Date of Interview: 10/04/08
Time Commenced: 1410 hours
Time Concluded: 1553 hours
Interviewing Officer(s) DC 1485 MESSIAH
1485 “Okay. The machine is now recording again and we are being filmed and monitored by my colleague and members of the PJ and parts of Leicestershire Police, erm, us as well”.
1485 “It is still Thursday the tenth of April two thousand and eight and I make the time by my watch fourteen ten, okay?”
1485 “I am DC Ivor MESSIAH and I am with the Leicestershire Police Major Crime Team. Can you just tell me who you are please?”
Reply “I’m Fiona PAYNE”.
1485 “Okay. As before, I am just going to ask you quite a lot of questions, I say ‘ask you a lot of questions’, I am going to try and get you to do a lot of the talking”.
1485 “A lot of the questions are open and I would like you to exhaust your answer as much as possible. And if you need time to think about a question or an answer then take as much time as you need. And, as I say, try and answer every question to its entirety”.
1485 “Do you understand that?”
1485 “Alright. And all you are is a witness, you are not a suspect. Right. Okay. This next stage of interviews is going to be based around questions being given to us by the PJ, the Portuguese Police Officers, in relation to your stay in Portugal”.
Reply “Uh hu”.
1485 “I mean, a lot of the questions, you have answered, but I am just going to put the question to you”.
1485 “Just so that we have clarified”.
1485 “You know, the Portuguese agenda. Does that make sense?”
Reply “Yeah, that’s absolutely fine”.
1485 “Okay. The first question I am going to ask you is, how did you check your children?”
Reply “Erm, as I said earlier, we had brought a monitor with us, which we use at home, a digital monitor, erm, and that’s what we chose to use while we were out there. We ascertained on the first day we were there that it worked, you know, from the distance that we were at, absolutely perfectly, we felt no apprehension at all about using that. So, as I drew in the diagram, we put the base unit between the two rooms, on the top sensitivity and I sat with it at the table literally plonked right in front of me for every evening that we were out”.
1485 “Yeah. And you used it every single night that you were?”
1485 “At Portugal?”
1485 “Did it ever go off or did the children ever wake up?”
Reply “In fact it’s probably the first week we’ve had where our children, Scarlet being the youngest, actually slept for a whole week all the way through, I just think they were so exhausted”.
Reply “They just, you know, they slept very well”.
1485 “Yeah. Okay. Do you normally use it when you are travelling?”
Reply “We’ve used it before, erm, we haven’t really done what did in Portugal before, i.e. leaving the apartment to, to go and have a meal. Erm, we’d used it, as I said, the year before we’d gone to Greece, erm, and at that point Scarlet was about three months old, erm, and in that scenario, we’d taken it with us, we didn’t really use it much. I remember Matt and Rachael using it, erm, for Grace, because she was quite young at the time, erm, in that situation they were in a different villa and they came to our veranda in the evening for a drink and used it much like we did in Portugal. But we didn’t really need it much, I suppose, in Greece”.
Reply “Erm, but I do always travel with it when we go away”.
1485 “I take it, have you ever loaned it to anybody?”
Reply “No, other than”.
1485 “Did you ever loan it”.
Reply “Other than Matt and Rachael on that holiday”.
Reply “But to people I know, no. No, it stays at home otherwise”.
1485 “Did you ever loan it to say anybody on this holiday, perhaps during the daytime or?”
1485 “It was always in your possession, was it?”
Reply “It was always in our possession”.
1485 “Okay. I believe you have answered this question as well, but I will ask you again anyway. What time did you come back from the beach on May the third?”
Reply “Erm, I believe we left the beach at around sort of just after six, ten past six, something like that, so we would have been back, it would have taken us a good ten minutes to walk back”.
Reply “So it would have been, I’d say, about twenty past six, twenty-five past six”.
1485 “And who were you with, was it just yourself or was it with others?”
Reply “No, I had my children, Lily and Scarlet, erm, Rachael had been there with Grace and Jane with Ella and Evie and my mum, keep forgetting my mum”.
1485 “Your mum, yeah. Was your husband there?”
Reply “When we walked back?”
Reply “He’d gone earlier with, with, erm, Russ and Matt, they’d all left earlier to go for the tennis, the men’s tennis”.
1485 “Right. Oh because you said you thought it was rude that they”.
1485 “That they wanted to go back early or something?”
Reply “No, I, I said they should be there on time for the tennis”.
Reply “Being as they’d asked to move the time earlier”.
1485 “What time would the tennis have started then?”
Reply “I think usually it was half six. This is where, you know, I can’t remember whether we changed it the night before as well. But I know, because we were the main group using the tennis evening, you know, they said oh well it’s fine to move it back to a different time because, you know, we were kind of the only ones playing. So I can’t remember on Wednesday whether it got moved back to six o’clock. I’m pretty certain on the Thursday it was moved to a bit earlier”.
Reply “Six until seven”.
1485 “And the next question is, where were you exactly between six pm to seven pm? I know you have”.
Reply “Six to seven. So, from six to ten past six, I would have been at the, erm, the Paradiso Restaurant, or whatever it’s called, on the beach”.
Reply “Erm, you know, and then we walked back up, so I’d say that would take ten or fifteen minutes. Then we went straight to the tennis courts area, the play area with the children, erm, and we would have stayed there, you know, for fifteen, twenty minutes, before going up to the apartment. Erm, and we went straight from the play area to the apartments”.
1485 “Yeah. And so, what you are saying is, you were at the Paradiso until ten past six?”
1485 “Then it took you fifteen minutes to walk up?”
1485 “So you would be up to the tennis courts?”
Reply “We were certainly there by half past, I would say”.
1485 “By half past?”
Reply “Half six, yeah”.
1485 “Watched the tennis for about fifteen minutes, that takes to you to quarter to?”
Reply “Yeah, I’d say, yeah, between fifteen, twenty, twenty-five minutes, that sort of time, but I certainly would have left before seven to go back and start bathing the kids”.
1485 “Right. And when you were at the tennis courts, exactly who was there?”
Reply “Erm, the people that walked back with, with me, so Rachael and Grace and Jane and the kids and my mum. Erm, and then the men were playing tennis, so Gerry, erm, and Russell and Gerry, sorry, Gerry, Russell, I’ve forgotten all their names (laughs), Dave and Matt, so they, yeah, they were all participating. I couldn’t tell you when, if, if any of the other women left, what time they left to sort their kids out, you know, maybe a bit later, it’s not we all went together or anything, but I couldn’t tell you who left when”.
1485 “Yeah. And was it just your group that was playing tennis at that time?”
Reply “In the men’s tennis?”
1485 “Yeah, in the men’s tennis”.
1485 “Was there anybody else there for example?”
Reply “Erm, tut, no, I can’t recall. Erm, tut, there was this other Doctor, guy, he played a lot of tennis, I think he might have been there, he was a young chap, erm”.
1485 “Do you know his name?”
Reply “No, I mean, Kate and Gerry were sort of more, as I say, they were all the tennis side, they were a bit more friendly with the other people that had been playing that sort of tennis. Erm, so there was this other guy and a guy called Steve, I think, possibly. I don’t think it was just the four of them. Erm, again, I couldn’t, I couldn’t swear on that”.
1485 “As I understand it, there was a tennis tournament taking place the following day, wasn’t there, was there nobody practising or?”
Reply “Well there was only two courts and during that time, because this was a set, erm, MARK WARNER tennis sort of hour”.
Reply “You couldn’t book the courts for practice, erm, so both courts were, for that hour, the men’s tennis. Erm, so I don’t recall anyone else playing in the, you know, or practising. Erm, I think, you know, I, I, as I recall, I mean, I couldn’t say for sure whether there were other men there, I seem to remember there being a lot of focus on them sort of playing what they wanted to play, the, you know, out of, you know, Russell, Matt and, erm, and Gerry, you know, I’m sure they were practising doing shots and things like that, which is what they wanted to do, so I think if there had been other people there, they would have been having to join in with that. Erm, because I think, I mean, Dave on his camera might even have photos, I think I even took photos, erm, of them practising doing a serve”.
Reply “You know, measuring the speed of the ball and all this sort of stuff, you know, it was all a bit more, as I say, competitive than, than the girls. Erm, I can’t swear on it that there was anybody else present basically, no. Maybe I’m not tuned into it”.
1485 “Yeah. What I was going to say was, that I understand that the kids had a tennis hour round about eleven o’clock in the morning during that day and that Madeleine had been part of that practice. Were you aware of that?”
Reply “No, no, because our children weren’t of that age really, they sort of did different things”.
Reply “I mean, obviously I was aware after, I’ve seen, I’ve seen pictures”.
1485 “Because Jane TANNER had actually taken a picture of Madeleine with the racquet?”
1485 “Were you there?”
Reply “No, I wasn’t, I wasn’t there”.
1485 “No. So, and again, you have answered this question, but between six and seven as well, could you tell me where David was?”
Reply “Erm, I can up to a point, yeah. He was, as I say, he left, as I see it, around six, erm, and then I wouldn’t have seen him again until I got to the tennis courts to see him play tennis, so that would have been about half six and then he was playing tennis for that whole half an hour and, as I say, we left him playing tennis, when me and my mum went up to bath the kids and he, he didn’t sort of return until after seven, ten past seven, quarter past seven, something like that, so, yeah, that’s where he was. And then the rest is what he’s told me, erm, again, I couldn’t tell you times, but I know before he went, went to tennis, he popped in on Kate and the kids, erm, and saw them all in their pyjamas, ready for bed, having a story, before going to join for the tennis, so I can only assume that that was between, erm, you know, six and half past”.
