry, tut, punching walls, kicking walls, she was covered in bruises the next day, because she just didn’t know what, what else to do. She was angry at herself, she kept saying ‘I’ve let her down. We’ve let her down Gerry’, you know, ‘We should have been here’. Erm, tut, she was praying a lot. Erm, I just don’t think she knew what to do, what to do. And she was just howling. It was just, just awful. I think as time went on it just seemed a massive delay from when we said to Matt to phone the Police, erm, that hour, it was an hour, it just seemed like an eternity, where nothing was happening, tut. Erm, you know, we’re all intelligent people, we were all trying to think what we should be doing and, you know, what’s going to make a difference. And Kate’s ringing, Gerry’s ringing anybody under the sun, family, they just don’t, they honestly just didn’t know what to do. So there was a lot of, Gerry’s in and out, I mean, they were just sobbing, going between sobbing and then feeling helpless and then ringing people and this frantic activity. Kate was desperate to have a Priest, which, you know, people find weird, but I think that was just her way of thinking ‘At least I can pray for Madeleine’ and her way of feeling that she was doing something. Erm, tut, but she wasn’t functioning”.
1485 “Did the twins wake up at all?”
Reply “They didn’t. They didn’t”.
1485 “In the aftermath?”
Reply “No, and that was the other thing, she kept going into the twins, she kept putting her hands on the twins to check they were breathing, she was very much concerned in checking that they were okay. But they were okay, I mean, they were fine, they didn’t, they were asleep, but at the time it did seem weird, I remember thinking, you know, when the Police came they turned the lights on, there was loads of noise, obviously from the moment Kate discovered that Madeleine was gone, the screaming and the shouting and there was a lot of noise and they, they didn’t, you know, so much as blink”.
1485 “When you were with Kate in the aftermath, who else was in the apartment, I know you say that Gerry was coming and going, was there any other?”
Reply “Gerry was coming and going. Dave came in and, erm, he came in initially with me, erm, when I went to Kate, I don’t think he went in any of the bedrooms, I think he was just mainly in the living room trying to put together what they should all be doing really, he was talking more to Gerry, so he was in. I didn’t see Russell or any of the other group in, in Kate and Gerry’s apartment. Fairly soon after, erm, a girl called Emma, who, I don’t know what her position in MARK WARNER was, she was sort of, erm, tut, I don’t know what you call them, she was mainly working at the reception area, just as a, erm, tut, I don’t know what you call her job title, she was sort of looking after everybody”.
1485 “Just one of the travel assistants or something, yeah?”
Reply “Yeah. Erm, huh, I mean, I don’t know what time she got there, it seemed quite early on, she was, she was in the room for the most part, it was me, Emma and Kate with Gerry and Dave sort of to’ing and fro’ing until the first lot of Police arrived”.
1485 “Did you speak to Jane during that time or was it after that you spoke to Jane?”
Reply “No, it was during that time and I think after I’d been in the apartment, I think the furthest I went away from the apartment at that point was just to go to the stairwell to check, because I thought nobody had checked, you know, up, going up in the building to see if she’d gone up there, and I’d started to go up the stairs and then Jane had come out and said ‘Oh Rachael’s already checked’ or somebody else was up there. And, at that point, erm, Jane had sort of rushed out and had said, you know, quietly, sort of almost pulling me away from Kate’s door, erm, ‘I saw a man carrying a child’. And the horror and realisation I think of what she had seen was quite evident at that point. And I took it as serious at that point, at what she was implying, that she thought she might have seen Madeleine. Erm, and I, in the panic, I just said at that point, I said, well the Police hadn’t arrived, I said ‘We’ve just got to tell the Police. We’ve got to tell the Police what you’ve seen’. And didn’t’ say anything to Kate or Gerry about what Jane had told me at that point”.
1485 “Did you make a conscious decision not to tell them?”
Reply “It wasn’t a conscious decision, but Kate’s, I was just there with Kate trying to be a support and it was no way appropriate to be saying, you know, ‘A man’s carried Madeleine off’”.
1485 “And did Jane tell you or give you a description of this man?”
Reply “No, not at, no”.
1485 “Exactly what was her words in relation to that?”
Reply “The only time I saw Jane was at that point that night when, and all, as I say, all she said, I can’t remember her exact words, but it, it was, huh, the way she said it was urgent, it was, she was frightened and she said, you know, ‘I saw a man carrying a child and I think it might be Madeleine’”.
1485 “And did she say where she saw him?”
Reply “No, not at that point. This was all in immediate panic”.
