Date of Interview: 09.04.08
Time Commenced: 1023 hours
Time Concluded: 1219 hours
1578 “Okay we’ll start again, the time is ten twenty three am and that’s on Wednesday the ninth of April, two thousand and eight. We’re in an interview room at Leicestershire Police Force Headquarters. I’m DC 1578 Andrew GIERC from the Leicestershire Major Crime Unit. Would you kindly introduce yourself by giving us your full name and date of birth please”?
Reply “Rachael Mariamma Jean MAMPILLY and date of birth is the eleventh of the eleventh, seventy”.
1578 “Thank you. What’s your home address please”?
Reply “Number twenty Sunderland Gardens, London SW14 8DB”.
1578 “Thanks. Okay, just as an introduction, you’re here voluntarily as a significant witness to assist in the Portuguese investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine Beth McCANN, which occurred on Thursday the third of May, two thousand and seven in Portugal. You’ve been given a letter of introduction by Detective Superintendent Stuart PRIOR, do you have any, any issues in respect of, of that letter”?
Reply “Mmm no”.
1578 “Okay. This interview’s being recorded, video recorded and monitored by Officers next door from Leicestershire Police and also the Portuguese Authorities”.
Reply “Mmm mmm”.
1578 “And the purpose of the video recording is to maintain accuracy and integrity of the enquiry really”.
Reply “Mmm yeah”.
1578 “I would ask that when you answer questions, you should really concentrate as hard as possible”.
1578 “And take as long as you like and tell us everything”.
Reply “Mmm mmm”.
1578 “Please don’t leave anything out, however trivial it may appear to yourself”.
Reply “Mmm okay”.
1578 “And if you don’t understand any questions, please ask and I’ll try and explain and if you need a break at all”.
1578 “Just let me know. The interview will be in a number of phases, firstly I’d like you to recall and explain the events leading up to the holiday, the friendship within the group”.
Reply “Mmm mmm”.
1578 “And who was in the group, how it was organised”.
Reply “Mmm right”.
1578 “Secondly, we’d like you to recall the, the erm, the whole of the holiday period in summary”.
Reply “Mmm mmm”.
1578 “If there was a regular regime”.
1578 “And, and that will include a detailed account of obviously the Thursday evening”.
1578 “When Madeleine disappeared. There will then be a number of specific questions that the Portuguese Authorities wishes to ask”.
Reply “Mmm mmm”.
1578 “And also a list of questions from Gerry and Kate”.
1578 “And then finally we’ll cover any issues raised by the monitoring Officers”.
1578 “So let’s go into phase one then, can you describe the, the make up of the group please and how you’re all friends and”?
1578 “Associated and so forth”?
Reply “Erm well Matt, Matt worked with Gerry at the Glenfield, I don’t know when it was though, I mean before, before Matt and I were married anyway , erm so that’s how, that’s how he knew Gerry and Matt lived with erm Russell and Dave, because they were all medical students in Leicester. Erm and then obviously everyone sort of ended up getting married to various people, I mean Fiona’s a Doctor, she married Dave, Russell and Jane got together, erm Gerry and Kate were married but I didn’t know them really until we met at Dave and Fiona’s wedding in Italy erm in two thousand and erm two thousand and three, erm well it was just, it was when a few months after Madeleine was born, so erm that’s right isn’t it, two thousand and three, September, two thousand and three was their wedding and Dave and Fi got married in Italy and Matt and I shared a, sort of an apartment with Gerry and Kate and Madeleine, who was about three or four months then and you know with various other people, so that’s when I first met Gerry and Kate, erm and then erm, I mean, we didn’t really, we’d see Gerry and Kate at sort of Dave and Fi’s or, but we didn’t really see them you know without, you know without Dave and Fi there really because they were sort of friends through them”.
Reply “Erm and then there was erm, the next time I really sort of properly remember seeing them before we went on holiday, was at Dave’s fortieth, which was last April, erm oh, last April, no, no, erm was that last year, yeah it must have been, erm and then, no I don’t think it was last year, it must have been the year before, year before last Dave’s fortieth, erm and then basically we all as a group, except Gerry and Kate went on holiday in September, two thousand and six erm to Greece erm and then basically decided to do another holiday in May last year, April, May, erm and just sort of the additions to the group then were Gerry and Kate and the children obviously, erm is that enough detail on how we know each other”?