1485 “So he didn’t tell you a period of time where he did that then?”
1485 “He didn’t tell you the period of time which he checked on?”
Reply “Well he said it was before tennis”.
1485 “Before tennis?”
Reply “Yeah, before going to the tennis”.
1485 “And the next question is, okay, and you have just answered it. If he is not with you during this period then where did he go and with what intention? Well it is obviously it is to play tennis, isn’t it?”
1485 “Although you can’t say one hundred percent, can you, if he was on the tennis court between six and seven, can you?”
1485 “You can say he was there between quarter to seven and seven?”
Reply “I feel I’m answering Dave’s question for him”.
Reply “Because all I know is that he, he said to me later on that evening that he had been in on Kate and the kids. Erm, now I’m taking that as before tennis, whether it was that Gerry stayed on playing tennis and Dave came back earlier and popped in before coming up to our apartment, I, I can’t, I can’t be a hundred percent on that”.
Reply “Erm, you know, contrary to what you’re thinking, I mean, huh, you know, we don’t”.
1485 “I don’t think”.
Reply “Well, you know. Dave’s, erm, you know, I believe that’s for Dave to say what he did really”.
1485 “Sure, yeah”.
Reply “But I know, I know he said”.
1485 “It is your interview”.
Reply “Yeah, I know he said he’d been in there”.
Reply “Erm, and that was before coming back to our apartment, so between, between six and seven o’clock”.
1485 “Yeah. If you don’t know you don’t know”.
1485 “That is the answer really, isn’t it?”
1485 “During your stay at the Ocean Club holiday apartment, did you ever leave your apartment doors and windows open?”
Reply “No. No, I mean, generally there was always, if we left the apartment open, there would have been one of us in it, and obviously there was three adults. Erm, we did occasionally leave, because there were three of us and only one key, if we were doing different things, we did, occasionally, during the daytime, leave the key under the mat at the front door just so my mum could get in and out. Erm, but if we were, if we were going out for the evening altogether, we took the key with us, so it was only during the day we sometimes did that”.
1485 “Yeah. Incidentally, when you were actually in your apartment, you know, locked up for the night?”
1485 “What is the securing arrangements, if you like, what happens, how do you lock your French doors, how do you lock you?”
Reply “The French doors were fairly flimsy, I think they were just, as I remember it, just one of these little vertical sort of slots that go up and down and that was it, you couldn’t really lock it any more than that. Erm, as I say, the shutters that were on the windows, we never really touched. The window in the kitchen, we did open that, just when we were cooking and stuff, erm, but we would close that and lock it, I can’t remember what the lock mechanism was on it”.
Reply “But, erm, and other than that, once we were in, as I say, the front door had the double lock on it and we generally, erm, used the double lock once we were in for the night and when we were going out”.
1485 “So single locked it when you went out and double locked it when you was in?”
Reply “No, we used to double lock when we were going in and out”.
1485 “In and out”.
Reply “But, you know, but you were saying, when we were in for the night we just locked it from the inside. Yeah, the kitchen window would have been shut, as I say, we always kept it shut, unless we were cooking, and locked”.
Reply “And the same with the French doors really, if they weren’t open they were shut and locked, we didn’t, we didn’t ever leave it open really”.
1485 “What about your internal doors?”
Reply “There were no locks that I recall, other than on the bathroom, on the internal doors. Erm, and was kept Lily’s ajar, erm, and Scarlet was in the room with us and we probably shut that when we were asleep”.
1485 “So at any time would the internal doors be closed?”
1485 “Well at any time during your holiday?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah, at night-time”.
1485 “At night-time”.
Reply “Ours would be, but that was the only door really, as I said, Lily always like to have a bit of light coming in from outside so she always sleeps with the door ajar, erm”.
1485 “Scarlet is in with you, isn’t she?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah, so it would have just been our room that the door would be shut”.
1485 “What about when you go for something to each, because that would be the time that you would leave the kids?”
Reply “The time when we were leaving the kids, the doors were both ajar, Scarlet and Lily’s room”.
1485 “Yeah. And the French door would be locked?”
Reply “Locked, yeah”.
1485 “Using that little latch?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah”.
1485 “And the”.
Reply “The outside door would be locked, the front door”.
1485 “Would be locked as well?”
1485 “And there is just one key?”
Reply “One key”.
1485 “And who would keep possession of that?”
Reply “Whoever was last to lock it really. Erm, it was usually my mum, who took it upon herself, because she carries a handbag everywhere, to keep, erm, keep the key if we were all out together”.
1485 “What about the rest of the party, Kate and Gerry, did they ever discuss with you whether they locked their doors or their windows when they were in and out?”
Reply “Erm, I mean, I was aware of them swapping their arrangement at some point, because I know they had been coming, using the front door, erm, which is the door with the key, to go in and check the children, and then, at some point, that changed to using the back door, just because, as you can see from the map, it was quicker for them to do that and easier to get in, then just sort of quickly nip in through the French doors and out again. I couldn’t tell you what point that was, but I know, I know there was a conversation about, oh we’ve started nipping in that way rather than going the long way round. Erm, so, I suppose, at that point, that’s when they, because you couldn’t lock the French doors from outside, that’s when they weren’t locking it”.
1485 “Yeah. How far down the week was that?”
Reply “Erm, I mean, my feeling is, you know, they did it the front way for a couple of night and the rest left it open, but I don’t know, I mean, they’d know that, as I say, I just remember the conversation”.
1485 “Yeah. Did Kate ever discus that with you, you know, when she discussed about Madeleine, did she ever discuss, you know, the?”
Reply “No, as I say, it came up at that, that conversation, which I think was on the, on the, on the Thursday night, about, erm, you know, whether I would feel happy leaving, leaving a door unlocked, but that was the only time I’d heard Kate sort of almost saying, question whether they should do it or not”.
1485 “Did she say that she actually left it unlocked then?”
Reply “Yeah, she must have done, because I knew that it wasn’t locked. And I was a bit”.
1485 “And did she”.
Reply “I mean, I was a bit surprised, I mean, Kate, you were asking about what they’re like as parents, and they’re certainly not, erm, paranoid parents, what I would call paranoid parents, you know, but they’re very, very careful parents. Erm, you know, I’ve got friends who are very laid back and, you know, I wouldn’t be surprised, erm, for them to feel happy doing that sort of thing. But it did surprise me a bit with Kate, because I think, you know, she is, between her and Gerry, they are very different, she is very cautious, Gerry, erm, you know, is probably more sort of happy to, tut, relax and go with the flow and that sort of thing, Kate is very, very much more cautious. So, you know, I think, as I said earlier, I think that was something she wasn’t quite happy with”.
1485 “Did she say that she had confronted Gerry over that matter?”
Reply “No. No, I mean, I think they’d discussed it and, you know, she, she had, huh, it sounds like it happens a lot, when I say, you know, about deciding to go on holiday, but, you know, he’s very much ‘Oh it’ll be fine’, you know, and she was like, you know, yeah, most of the time he’s probably right, you know, she worries a bit too much and he worries less. But, you know, I don’t think there was an issue between them about it but, as I say, Kate was, it was just something that I’m sure was on her mind that night”.
1485 “Yeah. And did they, during the aftermath, if you like, did they discuss how they left their doors on that night inside?”
Reply “As in the French doors?”
1485 “Well, you know, the French doors and the inside doors, did they discuss with you how they left the doors?”
Reply “They always, Madeleine, the room Madeleine, Sean and Amelie were in was always left ajar, I think for the same reason that we leave our kids doors open, they liked a bit of light they didn’t like it to be shut fully, so I was aware of that. And then I know that the French doors, although not locked, were closed, and I think the curtains pulled to as well. Erm, and I know there’s been a lot, when Kate, the night when we came back and Madeleine was gone, and I think that was something that had, erm, there had been some discussion about, because she’d, the door had slammed, erm, when she’d gone in, had slammed shut, and she’d gone back to look, thinking she’d left the French doors open and, in fact, they were shut and she thought, well where’s the breeze coming from, and it was then that she’d opened the door to realise that the window was open and that’s why the door had slammed”.
1485 “Right. What about the rest of the group, Jane and Russell, did they ever discuss with you about their locking arrangements, doors and windows?”
1485 “I know what you are going to say, you are going to say, ask them, but, you know, I am just asking you whether they asked?”
Reply “It wasn’t something that came up, so, no, I wasn’t really”.
1485 “Or they discussed with you?”
1485 “They didn’t discuss how they left their children, for example, within the flat or within the apartment and whether there was any change?”
1485 “Was it Kate and Gerry’s system that changed through the week or was it everybody’s in general?”
Reply “Erm, no, I think, as far as I’m aware, Russ and Jane and Matt and Rachael still went the long way round”.
Reply “And I think it was only because Kate and Gerry’s apartment had that little side gate”.
Reply “That, you know, it made it so easy for them to go in that way, whereas, for everyone else, there wasn’t really that option of nipping in a back gate”.
Reply “Erm, actually the only way you could get in, erm, well the easiest way of getting in was the long way, was going round to the front so”.
1485 “Yeah. Wasn’t somebody else downstairs though?”
Reply “They were all downstairs but there wasn’t access to, direct access to the back gardens”.
Reply “Because there’s, there’s a long wall and at each end of that whole row of apartments you can get in the ground floor apartment through a gate, so Gerry’s and whoever would have been at the far end, but the ones in between, there was no, no direct, erm, access”.
