Person Interviewed: Fiona PAYNE
Place of Interview: Force Headquarters Enderby
Date of Interview: 10/04/08
Time Commenced: 0855 hours
Time Concluded: 1025 hours
Interviewing Officer(s) DC 1485 MESSIAH
Other Persons Present None
1485 “Okay. The machine is now recording which means this interview is being video recorded, okay. The date is the third, sorry, the date is the tenth of April two thousand and eight and I make the time by my watch coming up to eight fifty-five on that morning, alright?”
1485 “We are at an interview room in Force Headquarters in Leicestershire Police. My name is DC Ivor MESSIAH and I work at Leicestershire Major Crime Team. Could you introduce yourself please, your name and date of birth and where you live?”
Reply “Yeah, my name is Fiona PAYNE, my date of birth is twenty-ninth of August nineteen seventy-two and I live at eighty-two Knighton Church Road in Leicester”.
1485 “Thank you. The purpose of you being here Fiona is an incident relating to the holiday in Praia Da Luz last year or specifically May the third”.
Reply “Uh hu”.
1485 “But I understand that you went out prior to May the third?”
Reply “Uh hu”.
1485 “And you came back after May the third?”
Reply “Uh hu”.
1485 “Alright. It is what we call a significant witness interview, in other words, you are a witness”.
Reply “Uh hu”.
1485 “So, you know, there will be no challenging questions, they will be all open questions”.
Reply “Uh hu”.
1485 “Take as much time as you need to answer the questions and I will ask you to answer the questions in their entirety, anything you can remember, you know, try and exhaust it if you can”.
1485 “Because then it eliminates me coming back and asking you more questions”.
1485 “As I say, we are working at your pace and I will certainly listen to you, everything you say. My colleague is making notes in the monitoring room and he will be bringing to my attention if there is anything I have missed or, you know, he wants you to cover, okay?”
1485 “And, as I say, the reason for these interviews is we have been asked to facilitate this by the Portuguese Authorities, alright?”
1485 “Are you happy with that so far?”
1485 “And, as I say, we work in what we call a cognitive interview basis, what that means is, you know, we try and put you back at the time that you, you know, that we are referring to, to see what you can remember, alright?”
1485 “How we are going to start the interview, I am going to do it, I am just going to do it in sort of phases to try and help you remember”.
1485 “Sort of chronological order if you like”.
1485 “There will be some questions that the PJ have asked us to speak to you about”.
1485 “And there are questions that the McCANN family has asked us to talk to you about, alright?”
1485 “But mostly they will be questions based on what you tell me”.
1485 “And, you know, it is all nice and fluid, alright?”
1485 “Okay. So I will ask you first of all to tell me a bit about yourself and your family?”
Reply “Okay. Erm, erm, I’m thirty, I’ll work that out actually, I’m thirty-five years old. I work as an Anaesthetist at Leicester and Leicester Registrar. I’m married to David PAYNE. We have got two children, Scarlet who is the youngest who is, who will two next month and Lily who is four in August. You know, we have a fairly uneventful life really, we are quite, before the third of May, very happy, you know, worked hard, but enjoyed holidays and, you know, always made specific time to take holidays as a family. Erm, we have a very good base of friends in Leicester who we see a lot of, we make a lot of time for. A lot of the people I knew them, who have trained with us and we’ve done house jobs with and, erm, so friends, you know, are a big part of our lives”.
1485 “Uh hu”.
Reply “Erm, I don’t know what else to say”.
1485 “What is it you do for a living?”
Reply “I’m an Anaesthetist, so I, erm, it combines a lot of different skills, we work in obstetrics, on labour ward doing epidurals, doing caesarean sections for women and we work on intensive care unit, in theatres, cover any need for, you know, resuscitation. So, yeah, it’s quite a stressful job and a busy job, erm, I enjoy it”.
1485 “And how long have you been”.
Reply “Erm, I’ve been an Anaesthetist since about ninety-seven, erm, in Leicester”.
Reply “Yeah, and since I’ve had the children I work part-time sort of three days a week, yeah”.
1485 “Good. Okay. I want to refer now to your holiday, alright”.
1485 “What I want you to try and do is to, from the moment that the holiday was suggested, in other words, who suggested the holiday”.
1485 “Because I understand that it was booked by yourselves?”
1485 “What I want you to do is, how the holiday came about”.
1485 “Who suggested it. Who booked it”.
1485 “Go through the whole process and stop at the holiday day”.
Reply “Okay. Erm, I think the idea had first come about really back, erm, in the previous year. Erm, I’d been on holiday with Dave, erm, and our children, with Matt and Rachael and their child, Grace, and Russ and Jane and their two children and we’d been to Greece for a week. Erm, it wasn’t a MARK WARNER, it was, erm, I can’t remember which company it was with, but it was a very small holiday, erm, environment, where you sort of had all the walled off area with a few villas and a shared pool and a restaurant, erm, and we had a great time and we’ve all got very young children and the kids had a great time. So the, the idea was sort of seeded, you know, that it would be nice to do a similar thing again. We’d also been on the year before a kind of, another group villa holiday with friends, Kate and Gerry being, erm, one of that group. So we just found with young children it was a really nice way of, of having a holiday. So it was our suggestion I think, erm, January time, it was just after Christmas, erm, you know, I’d just gone back to work, I was going back to work in March and just wanted something to sort of look forward to. Erm, and the others, again Jane and, erm, Russell and Matt and Rachael had been on MARK WARNER holidays before and had really enjoyed it as had Dave and I. So the idea of a MARK WARNER holiday sort of came up then really, thinking oh that would be great with the kids and it would also the adults some time to do some sports, we’re all quite sporty, we’re particular into sort of water sports and others into tennis, so we thought well, you know, it would be a nice, a nice holiday. Erm, Dave’s idea was Portugal. Erm, I’d never been to Portugal before and he’d been, erm, at least once before (inaudible), erm, a few years ago with his sister and he, he was always very keen to go back. Erm, and I hadn’t been, it sounded nice, so we sort of looked at the Portugal website and thought well it’s good flight times for the kids, erm, it was quite early on in the season there so we were sort of in two minds whether it might be warm enough, et cetera. But, but spoke to others, erm, at that point I think, erm, we put it to, I think they were the only four, erm, three families we put it to really and Jane and Russell were very keen immediately as were sort of Matt and Rachael and Kate and Gerry were a bit undecided. Erm, and this always haunts me, erm, because Kate, huh, what had she said, when I was sort of twisting her arm really, she was unsure, I think Gerry was immediately quite keen, erm, to come and Kate had said, when I rang up, she said ‘I don’t know why I’ve just got an uneasy feeling about it’. And I don’t know why she said that, I don’t think she even knows, I never mentioned it to her since, but she said, you know, that was it really, but Gerry was so keen that she just sort of thought okay let’s go for it. And I think also they’d booked quite a few other breaks around that time so they were less keen to come”.
1485 “That is Gerry and Kate?”
Reply “Yeah. Erm, and then on, erm, they booked it, we booked it, erm, I can’t remember whether that was end of January, beginning of February, that sort of time. Erm, and following booking it, sorry, if I backtrack a bit. We’d all been on MARK WARNER holidays, erm, in Greece, erm, I don’t think anyone had been anywhere else in Europe, but all those MARK WARNER holidays had, were very much the same, erm, different resorts but the same sort of layout, the same hypothesis of, you know, having kid time and adult time”.
Reply “They all offered a babysitting service. When Dave and I went we didn’t have children, but we were very aware, we met lots of couples that were using the babysitting ser, baby listening service, erm, where, you know, somebody goes, goes round the rooms and listens at the door for any, any children crying, erm, and then if they hear any crying they’ll come and fetch you and you’ve told them where you are. So we were very familiar with that ethos of MARK WARNER and we assumed that the Portuguese one operated the same way and in the brochure it sold itself the same way as all the others. And it was only after booking that I specifically went through and said ‘Well it doesn’t actually mention the baby listening service on this one’ and I rang up to check, because that was a big part, you know, we, we wanted to be able to have the social aspect of, of a holiday going away in a group and, plus, at that point, they couldn’t, erm, they, they said ‘Oh it’s a bit more spread out and we can’t put you all together in the same block’ and that again was a bit annoying if they didn’t have the baby listening service, so I’d rung up specifically to find out about this and was actually a bit annoyed when they said ‘Well actually this doesn’t operate a baby listening service’, because I don’t think we would have booked it had we known that”.
Reply “Erm, so, but then I made the point and Dave had lots of emails with them saying ‘Well if you can’t, if you’re not doing that I feel your brochure is misleading and we would like all our apartments to be at least together if you can’t’, you know, ‘if you’re not offering that can you at least guarantee that’. And there was a lot of emailing to’ing and fro’ing before about this, erm, maybe me being a bit difficult, I don’t know. Erm, but, you know, as it was altered, they did manage to put us all close together as a group. Erm, so, you know, we thought well in the evenings we could at least get them to bed and with our baby monitors we can at least sort of have a drink together on, on a, on a balcony and still be all together, you know, looking after the children, so that was our plan before going really, that’s what we’d do. Erm, other than booking it I”.
1485 “Where was it booked, was it booked in shop or was it booked over the Internet?”
Reply “Yeah, it was booked on-line”.