1578 “Whose idea was, was it to go on holiday as a group to Portugal”?
Reply “Erm I think it was either Dave or Gerry I think suggested it, erm”.
1578 “Do you know who arranged the holiday”?
Reply “Dave did erm cos we’d all, we’d all done Mark WARNER holidays before sort of separately, that was the Portuguese holiday was the fourth Mark WARNER holiday that Matt and I had done and we did a couple before Grace was born and then we did one with her, erm and then our September holiday in Greece in two thousand and six, you know was just so good because of all the kids and had a great time, it wasn’t Mark WARNER, erm then we decided that it would be good to go as a group again, as again and I think Gerry just kind of said that he had holiday and is anyone interested in going and David said, you know Dave emailed round and erm kind of made the suggestion and then he, he was responsible for organising it”.
Reply “Erm so he did all the bookings and things, yeah cos everything came to their house and then Dave and Fi forwarded stuff to us, tickets and that sort of thing”.
1578 “So the make up of the group then was”?
Reply “Erm well Matt and myself and Grace erm Russell, Jane and their two children Ella and Evie, erm Dave and Fi and their two children Lilly and Scarlet and Gerry and Kate and their children Madeleine and Sean and Amelie, oh and, and then Diane erm Fiona’s mum was coming too”.
1578 “Okay so nine adults”?
Reply “So nine, nine adults, eight children”.
1578 “Eight children. Were you aware of any hierarchy within the group at all”?
1578 “Within the circle of friends”?
Reply “No we’re all sort of very, you know very even, everyone on the same level erm”.
1578 “Was there a particular reason for example that, that David booked the holiday, arranged it and booked it”?
Reply “No erm I think, you know he made the suggestion so it was kind of left up to him to organise it, not for any particular reason erm when he puts his mind to things, he’s quite good at organising things like that (inaudible)”.
Reply “No, I mean no reason really”.
1578 “So you live in London and you travelled from which Airport”?
Reply “Gatwick erm Russell and Jane and their children came to stay with us on the Friday night and then we’d all, it was, it was all a bit weird actually cos it was almost like the holiday should never have happened in the first place erm because Ella was ill the week before we went, erm she had an abscess on her foot that she had to go into Hospital and have removed and so Russell and Jane didn’t know whether they’d be able to come and so it was, it was literally a very last minute thing for them, erm we kind of didn’t really know ‘til the Friday morning whether they were gonna come or not, erm cos of Ella’s foot, so anyway but they did and they came up to us on Friday night and we’d ordered taxis, or a taxi for the morning to take us to the Airport and the flight was about, I think the flight might have been about eight o’clock erm and we’d ordered a taxi and made it really clear that there were four adults and three children, you know plus all the luggage, so it would have to be a mini bus or something like that and then when the taxi turned up in the morning, it was just an estate car, well like there’s no way we can get in that, erm so it was a bit panic stations and we both had to go in separate car, you know we took our own cars to the Airport and erm on the way, we’re trying to book the, you know that valet parking, so that you just turn up and get out and they take your car off, erm I remember being on the phone going, travelling to the Airport and most of them not being able, but we eventually got through to one which we’d used before quite a lot, erm and so they could, they could sort us out, so we did kind of get there in time and everything in the end, erm but that kind of didn’t seem to be a very good start to the holiday in the first place, erm and, and then we, the flight and everything was fine erm talked to a few people on the plane who were also going to the same resort, erm yeah and it was just, it was weird the way it was, cos then Matt was ill the first day and it was kind of, I don’t know, if you look, you know with hindsight, there were lots of things that happened that kind of, you just thought oh well, I don’t know, maybe the holiday should never have happened in the first place you know, if we hadn’t have gone, erm everyone ended up being ill at some stage and, and you think you know, that’s never happened before erm you know, none of us are ever ill”.
1578 “Just talk us through, talk us through the journey then from the Airport, over, over to, to the apartment”?
Reply “Erm it was just on a coach, erm with some of the Mark WARNER staff, erm they kind of came round and talked about child care and we had various forms to fill in”.
1578 “Sorry, were there any problems with the flight for example”?
Reply “No, mmm no I don’t think so, think it was all fine”.
1578 “No issues with, with the flight out there”?
1578 “And the transfers and”?
Reply “No, it was all, it all went quite smoothly, erm then we just got on a coach when we got there, got to the Airport”.