1485 “What about Matthew and Rachael, did they discuss with you at all their securing or unsecuring arrangements, whichever the case may be?”
1485 “There was never any discussion?”
Reply “I mean, I guess, I mean, as I said at the beginning, you just assume everyone’s locked their apartments and gone. And, as I say, I assume Kate and Gerry had even done that, it was only that night I realised that they hadn’t or I’d even thought about the fact they were going in the French doors and you couldn’t lock it from the outside, but I was aware their system changed and I was aware erm, on that night that their apartment was unlocked”.
1485 “Yeah. In the days prior to Madeleine disappearing, did you ever check on your kids and, if so, how often?”
Reply “In the evening, once we’d left the room, we didn’t go back until it was time to go back, on any of the nights. We didn’t hear any crying, we didn’t hear any noises to, to raise any suspicion to go back and check. So, no, we didn’t”
1485 “And why was that?”
Reply “Because we didn’t have any reason to, we felt the kids were fast asleep and, and happy. And I’d just like to say, our monitor, if it loses any contact with the base unit at all, it, it alarms, so, you know, we knew we were in continuous contact with the children”.
Reply “And had there been any noise we would have gone to check, but that didn’t happen”.
1485 “From what we have discussed so far, is there anything that you think that we haven’t discussed or I haven’t asked you, which you could be quite pertinent to, you know, what we have been talking about, does that make sense?”
Reply “Yeah. Erm, no, I mean, things will probably come up later and I’ll probably drag you back. But, erm, it’s just, it’s hard putting it altogether and there’s so many things that, since May, have come into my head as important, but at the moment I don’t think I can think of anything that, you know, in particular”.
1485 “I mean, I know that, I know that you have, so many things have been duplicated, haven’t they, since you have been interviewed, you have been interviewed over in Portugal and then you have been interviewed over here. And what I don’t want you to think is, well I’ve already answered that so I won’t”.
Reply “I don’t think we have answered many questions to be honest, you know, before”.
1485 “Coming here, yeah”.
1485 “And, as well, don’t assume that we know everything, if there is something that you are thinking, oh I assume that they know that so I’m not going to say, if there is something that you think perhaps, you know, ought to be highlighted, that we haven’t brought up, you know, just bring it up at any time, alright?”
Reply “Umm, I mean, the bit with Dave checking the children, I would like to highlight that, in the fact, the reason he mentioned it is because they were so, it was a picture of an idyllic family. And I think that is important because of all the Press and, you know, what they’ve been accused of”.
Reply “You know, I think the picture Dave described could not be further from what has been suggested happened to Madeleine”.
Reply “And that is important I think to put in and that is why he thought it was worth a mention to me”.
1485 “Yeah. Tell me about that picture that he said then?”
Reply “Well he just said it was just, you know, a really lovely picture. He popped in and the, you know, the reason I guess Gerry had asked him just to check Kate was okay, bathing three kids on her own and didn’t want him to come back, and he just found it funny because it couldn’t be further from, erm, the truth, you know, what Gerry had suggested, you know, that she might be needing help, she’d sort of done it all and they were all shining, gleaming, happy children, you know, sitting down, lovely, all ready for bed. And I think that, you know, that was why he mentioned it, because it was a lovely thing”.
1485 “Yeah. Okay. Now I am going to move on to questions that Gerry and Kate have asked to be asked, okay?”
1485 “And question number one is, how long have you known Gerald and Kate HEALY and what kind of a relationship is there between you and the McCANNs?”
Reply “Erm, I first met Kate, erm, at work, erm, we both, she was an Anaesthetic Registrar at Leicester General and I just started work there, it was towards, I think it was December two thousand, erm, and we’d often be on-call together, her covering the Intensive Care Unit and me covering Theatre, so we’d often, erm, you know, be there sort of late in the evening in the coffee room just sort of chatting, that’s how we sort of first got to know each other and very quickly became good friends, we’ve got a lot in common. And I met Gerry, I think the first time actually at work, when I was on-call at Glenfield, where he works, again in the coffee room, huh, not suggesting we sit and drink coffee all the time, but, erm, I first met him there. And then, subsequently, you know, I think they stayed over at our house for, for a night out, a sort of medical night out, and, erm, they met Dave, that was the first time they met Dave, and it’s just gone on from there really. So we’ve, we’ve always got on really well, I think, erm, all got a lot in common, Gerry and Dave into their sports as were me and Kate, they’re very laid back, very easy going people and, you know, really good company. Erm, we’ve been on holiday numerous times with them. Before we had children we went to Lanzarote for a week to one of these sports, erm, sports centres, erm, that was when she was pregnant with Madeleine. Erm, and, yeah, we’ve met up regularly. Erm, you know, we’ve had a really, as I say, a very, very strong friendship with them”.
1485 “What about your wedding, was it your wedding in Italy?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah”.
1485 “They came to your wedding?”
Reply “Yeah, they did, Madeleine was only three months old”.
1485 “What year was that?”
Reply “Two thousand and three, erm, September”.
1485 “How was that holiday?”
Reply “Fantastic. They’d gone out a bit before, erm, we got married at this sort of Castle and it had accommodation attached and they’d booked a whole sort of week there, so they were there for a few days before, running up. And they were great, you know. Madeleine had not been an easy baby by any stretch, but, I mean, Kate relished every minute of it, despite the fact Madeleine was a baby who would not be put down, you know, without yelling. And, you know, you’d often go and visit her in the afternoon and she’d be there jigging in front of MTV with Madeleine, which she’d been doing all day, you know, still with a smile on her face and, erm, that, that was Kate, you know. Erm, but I think they saw our wedding in Italy as a bit of a turnaround, because Madeleine, they had a good week, Madeleine sort of started sleeping and things”.
Reply “And, erm, they were just very relaxed, very, you know, very happy to be there”.
1485 “And how did you find Gerry on that holiday?”
Reply “The same as every really, yeah, the same as ever. Again, they just chilled out and enjoyed being there”.
1485 “Because you have painted the picture, haven’t you, of Kate being quite”.
Reply “Umm, I guess because Kate’s my main, my main friend”.
Reply “But Gerry is so, I mean, his personality is just positive, positive, positive, I’ve never seem him, you know, bar May the third, almost down about anything and even then he’s remarkable in my, you know, in my eyes, because he is so positive. Erm, you know, he’s got a lot of energy and he’s very much hands-on and always has been with all the children and he’s just, you know, he’s a fun dad, as soon as he’s in the door, he’s up for doing it all, you know, he’d be up in the night and changing their nappies, he’s very hands-on and very brilliant with Madeleine and the twins, he was a father. You know, they’ve always been an incredible team. I mean, you imagine, I know other people that have had twins, you know, but to imagine they had a small toddler and twins, you know, I can imagine myself being completely phased by that, but, again, you never saw them complaining about lack of sleep or anything, they were always positive, out there doing stuff and just getting on with it and enjoying it and they’ve never given any other impression otherwise between them, ever”.
1485 “Yeah. Did you ever visit their home in Rothley?”
Reply “Yeah, lots”.
1485 “When you say ‘lots’ so are we into double figures over the years?”
Reply “We visited the day, yeah, yeah, we visited the day they moved in and bought them pizza (laughs). Erm, yeah, and been over, I mean, Kate and I often meet up during the week, on my days off and her days off, you know, with the kids, sometimes without the men. Erm, but, yeah, we’ve been over socially as well with partners and kids and weekends and birthday parties and, yeah, spent a lot of time there”.
1485 “And it has always been a nice social event?”
1485 “No issues?”
Reply “No, I mean, before, when they lived in Queniborough, you know, the same there really. No, I mean, I can honestly, I’ll say this as well, the week, erm, tut, before we went to Portugal, I had a day, Kate and I organised a day just shopping in Nottingham without the kids, as a bit of a treat for us, and, erm, it was Kate’s birthday and we sat and had lunch and she said ‘If it didn’t sound so sort of, you know, smug, I would say I could not be happier, you know, as a family’, she’s got everything she ever wanted, she’s happy in her marriage, happy with the kids and that was the, you know, the month before we went, so, and that was them”.
Reply “I mean, they were just happy. They were just genuinely happy. And we never saw them any other way”.
1485 “And the kids were always happy?”
Reply “I mean, they all have, they all have their tantrums and stuff, yeah, erm, you know, I wouldn’t say they were perfect kids or anything”.
1485 “I mean, put aside”.
Reply “But they just had a really good way of dealing with them. I mean, Madeleine, you know, any, any toddler is going to have their moments of tantrums, but they always dealt with her very well and, you know, they, they, probably a lot better than me, I mean, I shout at my children, I never heard them even shout at Madeleine, they were always very calm with the way they handled her and, erm, you know, just very calm parents, they never seemed to be run ragged or, you know, which, as I say, with three young kids you would imagine most people would, but they, they weren’t”.
1485 “I mean, put aside your friendship, you know, take off your friendship head for a minute. When you have been round or been in the company of them with their children, is there anything at all that you might think, oh I wouldn’t have done that or?”
Reply “They were perhaps easier on their kids than I’d be, but that was all I’d say. No, there was, you know, absolutely nothing, no. They were a good team”.
1485 “And you say that it is dozens of times over the years?”
1485 “Had you spent holidays with them at any other time, we have already discussed this, haven’t we, you didn’t?”