1485 “And was there a brochure that showed the holiday?”
Reply “We had a brochure through the, through the post”.
1485 “Yeah. And who was instrumental in the booking?”
Reply “Dave I think did the actual on-line, but it was, it was both of us. I’m trying to think if anybody booked for themselves. I think, I think all of it. I, I have a feeling Kate and Gerry might have booked their part. Dave will probably remember more. I know we definitely booked for Matt and Rachael and handled their money and Russ and Jane we handled their money. I have a feeling, we probably booked it for Kate and Gerry but I think they paid, you know, we didn’t pay for them, I think Gerry paid directly. As I say, Dave did the actual booking and he might remember more about that”.
1485 “Okay. And where did you fly from?”
Reply “Erm, East Midlands”.
1485 “And who was on the flight?”
Reply “Erm, we flew, we organised, erm, our own flights, because obviously Matt and Rachael and Jane and Russell are South and nearer London and the actual MARK WARNER flights were from London, we felt, with our children being the age they were and the flight times it was just going to be a nightmare, erm, getting up, you know, really early in the morning and getting down to London, so we opted to organise our own flights from, you know, our regional Airport. Erm, so we got some money off the price, again it was a lot of emailing about that as well, I’d forgotten that, but, erm, yeah, they, they gave us a certain amount of money off the holiday, erm, to allow us to arrange our own transport. So, erm, Gerry had booked a local taxi firm from around the Rothley area, I don’t know where he was from, erm, to pick us all up from Kate and Gerry’s house and Dave and I just travelled over the morning we flew. Erm, we took the taxi from their house and we all went in a big sort of minibus minicab together”.
Reply “And we flew together. And at the other end we’d arranged, Gerry had arranged, erm, transport to pick us up, erm, at FARO and take us to the MARK WARNER. So we, we all arrived separately to the other group, they’d arrived a bit earlier”.
1485 “Okay. What time was your flight?”
Reply “Tut, phew”.
1485 “Can you remember?”
Reply “It was morning. Erm, I remember being up early. Tut, I’d guess around ten o’clock, something like that. I, I really can’t remember”.
1485 “And what about the flight itself, was it eventful, did you talk to anybody else other than your party?”
Reply “Erm, tut, no, I think it was pretty uneventful, I mean, I don’t recall really speaking to anybody else. I was sat with Scarlet who was, you know, (inaudible), my mum and Dave and then Gerry and Kate were sort of in front and I think we occupied three rows between us. Erm, there was a lot of seat hopping between the kids, but pretty much they were all well behaved and, you know, we didn’t, we didn’t really chat to anybody else that I recall”.
1485 “Okay. So just tell me who was actually in your party when you were on the plane?”
Reply “Myself, Dave, my mother, erm, our two children, Lily and Scarlet, Kate and Gerry and their three children, Madeleine, Sean and Amelie and that was it”.
1485 “Okay. So when you get to FARO”.
Reply “Uh hu”.
1485 “You said that you were picked up?”
1485 “Any issues at the Airport prior to coming out to your transport?”
Reply “Erm, no, well we had a, erm, a sort of discussion about car seats, whether they’d booked the right car seats for the kids, erm, and I think, as it was, I think Madeleine didn’t have a, a booster seat. Erm, but, no, no, it was all fairly straight forward, we arrived and though, got picked up, I don’t remember there being any issues”.
1485 “Okay. We move on then to the actual transfer. How long did that take?”
Reply “It was about I think an hour and a half. I think an hour and a half, two hours, something like that”.
1485 “Quite a long time. A long journey”.
Reply “Yeah, well I think the kids were exhausted and they sort of slept and we had, I think it was an hour and a half, it’s things like that I, I honestly, find it hard to recall. It was certainly, it was a good length journey, yeah”.
1485 “Okay. So when you get to your resort”.
Reply “Uh hu”.
1485 “Tell me about when you get to the resort and, you know, the booking-in procedure, where you eventually, where your apartment was, what number it was, tell me all about the, you know, your intro?”
Reply “Yeah, we arrived, erm, at the sort of main reception area, got everybody out, I think the men went in to do the actual booking-in, I remember just standing out with Kate outside with all the baggage and the children, erm, you know, so it’s either both Dave and Gerry or just Dave went in and, erm, and booked us all in. then we had to wait for the sort of MARK WARNER bus to pick up and take us to the apartments, there was a bit of a wait there, about fifteen minutes or so and then, yeah, a chap came with a minibus and we all sort of piled in with all the luggage and he took us to the apartments. This sounds ridiculous, but I can’t even remember the number of the apartment I was in. Erm, I can’t remember. But we were on the second floor, so we were one up, everybody else was on the ground floor. Erm, and we were the only ones that had, had booked to have a two bedroomed apartment. Erm, I think Matt and, erm, Russ and Jane had only booked a one bedroomed one but they actually did get a two bedroomed one. So whether that was because of, you know, and that made us one floor up, I don’t know. So we had a balcony and we had a slightly bigger apartment. Erm, because of that our apartment seemed to be the meeting point for lunchtimes and things like that, just because it was bigger and had a view, a better view than the others. Erm, the others were all ready there, i.e. Matt and Rachael and Russ and Jane, they arrived a couple of hours before us, erm, it might have even been longer, I’m just trying to think of the time, it was certainly sort of nearer teatime by the time we got there and I think they’d arrived somewhere lunchtime, so they’d already had a bit of an afternoon there. Erm, and then when we got there we’d all sort of sat out on our balcony for a bit and just had a drink and a catch up, erm, with all the kids. Erm, tut, and then I think, I’m trying to think where we ate the first night, I think we all went to the Millennium Restaurant, erm, which had a sort of kids super and that was certainly sort of, sort of early evening, I can’t remember whether it was six or seven, that sort of time, I remember the kids being very tired, erm, but we all trooped across and had a massive table, you know, overtook the Restaurant, erm, that was the only night that we ate there, erm, mainly because it, it was a bit of a walk and certainly with the younger kids it, you know, imagine we’re having to pick them up and put them down and they’re wanting to walk, it just took ages and it was quite sort of late for the children, they were sort of not behaving particularly well and just very tired and wanted to go to bed, so it wasn’t a great success. Erm, tut, and then I think, you know, once we, the following day we got more to grips with the layout of the place, erm, and the other places you could eat, we sort of saw the Tapas Bar and that well that looks ideal, you know, to eat, because, you know”.
1485 “Uh hu”.
Reply “It was right across form the apartments. Erm, so I think it was the second night we tried to book in there but we couldn’t because it was fully booked, then we realised, you know, you had, a lady who was taking the bookings said ‘Oh, you know, you’ve really got to book first thing in the morning, it gets really busy’. Erm, so the following morning, I don’t, I don’t know who it was, I think it was Rachael who sort of got in early and booked us in for that night. I don’t know whether it was that day or the following day she’d asked if, if there was any chance of just booking us in for the whole week, because it was so close and so much more convenient that it would have been ideal for us, and I think she was a bit reluctant, but, you know, said she’d do that. Erm, so from there on, well we didn’t really think much more, more about it really, it seemed to be a, our routine, we all had our own sort of fixed routine from quite early on and not, not everybody’s was the same, but, you know, generally, erm, everybody, but Kate and Gerry and their children, sort of would go to the Millennium for breakfast, for a buffet breakfast, erm, we’d all be at slightly different times, but, generally, you know, you’d see someone else there in the morning for breakfast. All the kids were booked into their relevant kids clubs, erm, Scarlet was the only one that was in the baby crèche and that was kind of next door to where Madeleine and Ella were in the sort of older kids club and that was near the main reception. So after lunch I generally, after breakfast, sorry, I generally walked with Scarlet to the baby club, erm, with or without either Jane, Russell, Kate, erm, I’d sometimes meet Kate or Gerry dropping Madeleine off there, erm, and then Dave would take Lily over to the kids club which was back near the, behind the Tapas Bar area”.
Reply “Erm, and then after that we, Dave and I had booked in for a whole week of either, sort of alternate ski, erm, water sports, one day would be wind surfing, the next day sailing. Erm, so we’d sort of meet up on the beach after dropping the kids off for, for our lesson. And, generally, the others had booked different things. Some of them had booked some sort of, to do some tennis lessons or, Kate and Gerry were doing tennis, Jane was doing some tennis and I think she’d booked some wind surfing as well. Erm, so everybody had their own thing for the morning really. And then, erm, come lunchtime we’d pick them up, pick the kids up and meet back at the, at our apartment and, generally, I think, every day, we fed the kids in our apartment and usually Matt and Rachael came, would come up and Russ and Jane were there and the kids and usually Kate and Gerry had theirs in their apartment, mainly because their, they just found it easier”.