Reply “So I was running around, Jane, you know, everyone was running around. And I, I went back to Kate. And Jane, as I say, what I said to her at that point was ‘You’ve just got to make sure’, you know, ‘that you give that to the Police when they get here’”.
1485 “Was there just you and Jane at that point?”
Reply “No, Rachael was around, erm, in the stairwell, she’d been up I think looking on the other floors, erm, so she was around. At that point I don’t recall, I don’t know where Matt and Russell were, I didn’t see them really after, you know, our immediate search, until a lot later”.
1485 “And when Jane told you what she had seen how was her voice and how was her demeanour when she told you?”
Reply “She was shaking. I mean, we were all very shaken, I think the fact that by that point no-one had seen, you know, found Madeleine. Erm, tut, you know, as I say, I, huh, I know Jane and I know what she was saying, huh, I can’t remember whether she said it was Madeleine but I know the implication was that what she’d seen, in retrospect, was highly, highly significant and, and in her mind I don’t think really there was any doubt of what she’d seen was Madeleine being taken away. But I think the, it was almost, tut, everyone was trying to hope that that wasn’t the case, it sounds stupid now, but despite knowing even what Jane had told me, I was still hopeful Madeleine would be picked up, you know, by one of the MARK WARNER staff or, tut, and I think, you know, even for Jane, that was even despite what she’d seen, she was still hoping it wasn’t Madeleine”.
1485 “Okay. What did you do once she had told you what she saw?”
Reply “I went back to Kate. I mean, that, that was my main kind of role that night, again, was just, I was the only one really with Kate continuously for that evening and, as I say, at that point she was just in no state to be left alone and that was what I saw as my role really”.
Reply “I didn’t do any phone calling and I didn’t, I didn’t really do any more searching after that”.
1485 “Did you hear any phone calls or the nature of any phone calls made by members of the group?”
Reply “There were lots of, lots of phone calls going on with Kate and Gerry, erm, of which, yeah, I, I heard snippets and bits, they phoned the family, I know Gerry phoned his sister, Trish, and he was just sobbing and hysterical on the phone”.
1485 “Did you hear any of the conversations relating to any kind of TV crews, i.e. the BBC or the ITV?”
1485 “Anything like that at all?”
1485 “Did you hear any names who anybody was speaking to at that time?”
Reply “No, I mean, I know”.
1485 “Other than the family obviously?”
Reply “At some point in the evening I was aware that, I think it was really the late hours of the morning, that, erm, I think, was it Rachael who had contacted SKY. Bit I think at that point it was just, we just felt nothing was happening and, you know, you’re just desperate wondering what to do. And I think I was aware that at some point, I think SKY News it was or BBC, one or the other, had been called by a member of our group”.
Reply “But not Kate and Gerry, I mean, they didn’t”.
1485 “Tell me about the remainder of the, before you eventually went to bed, tell me exactly what happened?”
Reply “Erm, well the next thing really was that the Police, two Policemen arriving, erm, at Kate and Gerry’s apartment and they were Portuguese obviously, didn’t really speak any English and that was, that was awful again really, because we were obviously desperate and frantic and at that point time, we were just conscious of every second that was passing by and by that time it was over an hour, I’m sure, before they arrived, but it felt like longer. Erm, and they wanted to come in the room, obviously, and, you know, see where Madeleine had been sleeping and they were checking the shutters and we were just trying to get over the urgency and it just didn’t almost feel that they were recognising the urgency, although obviously with the language barrier, I can appreciate, you know, it’s very, very hard. Erm, and Kate was getting hysterical at this point, erm, she, you know, screaming, erm, because she just wanted somebody who she felt was doing, doing something that was going to make a difference. Tut, erm, and then, they were the only two Police Officers we saw for, it seemed like quite, I don’t know, this is where the time gets difficult, but another hour I’d say, erm, and then I was conscious of more sort of uniformed Police being around, sort of out the front. I mean, we were to’ing and fro’ing between the front of the apartment and the back of the apartment. And, erm, there were loads of MARK WARNER staff obviously running around the streets, they kept coming up the stairs at the back saying ‘Have you checked the apartment’ and we’re like, you know, ‘Yeah, she’s not here’. Erm, tut, and there were some other locals who were all trying to be helpful, some helpful, some not. There was a woman who worked, I think she was work, had worked in the bar in Praia da Luz and she had actually almost invited herself up onto the balcony and was just quite drunk