Reply “We said one before kids and then we went to Majorca, erm, that was two thousand and five, September two thousand and five, for two weeks, with Kate, Gerry, their three children and then there were two other families, erm, who weren’t on this holiday, I don’t know whether you want their names, but, erm, we had a big villa and, you know, four families for two weeks and, again, had a, had a fantastic two weeks”.
1485 “What resort was it?”
Reply “It wasn’t a resort, it was sort of a bit out on a limb actually”.
1485 “In the middle of nowhere?”
Reply “Yeah, a bit in the middle of nowhere and don’t ask me what the name of the place was, I’m terrible with names and places, but Dave might well remember. Erm, you know, it was about, I think an hour North of Palma somewhere, but, you now. Again, all I can say, I can’t say it enough, they were just very, very laid back people who are very easy to get on with and, you know, good company”.
1485 “Yeah. You know when you were away with them the previous times?”
Reply “Uh hu”.
1485 “How were they, how did they look after the children, well that is totally the wrong way of saying that, how were they in relation to the children?”
Reply “Well, again, I mean, I look back to Majorca and the twins were, what, only six months old and Madeleine, what, two, and still they, they were a slick machine, you know, a well oiled machine, the way they did everything routine, they were very much like I am with, and Dave, with our kids, very much operate by routine and, you know, bedtime routines and lunchtime routines, but they worked very hard and worked very hard together, erm, and made it look very easy and that’s how it always came across with them, it never, it never seemed arduous or hard”.
Reply “Erm, and they, and they never moaned about it, so it just seemed that way, you know, they were just, just very easy”.
1485 “What about the night-time arrangements on previous holidays?”
Reply “On previous holidays?”
Reply “Erm, I think, again, Madeleine, on that holiday, Madeleine was in with Sean and Amelie, erm, but they were in bedrooms next door, it was just a big villa so we were, we all had enough bedrooms to have the children in one room, adults in the one next door. Erm, but in terms of the evenings, we all just took it in turns to cook for everybody and then we’d sit either at the dining room table or on the patio and have our evening meal and go to bed”.
Reply “We had a hideous time with our eldest that holiday, because she didn’t sleep a wink for about two weeks, every night, so we were generally pacing around, erm, on the outside of the villa”.
Reply “At silly hours of the morning”.
1485 “And was their children”.
Reply “Very good”.
1485 “To sleep on time?”
Reply “Absolutely, they were like model children”.
1485 “Sleeping through?”
Reply “Sleeping through, much to our distaste, because ours weren’t. But, yeah, I mean, they, they’d always had a really good routine and Sean and Amelie at that point were incredibly, erm, you know, I think they were sleeping through actually and I think even were sleeping past when everyone else’s kids were getting up, they were sort of model babies”.
1485 “Yeah. How often would you meet them both, going back now to Portugal, how often would you meet them or see them between the twenty-eight and the third, that is the day that you arrived to the day that Madeleine?”
Reply “Twenty-eighth of the third. We’d see them every day, erm, as I say, if we hadn’t seen them through the day we’d always see them at night. But, in passing, I mean, I probably saw them every day sort of at some point, erm, but often not for more than a sort of quick chat sort of as we were on our way somewhere. Erm, but, yeah, I mean, every day, leading up to May the third, at high tea, as I say, they always went to high tea as did we, so, erm, that was always, the beginning of our sort of social time, if you like, altogether, was the kids high tea”.
1485 “Because you all had different, because you were saying earlier on, you all had different activities?”
Reply “During the day, yeah”.
1485 “What was their primary activity throughout the day?”
Reply “Yeah, tennis. They’d both booked lessons, erm, I think some of them together, some individually, but they had a lot of tennis lessons”.
1485 “And where was Madeleine and the twins while that was taking place?”
Reply “They were in their kids clubs, the twins were in the toddler club and Madeleine at the older one over near the reception, erm, and I’m pretty sure they went in every morning and every afternoon, there might have been, I don’t know any different, but I think certainly most days they went in the afternoon as well”.
1485 “Yeah. And other than the men’s Thursday tennis, would there be a time where perhaps one was doing an activity and the other one would be at the apartment?”
Reply “Between Kate and Gerry?”
Reply “Yeah, I’m sure there would have been because, as I say, I’m sure they had separate lessons as well as ones together, so they wouldn’t be always at the same time. And I have a feeling, I mean, erm, the reason they were sort of going to kids clubs was because the twins weren’t really sleeping in the afternoon, but I do think they tried, erm, to put them down a couple of times to see if they would sleep and they didn’t, so then went and did something else and put them in the club, but, erm, yeah, I think they did try to get them to sleep. And, to be fair, Madeleine and Ella I think were asking to go back half the time because they, they were just having a ball there”.
1485 “How often during the holiday did you see Madeleine and the twins?”
Reply “Erm, as I say, I would have seen them every high tea, I mean, the Thursday, that was a different day, in that, I’d only seen Madeleine when, as I say, when I walked with Kate, erm, and we picked Madeleine and Scarlet up. But, yeah, bar that, we saw the children ever, every evening for high tea and afterwards for the sort of playtime. Erm, but during the day I tended not to see, not to see them”.
1485 “Right. And you say that you wouldn’t have seen them at breakfast because they didn’t?”
Reply “They didn’t do breakfast at the Millennium, so as I say really we, we wouldn’t sort of on the whole catch up with Kate and Gerry, other than in, if we happen to sort of cross paths”.
1485 “Oh yes”.
Reply “Briefly until our kids high tea”.
1485 “Yes. Have you ever felt a reason to become concerned about their, about the children?”
1485 “Never. That’s when I asked you earlier on to take your friends head off”.
Reply “(Inaudible), I’ve never, I mean I, would she be such a good friend if I had doubts about her as a parent, or as a human being but she wouldn’t. She’s a dear friend because, cos of the person she is and the parent she is, I mean and Gerry, I mean I’m making them sound like saints but they’re, I’ve never had any, any doubt at all about how they are with the children, how they deal with them, I know they love them to death”.
1485 “And again, this is a repeat but when did you, when was the last time you saw Madeleine?”
Reply “It was, it would be when we walked back with, erm, Scarlet and Kate from the, from picking them at the kids club in the af, in the lunch time, that was the last time I saw them”.
1485 “At lunch time?”
1485 “Did you not see them the, the knock up time between quarter to, half six and quarter to seven, did you not see her then?”
Reply “Lock up time?”
1485 “Knock up time when, you know, when you, after you’d left the beach?”
Reply “No, no when we left the beach, by the time we got back to the tennis courts, Kate had already gone back to start bathing the kids and put them to bed so I didn’t, I didn’t see them”.
1485 “Right got you, wasn’t trying to catch you out then, I just missed something with (inaudible)”.
Reply “No, no, lunch time was the last time I saw her”.
1485 “When did you see Kate and Gerald on Thursday, so when was the first time that you saw Kate and Gerry on the Thursday?”
Reply “It would have been sort of late morning when we’d got back from our sailing and we got changed, got some warm things on and we were just sat on the sun loungers by the pool, erm, just having a drink and Kate and Gerry appeared, we offered them a drink, I think they turned down, they either, they’d just had a tennis lesson or had a knock, erm. In fact I think, was it Gerry had had a lesson then and was going into length degree to Kate about his style of tennis and I was joking that Kate was actually listening to this and finding it incredibly boring cos it’s the sort of thing, you know, they, as a couple, they did have amazing sort of patience with each other than (inaudible), I wouldn’t have that with David talking to me (inaudible), so there was that joke, so yeah I think it was Gerry just had a tennis lesson and Kate might have been having a knock up, but they were in their tennis gear”.
1485 “You say they turned up at your apartment?”
Reply “No, no this was down by the, this was down on the sun loungers outside the, where the pool”.
1485 “Oh right, you were downstairs”.
Reply “And it was just about time to go and pick up the kids, so we sort of sat about ten minutes and then, so Kate and I wandered off down to the, erm, Reception to get the kids, erm, Scarlet, Madeleine and Gerry and Dave went and got, went to the toddler club to get the twins and Lily”.
1485 “Anything different about them at all?”
Reply “Nothing, again, you know, just having a good time, relaxed”.
1485 “Nothing different. Think I’ve asked you this as well, when you arrived at the Tapas on the third of May”.
1485 “Who was already there?”
Reply “Everybody, bar Matt, erm, so, erm, yeah, going round the table”.
1485 “Yes so”.
Reply “Yeah so, erm, Kate, Gerry, erm, Rachael and then Jane and Russell”.
1485 “Is everybody sitting down?”
1485 “What were Kate and Gerry doing when you arrived?”
Reply “Just sat at the table and having a drink, conversing with whoever was there”.
1485 “So were they talking to each other, or were they talking to somebody separate?”
Reply “Would be talking to somebody separate, I mean they weren’t sort of sat together, they were sort of, they were all spread out”.
Reply “Erm, but, yeah, they were just, you know, as every evening, everyone’s just chatting and, you know, sometimes you’d be in pairs, someone’s chatting to the groups, you know, as you do, nothing different about that night to, to any other”.
1485 “Did they have a drink on the table?”
Reply “I think by the time we arrived, there was wine on the table, cos that’s generally what the waiters brought as soon as you arrived anyway, cos you, with your meal got a bottle of wine per couple or something like that free with your meal, so that was (inaudible) on, so I think yeah that was already there but there was no food”.
1485 “So it was wine they were drinking and not any cocktails or anything like that?”