Reply “Erm, with the three of theirs. Erm, I’m trying to think if they came up earlier on in the week, I don’t, I think they might have, might have had the odd lunch, but, on the whole, they’d sort of, they did their own thing at lunchtime. I think for us we were, all our children were still having sort of afternoon sleeps, erm, so we’d stay at the apartment after lunch, get the kids down and just sit on the balcony and read while the kids had a nap and then, erm, when they got up we’d, you know, go for a walk to the beach or play by the pool, but they just went to the kiddie care for the morning only (inaudible). Erm, so, yeah, the kids teatime, I think that was around, it was quite early, half four I think, five o’clock, erm, that was another sort of meeting point of the day really, where the crèche would organise the tea and that was sort of outside the Tapas area, erm, and generally all of us would meet for that, all the kids had tea together. Erm, and usually after they’d had tea, we’d just have another bit of run around with them in the play area, there was a sort of children’s playground just by the Tapas Bar as well, so they just sort of played there and that was next to the tennis courts and most evenings they’d have some sort of tennis event on and so a lot of us would, erm, partake in a bit of tennis while, you know, take it in turns looking after the kids and the kids would watch the tennis. Erm, that’s what we did every night, then we’d all go back, put the kids down to bed, erm, it was generally quite late by the time they’d all gone to sleep and were all quiet and once they were quiet we’d, erm, meet at the Tapas and I think it was booked for half eight every night, erm, we were usually late, I think everyone will say that”.
1485 “Been told”.
Reply “Yeah, yeah. Erm, but it worked really well and, you know, everybody was checking, had their own sort of, I mean, we didn’t really formally discuss what everybody was doing, we just all felt it was fine to sort of operate our own baby listening service, I guess that’s what we thought we were doing, what every MARK WARNER holiday we’d been on before did. Erm, tut, we didn’t, Dave and I and my mum didn’t because we, we brought our baby monitor, which worked, we’d tested it, it’s a digital monitor so it’s offering, erm, continuous monitoring of sound every second and it alarms if it loses contact or anything, so on the first day we’d sort of tried that by the, you know, by the Tapas Bar and it worked, so we didn’t even go back and check our children, we took the monitor out, erm, and very much felt we were doing what we do at home really, you know, putting them to sleep and listen, if they cried we’d hear. Erm, the others had, you know, decided they were sort of going back every twenty minutes, erm, and checking on their own children. I think, on the whole, I wasn’t really aware of people cross checking each other’s children, although on the night and previous nights there would have been the odd occasion where somebody was, was, was going and saying ‘Oh I’ve listened in at your door and your kids are fine’ or ‘I’ve checked on yours and they’re fine’, so there was a bit of that going on, but, on the whole, people checked their own children. Erm, and, again, on the actual night Madeleine was taken, that was, was very much different, I think, to, to previous nights, in that, there was probably more cross checking that night”.
Reply “Erm, as it happens”.
1485 “During this interview, when you are giving me a recall or a bit of a, you know, telling me all about what has happened”.
1485 “I will occasionally ask you to go back”.
1485 “So don’t be frustrated by ‘Well I’ve already answered that’”.
Reply “No, that’s fine, yeah”.
1485 “And what I meant to say at the beginning as well, there may be a lot of times where you have been asked these questions before”.
1485 “But, you know, I will ask you to repeat certain things”.
1485 “Just for my benefit so I can be fair to my”.
1485 “My own interview notes and just to make sure that I understand, you know, your recalling”.
1485 “Take you back, when you first got there”.
1485 “You said that you couldn’t remember your apartment number?”
1485 “Can you describe, when you look, presumably it is a, you had a pool view, did you?”
1485 “So tell me who was where within your block?”
Reply “My block, well as you, I mean, do you know the layout of the apartments, there’s, erm, a sort of covered area with the stairwell in it, which is, is the front entrance I suppose, we were up the stairwell. erm, and as you came out the stairwell we were just sort of, the door was a bit over to the left, erm, of the block. Erm, the others directly below us, erm, would have Jane and Russell and to the left of them, as you look at the front of the apartments, was Matt and Rachael and, I’m trying to think, I think there was one in between Matt and Rachael and Kate and Gerry, but it was, I don’t know whether anyone was in there”.
1485 “Would it help if I got you to do a little bit of a plan, would that help?”
Reply “Yeah, I mean”.
1485 “If you just do an overall block and then section it and then try and describe where they, where everybody else’s apartments were in relation to yours”.
Reply “I mean, erm, it’s quite a long block”.
Reply “Erm, take that as the stairwell, my drawings aren’t very good. We were up on the first floor. Do you want me to draw two?”
1485 “Well the pool was there and which side is”.
Reply “The pool is here”.
1485 “Yeah, I understand that now, yeah”.
Reply “The Tapas Bar was there”.
Reply “Erm, our apartment, it’s probably looking in sort of this area, so if I make this the first floor”.
Reply “Our apartment will be sort of that sort of, sorry, I’m having to put the stairs over here. Erm, so our, that was our balcony sort of really looking straight at the Tapas Bar”.
1485 “Uh hu”.
Reply “Erm, and then, I’m trying to think, Jane and Russell, I have to think, as I look over the balcony, actually, because I think Jane and Russell were slightly to the right because we could see all their gardens and floors from our balcony. I’m just trying to envisage, their apartment must have been pretty much beneath us but slightly spilling over to the right, I think you could just about see their garden from one of the sides. I think Jane and Russell were about there, that’s the ground floor, and Matt and Rachael to the left of them and I think there was another one or two apartments in between, I can’t be sure about that, but certainly Kate and Gerry were on the end and then we could see into their garden from our balcony”.
1485 “Okay. And I take it your mum was in this apartment with yourselves?”
Reply “She was in our apartment, yeah, she had a, a fold down bed, but, erm, she just slept in the living, in the living room all the time on the fold down bed”.
1485 “Do you recall seeing any other, was there any other apartments being occupied, on the first floor, for example, with yourselves?”
Reply “Yeah, erm, again, I get mixed up sort of after Madeleine went missing than before really, because I suppose we were more conscious of people after and it very much felt that there weren’t may other people there the week we were holidaying. Erm, and I don’t know whether that’s partly because when you go in a group you’re not really looking outside your group, whereas maybe if you were just on your own as a family you’re more aware of other people. Erm, but I’m trying to think on the first floor, I don’t, it seemed extremely quiet, I can’t say I was really aware of any other families that we came across or met or talked to on that first week, erm, although I’m sure there were apartments occupied”.
1485 “So, primarily, you didn’t speak to anybody else other than your party?”
Reply “No, I mean, I actually think that Dave and I were quite sort of insular really that first week and, you know, I know, through the tennis, the other couples met other, got more friendly with other people on the MARK WARNER holiday, erm, whereas, you know, we didn’t really meet that many people to be honest, we were the only ones doing the sailing, there was, I think there was one other chap, who I can’t even remember his name, he was doing the sailing, but, but it was pretty much just Dave and I for the lessons, it was that quiet, erm, there just weren’t that many people being, getting involved in other things really, I suppose the tennis was more sociable”.
1485 “Uh hu”.
Reply “Erm, so, no, I don’t recall”.
1485 “In relation to your rooms, were they allocated before you arrived”.
1485 “Or were they allocated at the desk when you got there?”
Reply “No, I had the feeling they were allocated before we’d arrived. We didn’t know where they were or the position of them, we’d asked that they were together, but I, I’m assuming they were, they were pre-allocated, because of the emails that were going on”.
1485 “Yeah. And when you got there was there any resistance in relation to being allowed to have your apartments altogether?”
Reply “No, I mean, there was nothing said when we arrived there about any of the (inaudible) before, erm, no”.
1485 “Okay. You mentioned about the baby listening facility?”
1485 “Did the resort have or did the apartments have, you know, the facility for baby listening?”
1485 “They didn’t?”
1485 “And I understand, from what you said earlier on, that you took your own?”
1485 “What sort of equipment have you got?”
Reply “It’s a PHILLIPS digital monitor, I couldn’t tell you the model, it’s just, well it was the latest that had come out when Scarlet was born, because we got a new one because our old one that we had with Lily didn’t work, so, yeah, it’s a digital, a digital monitor”.
1485 “And who would have possession of that in, you know, from a day-to-day, well sort of from the evening?”
Reply “Well we only needed it. I did, I had sole possession of it. It was sat with me”.
1485 “And how does it generally work, do you have one?”
Reply “You have a base unit which we put, sort of Scarlet was in, erm, one room and, erm, at right angles to Lily, and we’d left them asleep with the door open, and the monitor’s in between the two rooms, erm, plugged in, you then have your remote, erm, which, you know, you also have to turn on, erm, you know, it has, erm, tut, an alarm that will alarm if it’s not in contact with the base unit, a very loud alarm, erm, and you can set the volume and the sensitivity that you want, so how much noise you want it to pick up and alarm for, erm, and if you have it on full sensitivity it just picks up everything, it’s in constant contact with the noise in that room and that’s what we had it on, full sensitivity and full volume”.
1485 “Okay. And did you use it every night?”
Reply “We used it every night”.
1485 “Every night. Did anybody else use it?”
Reply “Our monitor?”
1485 “Did anybody else in the party have a monitor?”
Reply “Russ and Jane brought their monitor and they had it with, I was aware Jane had her monitor with her, but I don’t think it was a digital one and it wasn’t very reliable, which his why they didn’t rely on it. They had it with them, erm, but Jane had to sort of lift it up above the level of the hedge to actually get a signal. Erm, so they had it with them and I don’t know how much they really used it, but they, they were still doing what everyone else was dong and going back and checking”.
1485 “Okay. I will come onto the relay checking later”.
1485 “I will ask you to try and recall as much as you can about the relay”.