and not being, just not saying anything very helpful and I remember getting quite cross with her, saying ‘Look’, you know, ‘Why are you here’, you know, ‘If you’re going to be helpful get out and look for her’ and, erm, and I remember Gerry actually asking her quite politely if she wouldn’t mind just leaving them. Erm, I think she was the only one really that, that actually came anywhere near the apartment that wasn’t one of us or a Policeman. Erm, I was conscious, yeah, of a lot of Policemen in the, I don’t know what you call them, the GNR or, they had the boots, the long boots and the uniform, so they were milling around the front and the back, again, all speaking Portuguese, we didn’t really understand, you know, what they were saying or what they were doing. Erm, and I think, as I’ve said in my other statement, that’s when I, around that time I saw Robert MURAT and that was at the front of the apartment. A I say, I’d been to’ing and fro’ing between the front and the back and I’d come out of the front, really just to see if anyone knew, had any information of what was happening, and, erm, Robert MURAT actually walked over to me and shook my hand and introduced himself, erm, and told me that he was, that he was a local, he was working with the Police and he spoke Portuguese and if I needed any help or wanted any help with translation then, erm, you know, he’ll be there to help us. And I withdrew from him, I didn’t, I don’t know why specifically I remember him, I mean, I haven’t got a very good memory for faces, I think the others will say, or people, but I remember him very clearly, because he looked a bit strange and he had a squint, he had glasses, he appeared as if he was with the Police, because he was standing in front of all these uniformed Police, and maybe it was my assumption that he was with them, erm, yet he was saying he was a local, and I didn’t quite, in my mind, I said, well how come you’re a local living down the road and you’re here in plain clothes yet you’re saying you’re with the Police, it didn’t, it just seemed a bit odd, erm, and he seemed overly in my face, I can’t think of a better way of putting it, he was very quite sort of almost forceful in his introduction and, you know, at that point I was sort of almost trying to steer people away from the apartment, any extra people that weren’t really needed in there, just because of what was going on inside and Kate’s state, so I didn’t really want somebody who I didn’t know, erm, in there, erm, and I think I said in my previous statement to the PJ, there was just something that made me uneasy”.
1485 “Had you seen him before he introduced himself?”
1485 “During the time that you were there?”
Reply “No. No, and I didn’t see him again. I was aware, I mean, as I say, on the balcony you could see down to the street and I was aware of him, erm, being around after he’d introduced himself and, again, he always seemed to be with the, these uniformed Police, in their vicinity, I wouldn’t say he was with them, I don’t know what his role was, but he was certainly around, but I didn’t speak to him again”.
1485 “So a one and only time?”
1485 “And exactly where did that conversation take place?”
Reply “It was kind of outside, erm, Rachael and Matt’s apartment, in the front”.
1485 “That is the road side?”
Reply “On the road side, but it was under the cover, sort of between the, where the stairs are and Rachael and Matt’s apartment, that area”.
1485 “Alright. And which direction did he come from?”
Reply “He, well he sort of came from the stair, where the stairwell was, that direction, and I was coming out of Kate’s, erm, apartment”.
1485 “So did he look to you like he had come from the actual apartment block?”
Reply “He was already in the apartment block when I met him so”.
1485 “Alright. And you say he was in front of the local GNR?”
Reply “Yeah, they were behind him and, as I say, it was my assumption he was with them”.
1485 “Yeah. Did you actually see him or hear him speak to the local Police?”
1485 “Did he actually offer you any assistance, any service or, I know you are saying?”
Reply “Saying translating, that was what he said to me. I mean, he did introduce his name and I couldn’t have told you it was Robert MURAT, I couldn’t recall his name at all, but I recognise him”.
1485 “Right. Oh I see. So when he told you, he was a Robert MURAT, and then you realised who he was later on from the?”
Reply “When I realised, in fact, it was the day he was made, erm, brought in for questioning and we were watching SKY News, it was the afternoon in my apartment and Russell was in the apartment, and obviously, you know, again, we were all very shocked, there was any progress, who is this man, and he was on telly and it showed a picture and I was like ‘Oh, is that the guy that was around on the night acting as translator’, you know, ‘with the squint’, because you couldn’t see in this picture, and Russell said ‘Yeah, yeah, that’s him’, but I hadn’t seen him at all in the days following, erm, you know, Madeleine’s disappearance, that, that on the telly was the next time I’d seen him”.