Reply “No I can’t remember anything else amiss, certainly no cocktails, erm, some, some people drank beer or asked for a beer on certain nights but I couldn’t tell you whether that night whether anyone had beer or who had wine but I say the wine generally had, we’d had a glass of wine, erm, with the meal every evening so would have been there”.
1485 “Could you hear any of their conversation?”
Reply “What, Kate and Gerry?”
Reply “Well I don’t know whether they were particularly conversing together, so did I hear their conversation with other people, nothing sticks in my mind, everyone was very excited about the day they had, there was a lot of conversation about what everyone had been doing, you know, Dave and I had had a fan, fantastic sail in the morning, talking about that and, and so there was all the antics in the afternoon with Matt and Russell’s sort of jokes about that sort of earlier”.
1485 “So Matt falling in?”
Reply “Yeah I don’t know”.
1485 “Capsizing or something?”
Reply “What happened but yeah they were, they were out sailing and I think Matt fell out the boat or something and Russell’s a less experienced sailor, so he had to try and rescue Matt, so, erm, anyway, you know, that, that was the, you can imagine the sort of macho stories of Russell telling Matt, rescuing Matt”.
Reply “So there’s the, you know, a lot of, there’s a lot of banter, a lot of funny stories and, and then, you know, Gerry talking about his tennis and everybody had, I say had had the best day out of the whole week that day, up until that point”.
1485 “Yes. Did you talk to Gerry?”
Reply “Yeah we all, we all talking together, I couldn’t, I couldn’t tell you specifically about what but he, I’m pretty sure he was sat, you know, one side, me and Kate on the other and yeah we all, we all chatted, I can’t remember specifically what we’d have talked to Gerry about that night though”.
1485 “Cos that’s the time that Kate mentioned about Madeleine wasn’t it?”
1485 “So could you not remember anything that Gerry had said?”
Reply “Gerry didn’t really join, when he was talking to someone else and this was conversation just between, erm, me and Kate, although I know Jane and Rachael joined in a bit, they were sitting sort of the other side of Kate, so it was sort of a conversation amongst the girls really”.
1485 “Yes, and how were they behaving?”
Reply “Relax, happy, you know, very relax, behaving completely normally”.
1485 “Who left the table during the meal and why?”
Reply “Erm, it was go over, erm, so Gerry left the table (inaudible) enough to us getting there, erm, Matt was already gone when we got there, he obviously came back, I can’t remember whether that was before or after, erm, Gerry, but I think Matt was back before Gerry leaving, erm, he went to check on the children, erm, as far as I’m aware, came back and said, ‘Everything’s quiet’, did mention that he’d, erm, spoken to Jez and seen him on the way back, I think he mentioned that to Kate, erm, cos I think they talked a bit about their tennis, erm, I was aware of Jane leaving the table again to go and check on, on er Ella and Evie, erm, and was aware of her coming back, I say I couldn’t tell you again how long she took, no one ever took very long, even in my eyes, it was the only sort of longer stay was Russell when he went, erm, later on and with Matt and then came back and said Matt had said to (inaudible) was staying with Evie, so he, but even then he was only away I’d say for sort of ten, fifteen minutes before Jane went to take over”.
Reply “Which as I say, she rushed and ate her dinner, so he was probably away for the longest I’d say out of anybody but that still was only ten, fifteen minutes, erm, and that’s it, Rachael didn’t leave the table, mum didn’t leave the table, I didn’t, Dave didn’t, it was really just, erm, Kate, Gerry, er Matt and Jane and Russell so”.
1485 “You know, when, erm, Jane came back after the first visit?”
1485 “How was she when she came back, because that’s the time that, you know, shooting forward, I suppose she saw this?”
1485 “How did she, any different?”
Reply “Absolutely fine, I mean there was nothing remarkable about, nothing that she said when she came back, nothing different, erm, certainly not what I picked up on, she seemed to sit down and be fine”.
1485 “Right. So did you see Gerald leave the table during the meal, I think we’ve already covered that one, what time, we’ve covered that?”
1485 “How long was he absent, we’ve covered that”.
1485 “How long do you think, I don’t think we’ve covered how long he was away for?”
Reply “Again, I, I couldn’t tell you exactly but no one, the only one sticks in my mind was being longer was Russell, so I don’t, don’t think Gerry was away for that long, I’d say five, five minutes”.
1485 “And did he say anything when he came back?”
Reply “Yeah, I mean he did, I do remember him coming back and Gerry’s quite, erm, quite a loud person, much like Russell, erm, you know, and just announcing all, all is quiet or something like that and then say about Jez but”.
1485 “And was he behaving and acting any, any differently afterwards?”
1485 “And he’s, did you see Jane leave the table, yes you saw her. Sort of what time do you think Jane left the table?”
1485 “I know that you said about your watch, but what sort of time?”
Reply “Yeah, I, I’m guessing it was around nine o’clock, it was about, you know, it must have been pretty soon after Gerry left and I think for them, their check was, it would have been around nine o’clock, so it must have been around then”.
1485 “And I’ve asked you was she, did she behave any differently when she came back?”
1485 “And you’re saying Matthew, he left at, he, he’d already, he’d left the table before you got there hadn’t he?”
1485 “And but he left again didn’t he with Russell you said?”
1485 “And then he came back is that right?”
Reply “He came back”.
1485 “About what time did he come back?”
Reply “Erm, it must be around half nine sort of time, he wasn’t away for long”.
1485 “How long do you think he was absent for?”
Reply “I’d say no more, what two, three minutes, I mean about as long as it took to walk there and back again”.
1485 “Did he say anything about listening at any windows, or listening at any doors, do you, do you pick up on any conversation like that?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah, I mean again I think he had said, he, he had checked on, erm, outside the windows of, erm, of his apartment, then I think he’d popped into Russell’s apartment, he did say, you know, said that Evie had been ill, erm, and I was aware that he had checked on er, Madeleine and the twins and that was maybe what was different that night as well that hadn’t really been done before, of him going in the apartment, I don’t know which order he did it in”.
Reply “But I know when he came back and he reported they’re all sound asleep and quiet”.
1485 “So you say you were aware that he checked on Madeleine?”
1485 “What sort of conversation, or what context of the conversation was that?”
Reply “I think Matt had offered cos he was going, as Matt and Russell going up together, erm, rather than be asked to do it, I think he’d offered, erm, and, you know, that, you know, they’d said, ‘Oh the French doors open you can pop in there’.”
1485 “Sorry, who said that, who said?”
Reply “Whether it was Gerry or Kate, I couldn’t, couldn’t tell you, erm, saying I’m aware he did that for them and aware he came back and said all was quiet and there was no, no, no problems, erm, no nothing seemed significant, really different or”.
1485 “And when he came back, was he acting any differently?”
Reply “Not at all”.
1485 “Same questions regarding Russell”.
Reply “What, what, when he came back?”
1485 “Yes, did he go just the once and then, then stayed?”
Reply “He went yeah, I think that was the first time he went was (inaudible) with Matt, erm, I don’t remember him going before that, as Jane did the check before that, erm, did he act any differently, no, again he obviously came back saying, you know, Evie had been sick or whatever and was, erm, just saying what it all was and he’d been wrestling with dirty sheets and all that sort of stuff, but no he was, again sort of very relaxed and the same as he went”.
1485 “And when Kate went to do the checking”.
1485 “How many times did Kate go and do the checking?”
Reply “To my knowledge, just the once”.
1485 “Just the once?”
1485 “And that was the time that she came back and”.
1485 “So round about what time was that?”
Reply “Five to ten, I mean I know it’s ten o’clock when she came back, so a few minutes before that”.
1485 “So how long, how long was she absent for?”
Reply “Five minutes, less”.
1485 “And what did she say when she came back?”
Reply “ ‘She’s gone Gerry, Madeleine’s gone’, I’m hundred per cent about that”.
1485 “And we’ve discussed how she looked, she looked shocked and”.
Reply “She was just frantic”.
1485 “Frantic. Were you shocked by her words?”
Reply “Absolutely, I mean I didn’t, it was so sort of out of context of the evening and the holiday, initially it was, it, I mean it was just pure, you know, the words sinking in, the shock, the horror of what, what that might mean and I know those are her first words, I know there’s been a lot of reported since about people saying, you know, they’ve taken her and she did say those things but they were, you know, later as far as I’m aware, I didn’t hear anything suggesting anyone had taken her at that point and initially, you know, the, the hope and the automatic response was really that, that she had wandered away, erm, you know, I, pretty soon after, I was hearing the words, you know, they’ve taken her and that the window was open, the shutter was open, erm, and all that that implied, but those weren’t her first words and her first implication wasn’t that”.
1485 “What did you do once she’d come back and raised the alarm?”
Reply “We, I say we all jumped up, Gerry was first, he just sprinted off with Kate and they, they were ahead of everybody else, erm, cos I had the monitor and mum and I just thought somebody ought to stay behind, I was probably latter in the, in the line, cos I just said to mum, ‘Stay put and see if she comes back, keep the monitor’ and then you know, me, erm, Jane wasn’t there obviously, it was me, Rachael, er Matt, Russell and Dave that sort of, erm, got to the part outside the apartment and that’s when we, we just said, ‘Right, let’s do a quick search, like you go that way, you go that way’.”
Reply “Because you see within seconds it was, you know, everybody split up and did a quick, quick search in a different direction”.
1485 “I think my next series of questions I’ve asked you in relation to you going into the McCANN’s apartment, you went in with Kate, what you said earlier on”.
1485 “And you described what you saw, you’ve described the children sleeping, they slept and everything, so are the twins, nothing unusual, but one thing I want, need to ask you is, erm, how long after the alarm was raised, did you end up in the McCANN’s apartment?”