1485 “And I appreciate that, you know, you didn’t have to do it”.
1485 “But, you know, try and remember. In relation to your apartment”.
1485 “Can I ask you to get your sketch head on again?”
Reply “Yeah, I’m a terrible drawer”.
1485 “Just give me a general layout of your apartment please?”
Reply “Erm, okay, so this is the front door, erm, yeah, as you walk in the front door, there’s the sort of kitchenette area on the right, it had a sort of hole in the wall so you could see through into the dining area, that was a dining table and there’s a window there, erm, there was French doors just to the side of the table there, sliding, that opened out onto the balcony, which was quite large, and there’s a table and chairs, erm, then the layout of the sitting room, so that’s a bedroom, one, I’m just trying to think how it was laid out, it must have been like that actually, so that’s a bathroom there, that’s the bigger bedroom, bedroom one, and there was another bedroom there and then this was a sort of communal living area, so it had a telly there and there was a sofa there, I think there was another one there and a chair, I think it was just a chair and a table. That’s the sort of layout”.
1485 “Okay. So just to talk through it then. You have got the main, the front door here?”
1485 “To the right is a kitchen”
1485 “And what was that, sorry?”
Reply “The dining room table”.
1485 “Dining room table”.
1485 “To the left you have got bedroom two?”
1485 “Who slept in bedroom two?”
Reply “That was Lily, she had a cot just there, there was Lily and there was a window”.
1485 “Okay. And bedroom one?”
Reply “Bedroom one, there was a big double bed, Dave and I, and Scarlet was in the corner in a travel cot”.
1485 “Okay. Where did your mum sleep?”
Reply “Mum slept in the living room, there was a sofa bed which she sort of pulled down and generally put that there I think”.
Reply “Yeah, at night-time”.
1485 “And which room would the intercom be in?”
Reply “The intercom was actually placed literally in between the two, this is the door to the bedroom there and it was placed there”.
1485 “On the floor?”
Reply “Yeah, on the floor, just between the two rooms”.
1485 “And what about the, how did you leave the doors?”
Reply “We left them just slightly open”.
1485 “When you say ‘slightly’, sorry to be intricate here, but at forty-five degrees do you think or less than forty-five or half?”
Reply “A bit less, probably, probably about a third of the way open”.
1485 “Okay. And that’s both doors, is it?”
1485 “Okay. Thank you. What I will ask you to do later on is exhibit, referring to that, is exhibit those and, you know, we will put a label on them and we will retain it, okay?”
Reply “Yeah, okay”.
1485 “So other people will see your drawings. Okay. So let’s talk about, what I want to try and do now is just try and summarise. The day that you got there was the twenty-eighth of April?”
1485 “What I want to try and do now, if you can summarise Saturday to Wednesday, try and summarise it. When I say ‘summarise’, because you mentioned earlier on that there was a lot of, the relaying occurred when you went out?”
Reply “You mean the evenings?”
1485 “Yeah, well talk me through your day, because you said that you booked in for wind surfing?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah”.
1485 “Tell me what you did Sunday?”
Reply “Well, I mean, this is, phew, you know, where it’s very hard to pick out each, each day now, erm, I probably had more idea then, and I don’t know how much of that will be in my first interview, that might be something that’s been said, but, huh, I think because every day was very similar”.
Reply “As I say, it’s hard to pick out one day different to the other. There were, there were a couple of different days where we did something slightly different, erm, tut, but, generally, as I say, on the whole, every, I mean, every morning we went to Millennium, erm, and that was, generally, sort of between eight and nine in the morning when the kids were up and dressed, erm, and we’d be ready to take them straight to the kiddie care straight from, from breakfast, erm”.
1485 “Do you know who their Nanny was or who looked after them?”
Reply “Well Lily, yeah, I don’t know who her, I don’t, the, you know, key workers were any more, I can’t remember the names. Erm, yeah, Lily went to the toddler club and Evie and Grace and Sean and Amelie were, were all in the same room. Erm, you know, I knew some of the names of the Nannies there but I don’t who her key worker was. Erm, and Scarlet, again, I can’t remember the name of the girl who was, who was looking after Scarlet. Erm, there was only kind of two babies in the baby room and about three, huh, carers, again, it was very quiet. Erm, so, you know, once they were dropped off, as I said, we, we, I’d walked down to the beach on my own and meet Dave there, erm, for our lesson. Erm, I can’t remember which started first, I think the wind surfing was on the, would have been on the Sunday and then it sort of alternated each day between sailing and wind surfing. But because of the weather conditions, erm, they weren’t very good for wind surfing, so we ended up doing, erm, I think on the actual Thursday we should have been doing wind surfing and we actually did sailing, because there was no wind, but then it was very rough. Erm, so that, you know, as I say, things did”.
Reply “Did vary, erm”.
1485 “The Sunday was obviously the day after you got there?”
1485 “So what was the weather like, for example?”
Reply “I’m just trying to think”.
1485 “That probably might put you, that might put you back in it a little bit more there”.
Reply “The weather wasn’t very good, on the whole, and it was quite cold, erm, and there wasn’t a lot of wind at all for the, in the mornings for the sailing, because it, and wind surfing, it was all a bit of a, a wash out. Erm, but, yeah, it was quite cold, quite cloudy, it’d have spells of sunshine, but the weather wasn’t great those first sort of two days, two or three days. Erm, it didn’t rain or anything. And I can’t really, huh, you know, tell you more than that”.
1485 “You walked down to the beach, obviously for your lesson?”
1485 “How long would that have taken and who did you walk with?”
Reply “I’d be on my own, having, having dropped Scarlet off, and no-one else, other than Dave, was, erm, was going down for the lesson, so, you know, I don’t, I don’t think I even saw him, met him on the way”.
Reply “We sort of met down there. I was usually there first because it was a bit closer”.
Reply “Erm, to the crèche. Erm, but, no, I mean, it was always very quiet, didn’t, again, didn’t really see many people, erm”.
1485 “What time would David have gone before you then, because you say he is down there before you?
Reply “No, I was generally there before him”.
1485 “You was there, sorry”.
1485 “And when”.
Reply “We’d leave breakfast at the same time with the kids”.
Reply “But obviously he had to walk back to the Tapas Bar, which was a bit further away from the beach, whereas I was walking to the main reception and that was a bit closer, so once we dropped the kids off, erm, you know, I’d generally be a bit ahead of him”.
1485 “Right. So subsequently you are down the beach together?”
1485 “Was there any other member of your group at the beach?”
1485 “When you first go down?”
Reply “No, one of the days, I think, Matt did a bit of sailing one of the days later on, it wasn’t the Sunday, erm, I would guess either the Tuesday or the Wednesday, erm, I can’t remember which morning, but he didn’t have the lesson, he just wanted to take a boat out, erm, so one of those mornings he, he did take, erm, a catamaran out on his own”.
1485 “Try and put yourself there and try and remember how long you think you stayed down at the beach on the first day, on the Sunday”.
1485 “You know, now you have managed to remember that, you know, the sailing conditions wasn’t that good”.
1485 “Try and remember how long you stayed down there, what time you think you left?”
Reply “Yeah, I think the Sunday, the first day, we did go out on the wind surfers and sort of battled through it a bit, but we were cold and they didn’t have full length wetsuits, I remember I actually wanted to come in, because I was absolutely freezing, erm, a bit before the end, because I think it ended at half eleven, eleven, half eleven. Again, the times of this have just dimmed with, with the period of time that’s passed, erm, and it all sort of depends on when the crèche finishes. I suppose that will all be known anyway. But, we, we generally tried to get out of the water half an hour before the crèche was due to finish and then we’d just get dried and then obviously go and pick them up. So I think that first Sunday we, we came out a bit earlier than we, later on in the week, would have, because we were cold, and just sort of dried off and sat there, but, and then would have gone to pick the kids up, again, I’d generally go and get Scarlet and Dave would then go and get Lily”.
1485 “Uh hu”.
Reply “Erm, and I think it finished at half eleven or twelve, that sort of time. Erm, yeah, so that, that Sunday was slightly different to the others, I think”.
1485 “What would you do after eleven then?”
Reply “Just, as I said, we’d just dry off, get the wetsuits washed and put away”.
1485 “Pick the kids up?”
Reply “Pick the kids up”.
1485 “And then do what?”
Reply “And then go straight back to the apartment, erm, for lunch, we’d feed the kids there”.
1485 “Did anybody else on that day, the first day, come to”.
Reply “On the Sunday”.
1485 “Come to your apartment for lunch?”
Reply “Erm, I’m sure they did, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think every, I think every lunch, bar the Thursday, we had people in the apartment having lunch. Erm, and my mum generally was the sandwich maker, that was a bit of a joke for the week, she’d took it upon herself to do loads of shopping, erm, while we were sort of sailing and stuff, she, she’d go to the Supermarket and get loads of, loads of provisions in and she’d be making piles of baguettes and, erm, yeah, and everyone would generally descend on ours and demolish the lot. Erm, and, yeah, we just all mucked in to cook for the kids, we generally tried to give them a hot, a hot lunch and, you know, people would just donate whatever was in their apartment”.
Reply “So, yeah, I don’t think Sunday was any different in that regard, you know, we ate at ours”.