Reply “And that’s again what makes me positive that he was the man, because, as I said, the squint was apparent on the TV and I said ‘Oh is that’, and Russell should remember this, you know, ‘Is that the guy that’s got the squint’ and he was like ‘Yeah, yeah, that’s the same man’ and I said then ‘Oh, yeah, I saw him on the night outside’. But at that point we’d, erm, again this is something that’s baffled me, why would we lie about it because at that point seeing him around the apartment after Madeleine’s disappearance doesn’t mean anything, erm, and we didn’t know at that point that he had denied being there on the night, you know, we, we were just saying ‘Oh, yeah, he was around’, we’ve got no reason to, to make that up or lie, it’s of no consequence whether he was there or not afterwards, of implicating him in anything, so”.
1485 “Right. Okay. How did the, well I am presuming now we are into early morning, aren’t we?”
1485 “What happened and when did you finally get to bed?”
Reply “It was after four o’clock, erm, tut, again, I don’t know, that, that whole period, it’s hard to sort of put a time to it. I remember it being after four o’clock, probably about half past four when we went to bed. But in that ensuing time the PJ had arrived, erm, the plain clothes detectives, I think there was a couple of them and they’d been in the apartment and obviously they, at that point, had said they needed to close off the apartment or move the twins. Erm, so I’d suggested putting the twins up in our apartment, erm, Emma, who was there, had arranged some of the MARK WARNER Nannies to get some extra cots and more bedding, erm, and we set up the cots in our living room and a bed for Kate and Gerry as well, not that they used it, but, erm, and then I think, I think they were Policemen, I can’t remember who carried up Sean and Amelie. Erm, and we sat on the sofa, me and Kate with the twins asleep on us for a while, erm, and they didn’t wake up and, again, that was quite strange, even in the transfer and, and being handled by people that weren’t their parents, they didn’t, they didn’t wake up. Erm, and we settled them down and made a bed up for Kate and Gerry and I think it was around sort of half four’ish we decided we should all try and just get, get a rest, because everyone else had gone, you know, it was just, again, it was that feeling of helplessness really, everyone had gone, erm, you know, what are we supposed to do”.
Reply “Erm, tut, so Dave and I went to bed and we tried to sleep. Erm, I think about half an hour after that or an hour after that it was starting to get sort of vaguely light and Kate had come into the room just said ‘Look, will you’, would I look after Sean and Amelie and said they need to go and look for Madeleine and, erm, which I did. And I was conscious that, you know, Kate and Gerry were wrapped up warm and went out on the streets looking for Madeleine. Erm, tut, and the next morning is, again, it’s a bit of a blur really, I know Kate and Gerry had to go in for questioning, erm, to the Police Station. Erm, you know, we helped with, with the twins in the morning and tried to keep everything as normal for them as possible. Erm, and then Dave went in with, erm, the others for the first lot of questioning. And, erm, we were sort of left at the MARK WARNER for the day, that following day. Erm, so that’s, I don’t know, time is sort of stagnant really, that following day, it’s sort of hard to put times to anything. But we, we, erm, me, my mum and Rachael and Russell didn’t go in, we were expecting to go into the Police Station at any point really, erm, expecting, you know, we would have to do a handover with kids, waiting for the other to get back, but they didn’t actually get back until quite late, erm, and then, you know, we went in the evening”.
1485 “Okay. Is that everything you can remember?”
Reply “Umm, pretty much”.
1485 “Okay. Let’s give you a break and break for lunch and then we will, alright?”
1485 “I just want to cover a couple of points that you raised”.
1485 “Just going back to your meal, where you say that Kate spoke about, this is probably a little bit out of synch”.
1485 “But you said that Kate told you about Madeleine waking up?”
1485 “And you couldn’t remember, you didn’t, you weren’t sure whether it was the night before?”
1485 “Or, you know, the night before that?”
1485 “What were the circumstances regarding her telling you that?”
Reply “She did, she brought it up and that she, I mean, this is awful in retrospect as well, she asked what my opinion was on, erm, tut, on whether they were okay leaving the, the doors unlocked, because she was saying ‘Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or’, erm, ‘or locking it and, you know, finding that we’re not there and the door’s locked if she woke up’, because Madeleine had woken up, what I thought was the night before. Erm, tut, and it was in that context really, just asking, you know, what I thought. So it was obviously something that was on her mind a bit, huh”.
1485 “So she asked you what your thoughts were regarding locking?”
1485 “Did she say whether she had locked or?”
Reply “No, that was the point, I think they said they’d left it, well she’d said she’d left it unlocked”.
1485 “Left the patio?”