Reply “After that initial search, it was as long as it took me to walk round, erm you know to the left of the apartments, round the back of the tennis court and the, so you know, five minutes”.
1485 “Five minutes”.
Reply “It wasn’t long (inaudible)”.
1485 “So from the time that you’d gone racing off after Kate and Gerry”.
1485 “You ended up in the apartment, five minutes later you think?”
Reply “Yeah, five, ten minutes it was certainly within ten minutes it wouldn’t have taken me long to (inaudible)”.
1485 “What did you do next, you took part in sort of, well you took part in the search, searches?”
1485 “Who were you with when you were searching?”
1485 “Did Kate walk that perimeter?”
Reply “Oh what, sorry the search outside the apartment?”
Reply “No I was on my own, we were all, we were all on our own at that point, I don’t think anybody doubled up, erm I say we, the main people just went, I think Rachael might have gone in to check on, she went straight in I think to check Grace and stayed with Grace and it was just the other men and me and my mum had the monitor but yeah we all went on our own for that initial check”.
1485 “Yes. Did your mum join you then at some point, or did she?”
Reply “Mum came up once I was in the apartment with Kate, er my mum came up to like, ‘What shall I do, I’ve waited’ and at that point I said, ‘Just wait with Scarlet up in the apartment’.”
1485 “Okay and realising that Madeleine had not been found in the first ten minutes, how did Kate react?”
Reply “Oh as I said earlier, she was hysterical, it upsets me very much to even think about how she was, cos it was erm, she was so terrified, absolutely inconsolable, she was rampaging round the, the room, she’s up and down, pacing, kicking walls, just on, for most part, just imagining where or what might be happening to Madeleine and angry at herself and then for having left her, not being there and just, she was shouting a lot, I can’t, ‘We’ve, we’ve let her down Gerry, we’ve let her down, we weren’t there for her’ erm you know the pain that was causing her that she hadn’t been there, was just very raw, erm anger at the, the whole, I say the system that nobody was seemed to be arriving and you know, what was being done and the feeling of just nothing, nothing being done, the helplessness and that, that raw, raw emotion of just grief, of just terror and just praying, she was praying, she kept kneeling everywhere just praying and praying and praying and asking for a Priest and just wanted you know, everybody to be praying for Madeleine for her to be safe”.
1485 “What about Gerry?”
Reply “Gerry initially, they were both just hysterical, I mean the shock I’d say you know more on Gerry’s side, he was just stunned like she’s got to be here, she’s got to be here, this can’t have happened, very, very much sort of almost denial, erm but then when he saw the room and sunk in what Kate had seen, he was convinced she’d been taken and at that point he was, you know was sobbing, him and Kate were just sobbing, clinging to each other and you know what shall we do, what shall we do, you know, Gerry kicked in to his sort of you know, action mode, which er he was ringing people, who do we need to ring, the British Embassy, I think he was trying to get hold of the British Embassy and just get somebody erm who was English speaking, who might be able to help, erm say early, I know he phoned his sister, he was phoning relatives, just telling anybody you know, you’ve got to help us, what can you do, can you think of anything, erm he was flitting in and out, I was aware, so I stayed in the apartment but I know Gerry was in and out, speaking to the Police when they arrived, erm you know they were, Gerry, his way of coping is to do, to, to feel like he’s doing something in a positive way and that’s definitely how he got through the night. I don’t know how he did the things he did, even made the calls he made”.
Reply “But that, that’s his way”.
1485 “Where were you sat whilst all this was taking, I know you were sat in the, the apartment, where were you sat, in the bedroom or in the?”
Reply “We were all over the place, we were in and out of the bedroom, in and out of the twins bedroom, in the living room, on the balcony, I was following Kate, Kate was all over the place, erm spent a fair bit of time just in her bedroom and Gerry’s bedroom, erm but she, you know she was just pacing away all over the place”.
1485 “Well again, you’ve answered this question, in your opinion, well what is your opinion about their behaviour once, Ma, once you know it dawned that Madeleine was missing. What’s your opinion on the way they were, they were acting or the way that they were?”
Reply “Well how can anyone ever put themselves in their situation, you know how, what’s the right way to go, but the, the transition from utter relaxed, happiness to, I mean the worst thing that could ever, ever, ever possibly happen to them (inaudible), that’s very, it was just evident, looking at Kate’s face, the pain and, and Gerry’s as well, the pain and the anguish that has been left since the third of May and continue to be there, I mean erm yeah, I mean is it normal to react the way they did, I couldn’t tell you what’s normal but they were just distraught and genuinely so”.
1485 “Can you just tell me your movements, I know you’ve skated over them, well in fact you’ve gone into great detail on the last interview, but can you just tell me what, what your movements were from say ten thirty, so assuming now that Mad, you know the, the alarm has been raised half an hour, so what did you do from ten thirty pm ‘til ten am the following day?”
Reply “Erm for the most part on the night, as I said, I was just milling in the apartment and out on the balcony and just outside their front door, erm with, with Kate, erm I was there in the apartment when the first lot of Policemen arrived, which I think was around sort of between eleven, quarter past eleven. Er I was there when they did their initial search and we just followed them really, erm and I, I didn’t really move, I mean I can’t, can’t really say much more than that”.
Reply “I stayed in the apartment, erm I was aware later that the GNR were there as I say they were wandering round the front and the back and, and the time when I came out and met Robert MURAT, erm I’m assuming that was sort of after sort of midnight, there and that sort of time because the uniformed Police were there, erm the sort of troops in their boots, I don’t, think they’re GNR, erm and then you know, I, I was just in, in the apartment for, for the most part just with Kate, erm I eventually moved up back to my apartment when it was suggested by the PJ that you know, they had to get the twins out, so I went to that part to organise our flats and you know, the, the nannies in with the travel cots and the bedding, I helped them set that all up, so at that point I was separate to Kate and Gerry. Erm and then I was just in, in our apartment, I’d say for, I’d say half three, four o’clock when they brought the twins up, erm I sat on the sofa with Kate next to me and say we had the twins asleep on us, a good half an hour with Kate, just in complete shock, sobbing. Erm, then we put the twins to bed in the, in the cots, I say we made Kate and Gerry a mattress up on the floor and we chatted some more and by about half four, we’d all decided to just try and lay down, at least just to, to get a rest if not sleep. Erm, Dave and I went into our room with Scarlet and sort of left Kate and Gerry in the living room with the twins really. I think Dave and I must have actually eventually dozed off for a bit, cos we got woken up by Kate knocking on the door and just you know, as I said earlier, suggesting they, they couldn’t sleep, they couldn’t, they couldn’t rest and they were just, it was driving them up the wall, just sitting there and not doing anything and they wanted to go out and look and would we just keep an eye on the twins”.
1485 “Can you remember what sort of time that was roughly?”
Reply “Erm it was still very cold and, and dark, erm I think it was you know, between five and six, I say, I say, I think we’d, we’d, we’d just dozed off, so erm it was still very early. Er the next morning to be honest is a bit of a blur, I think with the kids we, we, our role really was just to try and keep some normality for the twins who were obviously er wondering what on earth was going on, erm then giving the kids breakfast and getting them dressed and sorted, getting to kids club and we just decided they should all do, you know have the day that they would normally have, so that was my role the following morning really, erm I’m trying to remember what, what I, well you’re not asking after ten o’clock are you, but certainly that was my morning, just getting them ready and erm dropping them off at the crèche”.
1485 “So did it culminate up to you taking them to the crèche then?”
Reply “Umm, I held onto Scarlet that day”.
1485 “What sort of”.
Reply “And just (inaudible). Erm it would have been, I don’t know when it opened actually, I can’t remember whether it was nine or half nine but it would have been around that time”.
1485 “So during that morning, who did you talk to?”
Reply “Just the group really and obviously Kate and Gerry and my mum and Dave, erm we saw, we see Matt and Rachael and, and Jane and Russell the next morning, I hadn’t seen much of them on the night after Madeleine had gone, erm so yeah we were all sort of hearing what each other had been up to I suppose overnight but yeah that’s the first time I’d really spoken to them in detail”.
1485 “What sort of time was it that you spoke to Mr MURAT?”
Reply “On the night, I say, I, I, I think it would have been around midnight”.
1485 “Around midnight. When did you leave Portugal?”
Reply “Erm I can’t remember the date, I’ve got a diary with me (inaudible), do you want me to look?”
1485 “Yes if you want to, yes”.
Reply “We stayed, Dave and I stayed on a bit longer that the others, twenty second of May”.
1485 “Twenty second of May?”
1485 “Cos the others, the others left on the seventeenth didn’t they?”
Reply “They left yeah the week before and my mum left the week before, it was just Dave and I and the kids that stayed on, I’m the closest to Kate I suppose and we just didn’t feel it was right to leave all at once”.
1485 “So where did you stay then?”
1485 “You stayed in the same apartments?”
1485 “They, they kept them on for you then did they?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah”.
1485 “How many times whilst you were there did you meet Kate and Gerry?”
Reply “In the weeks following, the days following?”
Reply “We saw them every day, erm tended to be er in the, certainly in the early days, at night time, they were just incredibly busy Kate and Gerry with all the Press that they were doing and the interviews and Police interviews, erm but every, every night generally I’d text Kate to say I’m coming over and my mum would look after our kids and Dave and I would go over to their apartment, just to see where, where they were at and what had happened and say erm so yeah, I’d say every day, don’t think there was a day I didn’t see them”.