1485 “When the afternoon draws to a close and then we are going into early evening”.
1485 “Tell me about what you can remember about the early evening, leading up to the time that you put your children to bed?”
Reply “On the Sunday?”
Reply “Phew, again, I, I can’t remember specifically Sunday. Erm, all I can say is, on the whole, we would just go down and play with the kids. I mean, our kids would sleep until sort of half three, often four o’clock, often we were getting them up a bit earlier, walking them up just to have a bit of a playtime before the tea. Erm, but we generally in the evening we would just go down to the play area by the Tapas Bar. Erm, tut, and on a couple of, on a couple of occasions we took them to the beach late afternoon if the weather was nice and I couldn’t tell you”.
Reply “I know on the Thursday we did, that’s what we did, and one of the previous days we did that, erm, we took them to the beach, and I couldn’t tell you which day that was. I don’t think it was Sunday, I would have guessed around Monday, erm, I don’t think it was Sunday. Erm, because we fed, on that occasion, the times we went to the beach, we fed them at the restaurant that was on the beach. Erm, but I have a feeling on the Sunday, because that would have been the first sort of full day if you like, I think we did use the, erm, kids high tea, so we would have been at the Tapas Bar to feed the kids”.
Reply “I can’t, I’m sorry, I can’t be more specific about which days we did what, you know”.
1485 “Well it is a long time ago isn’t it really”.
Reply “And I think plus”.
1485 “Can only do your best”.
Reply “I think what’s confusing the issue is we were there for so long after”.
Reply “And every day was the same”.
1485 “The same”.
Reply “I mean, you know, bar the odd one where you did something different. But the, the routine, you know, was just, I mean, it was groundhog day, it was, everyone said that at the time and I think that’s, it’s just hard to”.
Reply “To go back before that, every day just starts to merge”.
1485 “Uh hu”.
Reply “Erm, but, yeah, that, I’d say more times than not we’d used the kids high tea, there was one occasion, perhaps two, where we didn’t, where we fed them at the beach. Erm, on the Thursday I definitely know we fed them at the beach on that day”.
Reply “A very clear one”.
1485 “So would from high tea then lead to prepare for bed?”
Reply “No, there would be a bit of, a bit more playtime really, erm, you know, because kids tea was quite early, it was about five o’clock, by the time they’d sort of finished, quarter past five. Erm, tut, and then the, as I say, every night they had a tennis sort of social event and it varied each night, they had women’s tennis, they had, erm, beat the instructors tennis, they had where you had to choose an implement to, that the instructors had to play with, you know, a book or something, so there was always something going on by the tennis courts, of which we were all quite keen to partake in. Erm, so as I sort of said earlier really, we, we would sort of all be by the play area, playing with the kids, and then some of us would go on and off the tennis courts and, you know, we just sort of rotate a bit like that. Erm, and I’m trying to think what time the tennis started, I think it was about six o’clock, I think the slot was six until seven every night and I can’t remember which night was which tennis. Erm, I think, I think the Monday or, I think the Monday or the Tuesday was women’s night, erm, the Wednesday I think was the beat the instructors and Thursday was the men’s tennis.
1485 “I know I am being persistent here”.
Reply “I know”.
1485 “But I need to put you back on Sunday because I need the chronological order through the week”.
1485 “I know that you say ‘most days were the same’”.
1485 “And, you know, every day sort of ran into the next virtually”.
1485 “Would you have had a system”.
Reply “For putting them to bed?”
1485 “In relation to the children?”
Reply “Yeah, very much so”.
1485 “Tell me about”.
1485 “If your system is going to be the same every day”.
1485 “Then tell me as early as you can in the holiday”.
1485 “What you did in relation to the children”.
1485 “Before you eventually went out to the Tapas?”
Reply “Yeah, I mean, our night-time was, I think, from the Sunday, it was, it would be much the same. Erm, after the play area they started to tire, erm, you know, around sort of half seven we would, erm, go back and get them bathed, they’d have a bath every night, get them ready for bed, have milk and a story and straight to bed. Erm, depending on who was playing the tennis depended on which two of us would go back, out of me, my mum and Dave, to actually sort the kids out, we didn’t always leave altogether, but, erm, you know, as I say, it would be two out of the three that would come back. Erm, on the Sunday, huh, as I say, I can’t remember who, out of the three of us, would sort the kids. But, erm, if I knew what the tennis nights were, which I’m sure MARK WARNER could find out, that would help actually, because that would probably spark some memory”.
Reply “Erm, of what happened on those different nights. The, erm, you know, our, our bath time and bedtime routine would usually take sort of forty-five minutes and the kids would, would be in bed sort of by quarter past eight, half eight. Erm, they were so exhausted, erm, with everything that was going on, that they were very good at going down. I mean, we were quite amazed that week, you know, normally we’d have a bit of crying out of Scarlet even, but, no, both of them would, were very good at going off. And in terms of going down to the Tapas Bar, Dave usually stayed in the apartment a bit longer than me and my mum, erm, just to make sure that all was quiet before leaving the apartment and Lily sometimes would sort of just chat to herself a bit before going to sleep, so he’d just, erm, you know, and at least on a couple of occasions, stayed behind a bit longer than we did and I’d order a starter for him”.
1485 “Uh hu”.
Reply “Then he’d toddle along, you know, when all was quiet”.
1485 “Did you actually play tennis on the Sunday?”
Reply “Huh, again, it would help to know what night it was”.
Reply “I think we did, I think we all had a knock and I think even the kids, erm, on one of the nights had a knock as well”.
Reply “Ella and Madeleine were, you know, were joining in and, erm, yeah, I mean, as I say, I just can’t remember which night was which. But I think, yeah, most nights we all, unless it was sort of men’s night, obviously the women didn’t join in, but”.
Reply “And for the women’s night the men didn’t join in. But, on the whole, everybody kind of tended to have a bash”.
Reply “Even if it was just for five minutes, erm”.
1485 “When you say ‘all of us’, was all of your group generally”.
Reply “Yeah, yeah”.
1485 “Knocking about?”
1485 “At the tennis?”
Reply “I mean, I think every night we saw all of each other, bar the Thursday, again, that was a different night”.
1485 “It was different”.
Reply “In that Kate wasn’t there with, with the three kids, because we’d all done something different in the early evening, so we were a bit later coming back to the Tapas Bar”.
Reply “And, you know, Madeleine and Sean and Amelie were just absolutely knackered, so, you know, so that was different, but we’d, as I say, the day had gone differently, so”.
1485 “Okay. Are you alright to carry on?”
1485 “Do you want a break or are you okay?”
Reply “No, I’m fine”.
1485 “We have been going for fifty-four minutes”.
1485 “Okay. Let’s talk about then the actual Tapas”.
1485 “Because you mentioned in your earlier recall that when you got there you needed, you had booked it at eight thirty?”
1485 “Every night?”
1485 “Tell me about, tell me as much as you can about why you chose to stay in the Tapas or dined at the Tapas”.
1485 “I appreciate, you know, because the children are asleep or in bed”.
1485 “But tell me the whole procedure regarding the Tapas. You got there on the Saturday and you ordered the big table?”
Reply “Yeah, I think it, we hadn’t really, as I say, well before getting there we hadn’t really realised what the layout of the MARK WARNER was and where, where you, erm, because you had, you had a free meal, you see, included and we didn’t really realise where you could use that. The first night, as I say, we went to Millennium and that wasn’t a great success, erm, just because of the time, you know, for the kids, it was just too, too late for them to be eating”.
Reply “Because I don’t think it started until sort of half six, seven, the actual, you know, the food. Erm, so that wasn’t, it, you know, we were sort of thought well this isn’t going to work particular well sort of taking them there every night. Erm, and so it wasn’t really until the Sunday, I think, that we, we sort of realised you could eat at the Tapas Bar. Erm, and I think, you know, we just looked at it and it, it did feel like you were kind of across, in your back garden, admittedly, a large back garden, but a back garden, erm, and we just thought well that’s great, we can just sort of, you know, easily nip across and check the children on a regular basis and, erm, everyone felt sort of quite happy and comfortable with, with that, and we didn’t really, there wasn’t a lot of sort of humming and hawing that went on over, over that. I mean, I had, I wasn’t aware of the decision to book it for the whole week, I think that had just happened when, when Rachael went to see if it was available for the, for the Sunday night and was told, you know, that you had to sort of book ahead, erm, you know, it wasn’t something that we got together and pre-decided that that’s what we should do, it was just Rachael, I think it was Rachael that had done it and we were all like ‘Oh that’s great, that’s easy, we don’t have to worry about it any more, we’ll just eat there every night’ and that was the last we thought about it”.
Reply “We just thought that was convenient and that would work”.
1485 “So you weren’t actually instrumental in the planning of the evenings entertainment, shall I say?”
Reply “No, no”.
1485 “It was just booked and then you just, obviously yourself and David, went along with it”.
Reply “Yeah, yeah”.
1485 “Because it was easy for”.
Reply “It was just easy for, you know, we were happy with it, you know we were very happy with that. And, as I say, there wasn’t more thought past that, that went into it”.
Reply “We just thought, oh that’s great, we’ve got somewhere to eat, it’s easy, we could keep an eye on the kids, get them to bed when they’re tired and, erm, you know everyone’s a winner really, that’s”.