Reply “And she felt a bit nervous about it but Gerry, Gerry had sort of said ‘Oh it will be fine’, you know. But she was obviously, because it wasn’t something she was quite easy with, that’s the way it came across, you know, but, but Gerry said, you know, ‘It’ll be fine. It’ll be fine’. Because I don’t imagine she would have said anything otherwise if it hadn’t been on her mind. And the fact was she, she, you know, commented on it being really strange that, that Madeleine had said this about waking up and them not being there and she’d mentioned that in the context of that conversation”.
1485 “And can you remember exactly what she said that Madeleine had said?”
Reply “Tut, just words such as, erm, ‘Sean and I woke up and we were crying mummy and where were you’”.
1485 “Okay. Did she say what she said to Madeleine after that?”
Reply “No, I think, it was more, the conversation was more Kate said she was trying to get more out of Madeleine, but as kids are, you know, they sort of move on and she wouldn’t really, she couldn’t really get out of her what had caused her to wake up or, or, erm, you know, whether she’d just woken up anyway and, you know, she never, never got that out of Madeleine”.
1485 “And what did you say?”
Reply “She didn’t seem frightened or anything, I mean, that is what Kate did say, you know, it wasn’t something that had frightened Madeleine. I said, in the context of the holiday, I guess I just said ‘Oh I’m sure they’ll be fine’”.
Reply “Much to my regret”.
1485 “Was that the early part of, I mean, because you have only got a window of about an hour really, haven’t you, in between, you know, you sitting down and Kate going and raising the alarm?”
Reply “It was fairly early on in that evening”.
1485 “Fairly early?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah”.
1485 “Could it have been the time that Gerry had gone to do the checking and then subsequently ran into Jez, could it have been around about that time?”
Reply “I couldn’t say, I mean, you know, I’d say it was in the first half of the evening”.
1485 “Yeah. Is there anything else that you can remember about that conversation?”
Reply “No, as I say, it just strikes me, in awful retrospect, that, you know, Kate, I think, had done something that she wasn’t quite happy with, in leaving the doors unlocked. And that is something again that she is going to beat herself up about for a long time to come because, you know, you, you like think that you acted on your instincts and I think her instinct was that that was something she wasn’t really happy to do”.
1485 “When the parents, and I know that you said that you subconsciously wasn’t taking that much interest, but when the parents came back on the Thursday, having done their relaying of checking, can you remember anything that anybody said or anybody’s demeanour that was different to how they left?”
Reply “Nothing, nothing, everyone came back, as I say, everyone was in good spirits that night, there was a lot of laughing and joking, there was no change in, in anybody coming back as from when they went”.
1485 “Is there anything at this present moment about what we have been talking about that you wish to elaborate on or what you have said has jolted something else in your memory that you haven’t already said?”
Reply “There’s something I want to get in, which is something that happened a few days after, erm, with regards to Jane. You were saying, did she offer any description, which she didn’t to me but, I’m trying to think whether it was the Saturday paper or the Sunday paper, my mum had bought a paper and it was in our apartment lying around and I had read it sort of the day, you know, I think it was the Saturday paper, I had read it and, erm, it said in this paper a description of what Madeleine was wearing and it put white pyjama bottoms and I read it and thought, well that’s wrong, because I know I was with Kate on the night as she was giving her description and I knew it had a pattern on the bottoms and a frill at the bottom, so I remember being a bit, huh, well that’s just wrong, you know, how can they get it wrong, this is a National Newspaper. But then Jane came later that day and read the same report and she said just off the top, you know, after reading it out loud, ‘Well maybe it wasn’t Madeleine I saw then, if she was wearing white pyjamas, because they weren’t white pyjamas’ and I said ‘Well what were they’ and she said ‘Well they had, I’m sure they had some sort of pattern on them and a roll-up or some detail at the bottom’. And at that point my blood ran cold, because they were Madeleine’s pyjamas. And, you know, that was the description she gave, having not seen Kate, having not talked to, to anybody about what Madeleine was wearing. And, erm, and I think we both, you know, just thought there’s no doubt in our minds that that was Madeleine”.
1485 “Yeah. And who was that to, that was to the Local Press, was it?”
Reply “What, the newspaper?”
Reply “No, it wasn’t, it was a National Newspaper that put”.
1485 “It was a National one, was it?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah, as I say, I think it, I think it was soon after, I think it was the Saturday, my mum might still even have the paper actually, she was the only one buying any, huh, erm”.
1485 “Okay. I am going to finish the interview now, alright?”
1485 “And I will tell you that there will be more interviews this afternoon, alright?”
1485 “So just relax yourself and have something to eat”.
1485 “And we will speak later”.
1485 “It is now twelve thirty-four”.