1485 “Where were they staying in relation to where you were staying, cos obviously they weren’t in the?”
Reply “They got, they got moved to the apartment block that was sort of down from us, erm”.
1485 “Still at, still at the Ocean Club?”
Reply “Yeah at the Ocean Club, it was, they were on a first floor apartment”.
Reply “So it wasn’t, it’s only three, three minutes away, (inaudible), down the car park really”.
Reply “It’s just down the car park really, it was sort of”.
1485 “Yes okay and again you’ve answered this question a dozen times but again what’s normal, but do you think that they were showing normal behaviour for, for parents who had lost a child?”
Reply “Absolutely, absolutely, it’s the desperation that I cannot describe to you, erm but was so upsetting and they were just desperate, absolutely desperate, erm you know, I think Kate, you know she was sort of (inaudible) really going through the, how I’d expect somebody to react really, she, she would go from being incredibly angry and physically, as I say you know, days after she, she had bouts of just, just wanting to inflict pain on herself really it seemed like, erm and just being angry and frustrated that why is, why haven’t they got her, why haven’t anyone found her, erm just her being totally devastated that she wasn’t there, erm, erm very withdrawn and just, say sitting there sobbing, not, and you just couldn’t reach her in those items and then almost the numb bits in between it, it was just cycled between those three phases really with, certainly with Kate. I say Gerry again was, he just grieved in a very different fashion, I mean for him he could see it all, all there and it obviously upset me, saw them crying, saw them get emotionally upset as well but on the most part after that first period of shock and, and just sobbing and not knowing what to do, he did think right this isn’t going to get Madeleine back, this isn’t gonna help, you know these are things I’ve got to do to, to get her back”.
Reply “And he just went into that mode, where he did not stop, he didn’t sit down, he don’t, I don’t think he allowed himself time to, to sort of grieve for the fact that she wasn’t there”.
1485 “Did you not find that peculiar, the fact that he didn’t want to just sit around and mope and?”
Reply “No cos I know Gerry and he’s just as I said earlier, he’s not, he’s not that sort of character, he never sits down anywhere, he’s a very positive, always got energy, always, he’s just one of these people that you know, makes you feel lazy you know almost, cos he’s just, he’s a very upbeat person and pragmatic as well and he’s right, you know, sitting, sitting there crying isn’t gonna help bring her back, he did his fair bit of sitting there crying believe me but he, he wasn’t, you could see him trying not to allow himself that time just to sit and get sort of down, cos it wasn’t gonna help her and I don’t think I ever saw him sit and relax or have a drink or do nothing, was constantly either on the phone or the computer, you know he was constantly doing something and that carried on I’d say even you know when we went back in July and he was still in that mode and that made me worry more for him actually, cos I think Kate at least, I think you’ve got to grieve you know and I think if you don’t, you think it’s all gonna build up and I was more worried for Gerry that, that he didn’t seem to be giving himself that time to, to be upset”.
1485 “Yes. I think, so you think he didn’t give himself time to, you think he was more in the motivation mode than in the, the grieving mode?”
Reply “I think after the first sort of, the first day they were both useless and I think they’re both in shock and they were both the same but there was a definite change in Gerry, erm party because of you know, I don’t want to sit here and say what wasn’t done, you know, in fact there were a lot of things that, that provoked a lot of anger amongst us that we felt should have been done that wasn’t done in that, those early hours in that first day and, but, what, what’s anger going to get, you’re stuck in a country where your child has gone missing, you’ve got to work with the Police, you can’t, you know, you can’t react and to, and, you know, give out bursts of, you know, why hasn’t this happened because you know it’s not going to happen. And Gerry, that’s the way he was seeing things, he was very, erm, aware that he had to work with the, with the Police here and be sensible about their approach with the media and everything and Kate’s very reactive, you know, she’s, she’s a completely different personality and, you know, if she’s angry she’ll show she’s angry and when she’s upset she’ll show she’s upset, whereas Gerry can be, erm, he’s more able to, to sort of see through all that and just think, hang on what’s right for, what’s right, what’s going to get us further forward here, you know, getting upset and screaming at the Police isn’t going to get us anywhere and he’s always sort of pulling Kate back a bit really and saying, ‘Look, that that’s not going to help, we’ve got to do this’, erm and that’s just the way they are, and that’s the way, before this happened, that’s the personalities they are. So, no, it didn’t surprise me the way Gerry reacted at all because that’s, in any situation, that’s why he’s good at his job, you know, he’s, he’s a very pragmatic person, in an emergency he’s the person you’d want to call on because he thinks straight and he thinks clearly, whereas not all of us do”.
1485 “During the holidays did you happen to see Kate and Gerry talking to somebody unknown?”
Reply “Unknown to me?”
Reply “Erm, yeah, erm, I mean, quite a lot of, but I think they were all sort of MARK WARNER holidaymakers, I mean, they all knew, as I say, Jez, he knew, I didn’t really know Jez, certainly before, erm, May the third and there were a few other couples that I was aware they were quite chatty with, you know, when we went to the Tapas Bar and there’d be another family sat down eating their meal, they might have talked to them, but, again, I didn’t really, erm, know those other couples because we hadn’t really sort of met and we didn’t really make a lot of effort, to be honest. But, again, Kate, that’s the sort of people Kate and Gerry are, they’re very, very sociable, they seem to pick up friends wherever they go and, erm, so, yeah, that again didn’t surprise me, no, they’ve met more people than us”.
1485 “Did you see Gerry and Kate inside a car during the holidays?”
Reply “No, never. They didn’t have a car”.
Reply “(Shakes head). There was no reason to”.
1485 “Okay. We are almost finished now. This is another general question, alright?”
1485 “Again, based on the questions that has been put to you by Gerry and Kate within this interview, is there anything that you think that hasn’t been mentioned that you think ought to be brought out on this interview?”
Reply “Regarding Kate and Gerry?”
1485 “Well regarding the whole affair, you know, Madeleine going missing, Kate and Gerry, is there anything that you, you know, you want to?”
Reply “Well the only thing, again it’s just a reaction to what’s been in the Press sort of doubting Jane’s statement, erm, that I would say, I’ve never been in any, any doubt that what Jane has seen, she has never changed her story to me or to anybody in the group about what she saw on that night from day one and, erm, and I think her bit of evidence is the most convincing, erm, that I’ve heard out of any of us and the most accurate and the most convincing that I’m convinced that was Madeleine”.
1485 “Okay. Is there anything at this stage you want to say to me or ask me or?”
Reply “Umm, no”.
1485 “Anything that might establish exactly what has happened to Madeleine that is burning inside that you want to talk about?”
Reply “No, I mean, you’ve got the information that we’ve got, I mean, we, you know, we’ve all drawn our hypothesis of who could have got in there, how could they have got out, you know, but none of us know, I mean, that’s, that, you’ve got the facts of who went in and who went out of that apartment”.
Reply “Erm, but I’m convinced that what Jane saw was Madeleine being carried away”.
1485 “Okay. Just finally, Fiona, I just want to ask you, you are aware that there is going to be a re-enactment over in Portugal, it is either going to be at the end of April or into May?”
1485 “How do you feel about attending that re-enactment?”
Reply “Well I’ve made my feelings clear in a letter, erm, already. Erm, my feelings are, I would do absolutely anything if I felt it was going to help bring, find Madeleine or find who took her. Erm, my reservations are, at this point, how doing the re-enactment is going to achieve that or advance the search in any way. And, obviously, there is a lot of apprehensions about doing it, just in terms of the media and they way we’ve been treated, the way the media would react to us doing the re-enactment, how they’d sort of physically actually manage to do a re-enactment without massive media intrusion, erm, and how the information would be used, I mean, we all know that we’re telling the truth of our actions on the night and if doing a re-enactment were going to be for the purpose of trying to find holes or, you know, in our movements and statements and try and rubbish our statements, then we know that’s not going to help find Madeleine, because we know, we were there, and we know we’re telling the truth, so I wouldn’t be happy to do it if that was the reason for doing it. I’d just like to be convinced how it’s going to move the investigation on really, erm, to find Madeleine”.
Reply “And, at the moment really, we’ve got no reason to trust the motives of doing a re-enactment when Kate and Gerry are still aguido and, if they’re aguido, I think we’ve all got to be implicated, because I just don’t see how Kate and Gerry could have done anything that’s been suggested without us all being in on it, you know, it’s just impossible”.
1485 “Is that it?”
Reply “So, you know, that’s a big stumbling block really”.
1485 “So, at this present moment, you are saying you wouldn’t?”
Reply “No, I mean, we haven’t really had any, been given any information about how it’s going to be used and that’s the information that I think we would all need if we were going to do it and, obviously, there’s no point one of us doing it without everybody doing it. So, I think, you know, as far as I’m concerned, I’d only do it if everybody else was doing it, otherwise it’s pointless. And I still don’t see, erm, I think, emotionally, it would be hideous to go back and have to do an re-enactment, I really do, and I don’t see how, erm, emotions couldn’t affect the way it was done, because it would just be horrific, I mean, imagine, you know, Jane having to relive that, Kate having relive that, any of us having to relive that, you, you couldn’t do it without it being an emotional thing”.
Reply “Erm, so I just, I just don’t see, I mean, in my eyes, doing it, it would be beneficial if actors and actresses did it because they don’t have that emotion and you can still direct them to exactly what you were doing and where you went and your movements. So, so I still don’t, we still haven’t had an answer to that really, that side of it”.