Reply “That’s what it felt like”.
1485 “Right. Okay. So Sunday was the first time you dined at the Tapas then, was it?”
Reply “Yeah, I mean, just as I’m relaying that to you, I’m thinking, does that fit in, because I was pretty sure we couldn’t get, get in, or maybe it was the Saturday we couldn’t get in and that’s why we went to Millennium and it was the Sunday. I’m pretty sure Sunday through we did eat at the Tapas Bar, so I think that’s the way it must have been, that Rachael had tried to get us in on the Saturday but couldn’t”.
Reply “Erm, because we certainly, the first night I remember certainly we didn’t eat there, at the Tapas”.
1485 “Okay. And in relation, proximity wise, how far away from your apartment is the Tapas?”
Reply “As the, as the crow flies, from, you know, the balcony across to the Tapas, I’d say it’s about thirty metres, twenty-five metres. Erm, to walk it you had to go out the front door, so”.
1485 “Refer to your map”.
Reply “Yeah, I’ll refer to the map. Erm, yeah, you had to sort of come out this side, go down the steps, erm, there was a sort of side path that went outside onto the road, erm, there was, that’s the road, yeah, you had to sort of go across the car park, out into the road, erm, that’s a path, sorry, my diagram is not (laughs)”.
1485 “No, it’s okay, it’s fine, I can read it”.
Reply “Erm, and then there was a sort of little porch entrance to the Tapas area where there was somebody usually on the desk, then you had to walk round through there and round there, so it was, it was a longer way”.
Reply “But as the crow flies it was very close”.
1485 “About thirty metres. Could you actually see the Tapas from your apartment?”
1485 “Could you actually see people in it?”
1485 “And when you were sat at the Tapas could you see your apartment?”
1485 “What could you see of your apartment?”
Reply “Of the apartment, well you could see all the back of it, so you could see the balcony, erm, the French doors and the window, which would be that, erm, window, of our bedroom and that was it really”.
1485 “And, generally speaking, when you went to dinner, this is just a general question, how would you leave your apartment, sorry, how would you leave the state of your apartment, doors, windows?”
Reply “The windows, erm, to be honest, in Lily’s room, we didn’t ever check the window. Erm, another thing that you think of. I mean, when we arrived, we assumed it was sort of locked and closed and the shutter was down. And I think we only ever sort of slightly opened, it was one of these shutters where, erm, sort of graded, erm, you can open it a little bit and it just opens up with a few holes to let a little bit of light in but the whole shutter is still actually down. And that’s all we ever, we never opened the shutter, we just, we’d open it a bit in the morning to let a bit of light in and then shut it, erm, you know in, in the night-time to the point where it would only have a very minimum bit of light coming in”.
Reply “Just so as you could sort of see the room”.
Reply “But it was pretty dark. And the same in, erm, in the other bedroom, we never completely opened the shutter”.
1485 “So is there shutters and windows?”
1485 “So, what about the windows, did you open the windows?”
Reply “Never opened the windows. We never touched the windows, so we never really opened the shutter all the way to open the windows or, or even, as I say, check them. I guess we assume, assumed they were locked”.
Reply “Erm, I did after Madeleine went and they were locked, but”.
1485 “Right. And you say the only one that you used was the patio quite a lot?”
Reply “Yeah, the French doors”.
1485 “The French doors”.
Reply “They were always locked and secured”.
1485 “And locked”.
Reply “And the front door was always locked and secured”.
1485 “Tell me, the door that you leave generally is the door leading out onto the road, is it?”
Reply “To leave the apartment?”
Reply “Yeah, there was only one door”.
1485 “In or out?”
1485 “And what, just tell me about the security of that door?”
Reply “Erm, it had a sort of double lock, erm, mechanism, erm, so it seemed, you know, it seemed very secure. Erm, and there was a security light, they were all on a timer switch, I think if you turned it on there was a light switch, you turned it on and it would stay on for, I don’t know, a minute or so, and then go off automatically. And it seemed, when those lights were off, it was very dark at night-time and it was, it wasn’t very, I mean, again, looking back, you sort of think, well it didn’t feel very nice at night-time, that side of the apartment, because it did feel quite dark and, I think, the wind whistled through the stairwell as well”.
1485 “So, to summarise, in the apartment you have got windows and the shutters but you never actually opened either?”
1485 “Only just, did you”.
Reply “Only enough to get a little bit of light in”.
1485 “But did you actually have to lift the shutter then?”
Reply “No, it had a sort of web type, erm, type system, a pulley system”.
Reply “That was very, it was quite hard actually to open them fully”.
Reply “You had to be quite strong”.
1485 “And how often would you open that, during the daytime or evenings or?”
Reply “Erm, when we got up in the morning, we’d just say open it a bit to let some light in and get ready. But, for us, in our room, if you opened it full you, you know, you had people looking at you so, so we never did that really, we sort of just opened it, as I say, so that more holes were showing”.
Reply “So, you know, it would be very, it’d be like its daylight, as this room is, but it was never open, as I say, the bottom of the shutter was never lifted fully up, erm, and the same for Lily’s room. And then when they went to sleep in the afternoon we just obviously darkened the room again and open it again when they woke up and back down again for bedtime, you know. But really we didn’t, we didn’t have any reason to, to every open them fully”.
1485 “Yeah. Back to the Tapas night”.
1485 “The Sunday night. I know, like you say, I know this is groundhog day”.
1485 “But you referred earlier on to the relaying of people going to check their kids but you didn’t have to?”
1485 “So try and put yourself back to the first night that you actually dined at the Tapas”.
1485 “And try and remember, if you can remember who actually started to go to look at their children first, that it might trigger the rest of your mind to, you know, the order”.
1485 “All I’m after really is order and times”.
1485 “Or distance between”.
Reply “Of the Sunday night?”
1485 “Yeah. Distance between when people went to, you know”.
Reply “I know that, I can only give a general feeling”.
Reply “Because I’ve got no idea who went first and, to be completely honest, I didn’t at the time. Erm, but I’d say on, on the first few nights it all seemed, erm, fairly well spaced, you know, like people going together, that was just a feeling, a general feeling that I’m giving you. Erm, whereas, again, that differed on the Thursday night, in that, it seemed more, erm, out of, people were more out of synch. But I think that’s because we all arrived at different times, whereas, generally, we were a bit more on time at the beginning of the week”.
Reply “Erm, so, you know, people were going, you know, more sort of nine o’clock, then it’d be half nine and, you know, I remember people clock watching, erm, doing that. I didn’t have any idea of time, erm, I wasn’t wearing a watch, I didn’t have a mobile and I wasn’t going up to check our children”.
Reply “So I can only say, you know, I was quite conscious other people were doing that, erm, but I wasn’t part of that. Erm, but, you know, people were very stringent about getting, you know, as I say, clock watching and making sure they went”.
1485 “Would you say that all of the group, bar yourself, generally would go checking?”
Reply “Sorry, the group that were with me?”
Reply “What, you mean, in terms of some people going more than others or?”
1485 “Yeah, generally speaking”.
1485 “I mean, because you have got a party of nine, haven’t you?”
Reply “Yeah, yeah”.
1485 “Would all nine do the checking at some point?”
Reply “No, Dave and I and my mother never checked anybody”.
1485 “Sorry, minus yourselves, yeah”.
Reply “Erm, I guess some people were doing more checking and it tended to be the men doing, again, this is a feeling, it seemed to be they did a lot more sort of upping and downing, erm, tut, you know, than, than the women perhaps. Erm, I mean, Gerry and Russell”.
1485 “Gerry and Russell?”
Reply “Yeah, I don’t know, they, again, a feeling, is they probably did a bit more checking than the girls did. Erm, I couldn’t, you know, I couldn’t be more specific about that. Erm, you know, there was, I’m trying to think if anyone was ill on the Sunday night actually, because we had a bit of illness in the group as well and there were nights, I think, every night there was somebody who was sick actually. And I think Matt might have been ill on, it was either Sunday or the Monday, erm, and, you know, one of those nights he wasn’t there for dinner. And then Rachael, erm, wasn’t there, I think that was the Wednesday night, she was ill, Tuesday or Wednesday. So there were night when, yeah, there was only eight of us at the table (inaudible)”.
Reply “And obviously those nights the partner wouldn’t be going back to check because”.
1485 “They were in there”.
Reply “They were already in there”.
1485 “So who do you think was ill then on the first night, sorry, the second night?”
Reply “I think it was Matt actually, I think he was the first one. Erm, he came down with a bit of diarrhoea or something”.
Reply “Because I think they were blaming the sandwich on the plane, so it must have been soon, soon after. Erm, yeah, and then, as I say, Rachael, I felt that was, you know, more Tuesday or Wednesday time, I don’t think it was Monday”.
Reply “I think it was the night before. I think it was the night before the Wednesday that she was”.
1485 “That Rachael was bad”.
Reply “Yeah, yeah”.
1485 “So you think Matt was bad on the Sunday?”
1485 “So, other than Matt, everybody else was at the table?”
1485 “And what sort of time did you all, because you said earlier on that you were late?”
Reply “Yeah, generally we were a bit (laughs)”.
1485 “Why were you late every night?”
Reply “Because we’re just always late (laughs), everyone will say that, always late for everything. Erm, I don’t know really, we’re always just a bit, a bit lax getting ready maybe”.
Reply “Yeah, I don’t think we were always that late, but, as I say, Dave usually did follow on, and I think me and my mum, on the whole, were, you know, usually sort of between half past eight and twenty to nine, we weren’t outrageously late (laughs)”.
1485 “Would you say that the time that you went down on Sunday is generally the same time that you went down every night?”
Reply “Erm, I was a bit later on the Thursday than normal because I wanted to go for a run. Erm, so, yeah, that was more I think sort of ten to, five to nine, it was, we were late that, that night”.
Reply “But usually, I think, as I say, we were probably the other side of quarter to nine (laughs) getting down, between half past and quarter to, but we were usually the last ones to be arriving at the table”.
1485 “When the dads, you said”.
1485 “Or the husbands if you like”.
1485 “Would go and check. Cast your mind back and think, what was the earliest time of the checking, was anything said or was any observations made or any observations from the table?”
Reply “On the Sunday are you still on?”
Reply “Phew, nothing that is remarkable, erm, that I can recall”.
1485 “Okay. We have laboured Sunday now, you generally can’t remember”.
1485 “Let’s go into Monday. You say that every day generally would follow the same pattern. So try and remember Monday, what was different, what was Monday like? It’s the day after Matt was ill”.
Reply “I mean, I think it was just the same again, you know, for us, as a family, you know, we, none of us were inflicted by any illness, we’d get up, go to breakfast and do the same again. Erm, I can’t remember, I’d be lying if I tried to tell you who was at breakfast, you know, one day as opposed to another really, I mean, you know, it was a large, a large group and generally. All I can say is my mum generally didn’t come to breakfast actually, I haven’t said that, she, erm, once she started her tennis lesson she didn’t really want to eat much more than a slice of toast, so, you know, Monday through, I don’t think she actually came to breakfast with us and just stayed at our apartment. Erm, but, yeah, as I say, I can’t recall anything being particularly different again about Monday”.
Reply “Erm, other than the fact maybe Matt wasn’t there. But, as I say, people were to’ing and fro’ing, people were arriving at different times and leaving at different times”.
Reply “So there was never sort of a set, you know, us all sitting down together for breakfast at a set time”.
1485 “So, following breakfast, you would think that”.
Reply “I think”.
1485 “That the kids would go to the club”.
Reply “Something to mention, which I don’t think I have. Kate and Gerry certainly, that must have been the Sunday morning, they did come for breakfast at Millennium on the first day, we were there and we all pretty much met on that Sunday morning for breakfast and I know they didn’t do that again because they had a hideous time with the twins wanting to walk everywhere at that point and, you know, one would be lurking at the back and the other one walking ahead”.
Reply “And they just found it too, too difficult. So that was the only time they, we saw them at breakfast, that was the first day”.
1485 “So the Monday morning then who would be at breakfast?”
Reply “Erm, everybody else. Erm, so, you know, me, Dave, our children. Erm, Russ and Jane with their kids. I think, again, some mornings one of them would be on their own. Erm, tut, I’m trying to remember the mornings, phew. It was one morning Russ was on his own, erm, with Ella, because Evie hadn’t been particularly, she had a runny nappy or something and had been up in the night and so Jane was sleeping in. I couldn’t tell you what day that was. Erm, and Matt and Rachael were pretty much there every morning, I mean, I think most mornings I saw Matt and Rachael with Grace. Erm, but the others, as I say, Kate and Gerry were never there after the first morning, my mum was never there after the first morning, erm, you know, that’s”.
1485 “Yeah. And it was always, breakfast was always at the Millennium?”
Reply “Yeah, before Madeleine went missing it was, yeah”.
1485 “Right. What activities did you do that day?”
Reply “On the Monday?”
1485 “The second full day, yeah”.
Reply “Erm, again, I think that was a sailing day, erm, so we went along, there was one other chap, I think there was just me, Dave and one other chap for the sailing lesson. So we went straight, straight down to the beach after dropping the kids off. Again, I think we had a full morning, we had a really good, good morning, erm, just pottering about in the, in the boats. And, again, it was pretty cold I think that day and, again, we just had the short wetsuits on, but, erm, and I think we eventually asked to be, to come back in (laughs). Erm, but we would have waited, I think even if we’d come in a bit earlier, we generally waited until it was time to pick the kids up before leaving the beach, we didn’t do anything else with the morning it was all on the beach”.
1485 “Okay. And you would leave the beach and go back to pick up?”
Reply “Yeah, I’d go back, get Scarlet, Dave would go back and get Lily and we’d meet back at the apartment”.
1485 “The kids having afternoon?”
Reply “The kids would have their lunch, you know”.
1485 “What about, again, visitors?”
Reply “Tut, again, I, I’m ninety-nine percent sure, erm, everybody, bar Kate and Gerry and the children, had come for lunch”.
1485 “Anything unusual or anything that you can recall specific about anything said or any actions from anybody?”
Reply “No, erm, I mean, everyone was having a good time, you know, everyone was enjoying what they’d been doing, there was, you know, a definite feeling of, huh, you know, people relaxing a bit, you know, it was the first time, certainly for Dave and I, we’d had any time doing any, erm, sort of adult stuff or, you know, sports on our own since we’ve had our two children”.
1485 “Uh hu”.
Reply “You know, people were enjoying themselves and getting, you know, we didn’t see a lot of Kate and Gerry, I know they, you know, apart from the evenings, they were having a great time with the tennis lessons and, yeah, there was, as I say, a genuine feeling everybody was just relaxing into it and having a nice time and the kids were having a whale of a time, they were just loving being altogether and, you know, we always had them, they had their own lunch round the table and, you know, they were, they were just all getting on very well and having a good time”.
1485 “The kids got on well together did they?”
1485 “And what about you adults?”
Reply “Very well. I mean, we’ve, we’ve, we’re all pretty laid back people, we’ve all known each other, I mean, you know, some people don’t know each other so well, Matt and Rachael didn’t know maybe Kate and Gerry quite so well, but, erm, you know, Russ and Jane we’ve known for donkeys years and, you know, Russ used to share a house when Dave and him were Junior Doctors and I lived there as well with another chap, so, you know, we’ve got a lot of history altogether, erm, you know, we all get on very well together, been on holidays together, we’ve never had any problems, no”.
1485 “Okay. So let’s move on to the Monday evening, early evening. I am assuming that the day has gone, like you have said, the same as any other day”.
1485 “And it comes to the time where you have high tea”.
1485 “Tell me about, try and put yourself back onto Monday and tell me what happened Monday, leading up to the time that you go to dinner?”
Reply “This is when I find it hard, because I know we did go to the beach on one of those nights, and I can’t tell you whether it’s Monday or Tuesday, erm, I’d say, I would assume it was one or the other, so. I don’t know whether they asked me that in my first statement, what we did in the preceding days, but that, that is something I would ask to, you know, to see”.
1485 “Okay, fine”.
Reply “Because my memory would have been accurate then and I knew what I’d done on each day”.
1485 “Yeah. Right. I have actually got your statement here”.
1485 “It is a translated statement but it doesn’t really tell me a great deal”.
Reply “I know”.
1485 “In relation to your movements, if I am honest”.
1485 “I mean, which is why I have left”.
Reply “I can’t remember being asked particularly much”.
Reply “But what’s annoying is, I mean, I think all of us did piece together, erm, movements, erm”.
1485 “You did a timeline, didn’t you?”
Reply “Yeah, well we did that, but not only that, we were all sort of talking, well what were we doing that day, what were we doing that day, looking for, you know, anything that might, erm, in retrospect, be suspicious, or seeing, you know, people we’d seen or met, so we did sort of do that at the time, but obviously if it’s not in my statement I wasn’t asked it. But I’m just trying to think if (inaudible). To be honest, if you wanted that information, it would help to know from MARK WARNER what nights were what, you know, what nights were quiz nights, because that sort of helps to spark the memories of the movements”.
Reply “Otherwise I can’t be sure what those nights were. There was a quiz night one night, there was certain tennis events and those are some of things that would help to know and sort of work out”.
Reply “But off the top of my head, I couldn’t, I couldn’t swear that Monday was the night we had high tea or went to the beach, erm, so one of those nights we would have gone to the beach with the kids”.
1485 “I have got here a little bit of a routine which you may have done at the time”.
1485 “And how it highlights, sort of generalises your time on holiday”.
1485 “Is between eight fifteen and eight thirty, breakfast and then the kids to kids club. Twelve thirty to one o’clock, children collected, lunch in the apartment, sometimes other children, then your children would sleep after lunch”.
1485 “Between one thirty and four o’clock, swimming pool or tennis club with children and husband”.
Reply “Well our kids never went to kids club in the afternoon”.
Reply “They would have been sleeping then, so that’s wrong”.
1485 “That is right, yeah, so, I don’t know how fairly, you know, this was done from yourself, but it was”.
Reply “Well I would have never said that”.
1485 “In fact it is June. I think it was June it was done”.
Reply “June, that’s not right either”.
1485 “And then it says between eighteen hundred to nineteen hundred, returned to the apartment, bath time, bedtime, then to restaurant for dinner”.