1485 “Okay. Alright. At this stage I have got nothing else to say to you”.
1485 “As you are aware, the interview is being monitored and it may well be that they have some further questions, but at this present moment, there are no more further questions”.
1485 “Alright. Actually there is. Sorry. Do you have your phone?”
1485 “I just want to clarify your, did you take your mobile with you?”
Reply “I didn’t. My mobile had actually broken before we went on holiday, so we just had Dave’s mobile”.
1485 “Right. So did anybody use your mobile whilst you were away?”
Reply (shakes head)
Reply “They couldn’t have done, no”.
1485 “No. Could you just see if you have any of these numbers in your phone?”
1485 “Zero, seven, eight, nine, nine, eight, one, eight”.
Reply “Zero, seven, eight, nine. I’ll look for zero, seven, eight, nine, nine”.
1485 “The last digits are going to be seven, one, three, that is going to be easiest”.
Reply “Seven, one, three”.
1485 “Sorry, you must have loads. Also look for one that ends in eight, three, seven as well”.
Reply “Ah seven, one, three. Is it zero, seven, eight, nine, nine, eight, one, eight, seven, one, three?”
Reply “That’s my, Simon ALDRIDGE, my brother-in-law”.
1485 “It is who, sorry?”
Reply “Simon ALDRIDGE, he’s my brother-in-law”.
1485 “Is there any reason why he would have been called?”
Reply “We did speak, well it couldn’t have been off my phone, is this from my phone?”
1485 “Well it is possible that it, no, it wouldn’t have been off your phone”.
1485 “It would have been off”.
Reply “It would have been off Dave’s”.
1485 “Dave’s, yeah”.
Reply “We did speak to him, yeah”.
1485 “Did you actually make any calls yourself?”
Reply “Erm, I used, I Dave’s phone. I’m trying to think who phoned Simon. I think Dave phoned Simon the following morning, erm, just because he’s another pragmatic, sensible thinking person”.
Reply “Erm, I mean, you know, we would have phoned all our family that following day anyway”.
Reply “But we had a lot of calls from him. Plus he’s, he was, erm, just wanting to be of help really, so he did phone a fair bit as well, just in terms of, he organised for, erm, mobile phones, erm, you know, Portuguese mobile phones to be sent out to use, he, you know, he runs a business in Leeds, erm, and financially as well, he was offering help if we needed, you know, money”.
1485 “Is there anybody other than family that you rang then?”
Reply “Erm, I rang the Children’s Nursery, tut”.
1485 “Have you got that number in there?”
Reply “Erm, yeah. I think I might have texted them. Erm, two, seven, sorry, it’s zero, one, one, six, two, seven, zero, six, nine, one, six”.
Reply “What was the other ending that you wanted, eight, three, seven?”
1485 “Eight, three, seven, yeah”.
Reply “Sorry, I didn’t get to the last ones. Zero, seven, seven, four, double eight, double for, eight, three, seven?”
1485 “That is it, yeah”.
Reply “That’s Dave’s number”.
1485 “That is Dave’s number, is it?”
Reply “It’s his mobile number, yeah”.
1485 “Another one that ends in six, two, one?”
Reply “(inaudible). Six, two, one. Zero, seven, eight, nine, zero, eight, nine, one, six, two, one, that’s Karen GREEN, which is Dave’s sister”.
1485 “The next one is a Portuguese number, well it is a short number, it is nine, one, seven, two, two, four, one, zero, six?”
Reply “I don’t, I wouldn’t have that in this phone, erm, it’s a Portuguese number. Is it a Portuguese mobile number?”
1485 “I don’t know. It is just too short for, because ours are normally eleven, aren’t they?”
Reply “Yeah, we, because, as I say, Simon did organise, erm, a Portuguese mobile phone for us to use out there, erm, which we’ve still got at home, I couldn’t tell you what the number was for that mobile, but I used that once I was out there, you know, to contact, you know, Dave or, or any of them, I’ve texted on it”.
1485 “Somebody would have rang it or texted it?”
Reply “Yeah, tut, I’m just trying to remember how much I used it, you know, every day. Again, I mean, if I had Dave’s mobile phone bills, which I think we did give to somebody actually, it might have been Kate and Gerry’s Lawyers actually, but we did use those. I can’t remember how much I used them and how much I used the Portuguese phone, but we certainly had a Portuguese mobile”.
1485 “Yeah. It sent a text to eight, three, seven, which is Dave’s phone”.
Reply “Uh hu”.
1485 “On the fourth of the fifth, so it is the following night”.
1485 “At twenty-two zero two”.
Reply “So we would have been at the Police Station”.
1485 “And then twenty-two zero eight”.
Reply “Sorry, from which phone, because we wouldn’t have had the Portuguese phone by then?”
1485 “It would have sent, the Portu, well I’ve got the Port”.
Reply “I don’t know how quickly the phone arrived”.
Reply “I can’t imagine it was that quick”.
1485 “The Portuguese phone, or that number, sent a text to Dave’s number at twenty-two zero two on the fourth, the following night?”
Reply “So it was when I was being interviewed that evening. I don’t think our phones came out that, I can’t imagine they would have been out by then, on the Friday night, so I don’t know. I’ll just check it isn’t, are you sure it’s a Portuguese number? Just read the number out again, I’ll just check it”.
1485 “It is nine, one, seven, two, two, four, one, zero, six”.
Reply “Yeah, it is a funny number, isn’t it?”
1485 “It has only got nine digits as opposed to our eleven”.
Reply “Yeah. No, I haven’t got that number on and I can’t think, I can’t think who could have sent a Portuguese number at that point. Dave might recall when our mobile phones came out, but I’m sure it wasn’t, it couldn’t have been that quickly, erm”.
1485 “Okay. Here is another number that ends in, it looks like it ends in seven, seven, four, three”.
Reply “Seven, seven, four, three”.
1485 “It might not necessarily be a mobile number”.
Reply “Erm, Dave’s mum, Diane PAYNE. Is it zero, zero, four, four, one, seven, zero, six, three, five, double seven, four, three?”
1485 “Say that again?”
Reply “I’ve got zero, zero, four, four, one, seven, zero, six, three, five, double seven, four, three?”
1485 “That is it, yeah. Who is that, sorry?”
Reply “That’s Diane PAYNE, it’s Dave’s mother”.
1485 “Yeah, there was calls made on the fourth from Dave’s mobile number?”
Reply “Umm, to Diane, yeah”.
1485 “So to his mum?”
1485 “The next one ends in five, three, three, one”.
Reply “Five, three, three, one”.
1485 “It may well be zero, one, eight, five, eight, if that rings a bell”.
Reply “(inaudible). I’ll just go through methodically. Five, three, three, one. Erm, five, three, three, one is, erm, yeah, zero, one, eight, five, eight, five, three, five, three, three, one, that is Karen GREEN’s home number”.
1485 “And who did you say that was?”
Reply “That’s Dave’s sister”.
1485 “Yeah. Do you know what the nature of those calls were?”
Reply “Well it was purely letting people know what had happened really and obviously there was a lot of concern back home as soon as the, the news hit, erm”.
1485 “And would you have made those calls from David’s phone or would Dave have made them?”
Reply “No, Dave made, Dave spoke to his family, I didn’t speak to this family”.
1485 “Okay. The next one, I think it is zero, two, zero, seven, so it could be a London number. Two, zero, six, one it ends it”.
Reply “Two, zero, six, one. No, that’s not in my mobile, but I’m just recalling, I did make some phone calls on behalf of Kate, erm, the following morning and those, it’s a shame, because we’ve all swapped mobiles, you see, and not all of them were transferred, but I’m pretty sure, erm, I rang at least two on Dave’s phone, just to let them know, again, you know, what had happened”.
1485 “Is that in the morning?”
Reply “Erm, that would have been, yeah, the following morning. I mean, I would be just saying to Kate, you know, ‘What can we do. What can we do’, and that was just one of the things, she said, ‘Look, just everyone will be panicking at home, just’, you know, ‘if you can contact a few people’. So, yeah, those might be numbers that I wouldn’t have now in my mobile that”.
1485 “Dave could well have them?”
Reply “Well he’s changed his mobile as well because his died a death, so I don’t think all his numbers are, you know, they weren’t all saved on the SIM card. But it’s easy enough for me to find out if they are, erm, friends or”.
1485 “Okay. There is two more left anyway. The first one is, it is a mobile number and it ends in seven, zero, four, six”.
Reply “Seven, zero, four six. Is that zero, seven, seven, seven, nine, two, eight, seven, zero, four, six, that’s a friend of mine, Lisa LAKHANI”.
Reply “LAKHANI. L, A, K, H, A, N, I”.
1485 “And where does she live?”
Reply “She lives near to us in Leicester, erm”.
1485 “And who was it that rang her or text her?”
Reply “I would have rang her”.
1485 “It is actually a text”.
Reply “I would have called her and, I think, at that point, it was just to check on the house, erm, she had a key to my house and she’s a good friend as well”.
1485 “And the final one ends in three, one, two, three”.
Reply “Three, one, two, three. Sorry, I’ve forgotten, three, two, one, three?”
1485 “Three, one, two, three”.
Reply “Three, one, two, three”.
Reply “No, not got that one”.
1485 “Not got that one?”
Reply (shakes head)
Reply “Again, as I say, it could be (inaudible)”.
1485 “That is it. Unless somebody else has any more questions, alright?”
1485 “It is now shown at three fifty-two and we will stop it”.