Reply “Umm. I don’t agree with that statement”.
1485 “You don’t?”
Reply “I mean, if you are saying one thirty until four, I mean, our children were asleep during those hours”.
1485 “Let me just show you”.
1485 “It is not your statement”.
1485 “It just basically outlines a bit of an overview of yourself”.
1485 “Which you agree all that is correct?”
Reply “(PAYNE read through the statement). Well that, it just, I don’t know where that’s come from. I mean, one of us may have gone out to the swimming pool or tennis court and that would vary from day to day, erm, you know, we didn’t necessarily all sit in the apartment. But, if I had said that, I think, on the whole, I sat on the apartment in the afternoon”.
1485 “Alright then”.
Reply “Erm, my mum, on a couple, would have been on the balcony and me maybe by the pool having a chat”.
Reply “So, I suppose, it depends how you read that really, I suppose”.
1485 “Right. Okay. So you say you are not sure of what day you went down to the beach?”
1485 “Could have been Monday could have been Tuesday”
1485 “But, in any event, what would you have done down at the beach and how long would you have stayed?”
Reply “Erm, we’d just play, you know, in the surf basically with the kids paddling really. Erm, it wasn’t any warmer for anything more than that really”.
1485 “There is a play area, isn’t there?”
Reply “Yeah, outside the restaurant there is sort of swings and, you know, a bit of a play area, so, you know, they, you know, you could have a drink while they played. And, again, I’m finding it really hard now to say, you know, ‘a’ what night it was that we went down there and ‘b’ if we actually ate a meal before Thursday there. We did, we went to this restaurant so many times after Madeleine went missing with the kids. Again, you know, as I say, every day was very similar, erm, and we did the same things so many times, I just find it hard to say to you I definitely”.
1485 “Yeah. You have managed to remember quite a lot actually”.
1485 “You probably don’t think you have but you have managed to remember quite a lot”.
Reply “But, you know, I think, I, my feelings are that we, one of those nights we’d have stayed on and fed the kids and gave them tea there rather than dragging them back for high tea, erm, you know. But the others might remember that better and definitely”.
Reply “And I accept that they may well be right. Erm, tut, but, yeah, it was, it was a nice little restaurant, so you could sit and there was some wooden, erm, sort of balcony type, where you could just sit and have a drink and the kids could play and eat ice cream”.
Reply “And we’d stay, stay there until it was ready to go back for, erm, either tennis or bed really”.
1485 “Okay. So the time that you would have got back to your apartment”.
1485 “Do you agree with this time?”
Reply “Yeah, again”.
1485 “Round about seven, between six and seven, you think?”
Reply “I mean, that, that seems a bit earlier than I would say now, but that might be right, you know. I, I mean, I guess, judging by the fact we had them in bed by half eight, I’m just trying to work backwards, I mean, I would have felt it was more sort of seven o’clock by the time we were bathing them and thinking about getting them to bed, you know, so maybe between half six and seven I would say now we would do that”.
1485 “And when you was down at the beach”.
1485 “Early, when I say ‘early in the week’, I am trying to sort of pin you down to differentiate between the, you know, the Monday or the Tuesday”.
1485 “Was any of your group on the beach with you?”
Reply “Erm, tut, I mean, this is what I’ve got to differentiate from, I can remember the Thursday very well, who was with me and who wasn’t, I think because I’d gone through that more. Erm, I’m trying to think if Kate and Gerry did and I can’t recall. I mean, on the whole, we didn’t see a lot of them until the evening, we didn’t see a lot of the kids. Erm, so I don’t, I don’t think they did join us. It tended to be more sort of Matt, Rachael and Russ and Jane”.
Reply “Erm, I, I find it really hard to recall”.
1485 “It is tough, isn’t it?”
Reply “Yeah, it’s very tough and, as I say, it’s just, it’s so confusing because we did so many times the same thing, afterwards as well, often with Kate afterwards I would go down to the beach with the kids, erm, that sort of time of day, erm”.
1485 “Just ease your mind slightly then and we will move on to, you have bathed the kids because it is the same every night”.
1485 “So the Monday night you will have bathed the kids as usual”.
1485 “Tell me what happened up until you go into the Tapas?”
Reply “Sort of between?”
1485 “Between bathing the kids and going to the Tapas on the Monday”.
Reply “Erm, again, some nights we went for runs. Erm, could I tell you whether we went for one on Monday, no”.
1485 “Could you tell me who you went with?”
Reply “Erm, Dave and I. Erm, mum would sort of look after the kids and, you know, I think at least once or twice Dave and I went for a run, erm, down by the beach, erm”.
1485 “Any of the group down there?”
Reply “Erm, no. God, this is hard. We went for lots of runs before and after, sometimes with Matt. I did one with Matt and Dave, I can’t remember if that was before Madeleine went missing or after, erm, I think before. Everyone was into running. Rachael did runs, Kate did runs, often they did, Kate was mad, often would go out early when it was sort of hotter, I can’t understand that, but (laughs), erm, and Rachael I’m aware went for runs and Jane as well. But, in terms of going with people, Dave and I, erm, definitely went together, on other nights we went alone and on one occasion went with Matt and I think that was probably before Madeleine went missing, before the Thursday night”.
1485 “But you can’t be sure whether that was Monday?”
Reply “I can’t be sure if that was Monday”.
1485 “Okay. How about, were you late on the Monday for the Tapas?”
Reply “I would, I would have said we were late, by my standards (laughs)”.
1485 “What time do you think?”
Reply “We were probably within ten minutes of half past eight, I don’t recall being any later”.
1485 “Right (inaudible). Was everybody else there?”
Reply “On the Monday night, erm, I think so, yeah. I mean, I think, usually, by the time we got there, there were at least two other couples, you know, occasionally we might have been the third couple, erm, rather than the last to arrive, but, yeah, and nobody was ever late, I mean, we all generally got to the table within twenty minutes of each other”.
Reply “Erm, so there was never anything really outstanding about the previous nights”.
1485 “And would you pass anybody on the way to the Tapas?”
Reply “Erm, tut, no, erm, not that I’d”.
1485 “Any of the group perhaps going to do their checks or?”
Reply “No, because generally, as I say, we, the early part of the week, we were generally all within the same sort of time bracket, so, yeah, we didn’t, on previous nights, see anybody coming back. Erm, Thursday night was different, we did, we saw Matt, but on previous nights, no, generally we’d go down, go straight to the table. Erm, you know, when we arrived at the Tapas there were usually some other couples eating and they would normally be almost sort of halfway through getting to the end of their meal by the time we were starting, we tended to be seemingly later than most, erm, having our meals. Erm, but in terms of me passing people on the way down, again, it seemed, it always seemed very quiet and nobody about when we were going down”.
1485 “And when you, again, I have got to go back to it, because I think it is important, try and remember if there was any sort of order in which parents went to check their children on the Monday night?”
Reply “I mean, there was never a set order about any of it, erm, you know”.
1485 “Yeah, but what I mean is, if you recollect seeing Matt go and then”.
1485 “You said that you had saw, most of the time it was the men who”.
Reply “I couldn’t have told you the following day though, that sort of thing. I mean, you’re aware it’s happening”.
Reply “But I just think, because you’re not party to the same sort of process everyone else is doing, you know, erm, I couldn’t tell you. And I’ve never really gone to examine those nights, I suppose, in my head, earlier on, so, erm, to say now I’d be totally guessing, I really couldn’t tell you”.
1485 “Okay. Alright. I am going to close it shortly”.
1485 “Just so we can have a bit of a break”.
1485 “And for you to try and get your brain back”.
1485 “But I just want to bottom off Monday night. Can you remember anything at all about the meal, the conversation, where you sat and what time you eventually went to bed?”
Reply “Tut, erm, there was a quiz night, I don’t know whether that was Monday night, that was, phew, I cant, it’s just so hard now. I think there was one, potentially two, kind of quiz nights, so that might be Monday and Wednesday, because they were definitely not in a row. Erm, again, you’d have to sort of check on that, I don’t know. So, yeah, that, that would have, that, again, was just a bit of banter, the quiz night, erm, so we all joined in that and lost. Erm, I don’t know, generally we all sort of got back, yeah, we were usually the last there, just I think because we were eating later. Erm, we all generally went back at the same time, you know, together, erm, on the Monday at least”.
1485 “Anybody go back for a nightcap or anything like that?”
Reply “To each other’s apartments?”
1485 “Apartments, yeah”.
Reply “No, no. No, generally we were all pretty knackered and went back and went to bed. I think the Wednesday night we’d stayed out and had a nightcap inside the, erm, the bar area, because it was quite cold outside, and we had a coffee, we went inside and had a coffee and, erm, a liqueur, but I’m pretty sure that was the Wednesday”.
1485 “What time do you think you would have gone to bed on the Monday?”
Reply “I think it was pretty much around midnight for the, for those earlier nights, I don’t think we saw the other side of midnight”.
1485 “Okay. I am going to give your brain a rest for the time being, alright?”
1485 “I will switch the video off and you can go and have a bit of a drink and a”.
Reply “A jammy dodger”.
1485 “A jammy dodger and we will resume again in about fifty minutes, alright?”
Reply “Yeah, okay”.
1485 “Okay. I make the time ten twenty-five and it is time to stop”.