Reply “Erm and they dished out you know maps of the resort and where our rooms were and I think the keys were in those envelopes as well, you know the rooms were pre allocated erm”.
1578 “So prior to arrival then at the resort, you knew which apartment you were in”?
Reply “Yes, yeah”.
1578 “Which apartment were you in”?
Reply “Erm 5B, which was next, which, erm when we made the booking, or when Dave made the booking, erm we, there was a bit of erm, I don’t know, there was a bit of aggro about the rooms or some, something, or about the price, I can’t remember what it was and then there was an email that Matt had sent, which I’m sure Russell mentioned, erm kind of which he’d meant just to send to like Dave and Russell but had gone actually back to the Mark WARNER representative as well, erm sort of being slightly derogatory I think and it was oops you know it shouldn’t have gone there, erm and we’d kind of demanded to have all our rooms together. Basically I think, I mean Dave had chosen the resort and hadn’t really read the small print, cos we assumed it was going to be like every other Mark WARNER resort where you’re in a compound and you know that’s all sort of gated off but erm this was different, it was erm, it was basically the village and the apartments were dotted all over the place, so you know we could have been anywhere, and could have been completely separate from each other, so we asked if we could, you know if they could really make sure that we were all together because otherwise erm it would mean you know we couldn’t really have had dinner together or anything like that, if somebody was, you know we were kind of concerned about you know being at one end of the village and somebody was at the other”.
Reply “Then, and the thing that we did realise at this time of this email erm, is that there was no erm sort of baby listening, which is what we had done it at other Mark WARNER resorts, where the nannies go round and listen every fifteen minutes at the door, erm but because it was a village and not sort of all in a compound, they didn’t do that, so you know that meant we either had to be, we either had to take the kids with us to dinner, or erm you know, find some way of sort of doing baby listening ourselves, erm and that was partly why we requested you know us all to have the apartments all together”.
1578 “And who requested that”?
Reply “Well I think, I mean it was, I think it was Dave or, or and there were various emails between Dave and Matt and Russell, I wasn’t, I never seemed to be on the email so erm but I think yeah when it, when we realised there was no baby listening and that you know, potentially we could all be spread all over the place, erm we asked if they could make sure that we’d be together, erm and we were actually so, all the apartments were close”.
1578 “So transfer then from the Airport to the apartments, any issues there at all”?
Reply “No, no, just on the coach, can’t remember if it took, I think maybe an hour sort of thing, erm”.
1578 “And you were with”?
Reply “We were with Russell and Jane”.
1578 “Russell and Jane and their two children”?
1578 “So there were six adults, three children”?
Reply “Erm four adults, three children”.
1578 “Sorry yes four adults, three children”.
Reply “And erm yeah, just the coach and that was fine, got all the details about the rooms and the keys I think as well (inaudible), I think, we certainly got the number of the apartment, I can’t remember whether the keys were in that envelope as well, or whether we had to kind of go to the Reception and get the key when we arrived, erm yeah, I mean the coach dropped us off at the Reception, erm so we might have actually picked up the key at the Reception but we knew what apartment we were gonna be in while we were on the coach, with all the paperwork that they gave us”.
1578 “In the welcome pack”?
Reply “Yeah, mmm yeah”.
1578 “Okay. So what time would you have arrived at the resort”?
Reply “Erm I think it was early afternoon, perhaps about two-ish, something like that”.
1578 “This is on Saturday”?
Reply “This is on the Saturday”.
1578 “The twenty eighth of April”?
1578 “Two thousand and seven”?
Reply “Yeah erm”.
1578 “So talk us through what you did”?
Reply “Erm we must have had something to eat, we had sandwiches on the plane, erm we arrived, I mean we would have put Grace down for a sleep, erm yeah I mean I can’t remember now whether we did or not but you know she did have a sleep every day, so we would have put her down and it would have been the right sort of time in terms of (inaudible) she normally sleeps from sort of one ‘til three, that would have been about right, got there about two, erm and I think you know, just sort of unpacked in the apartment and sorted ourselves out and then erm, and then I think Gerry and Kate and Dave and Fi and Diane arrived with all the children maybe about four-ish, cos they’d flown from East Midlands erm and got a taxi from the Airport to Praia Da Luz, erm so I think, I think I remember them arriving perhaps when Grace had just woken up or was about to wake up, erm and then at five o’clock there was erm you know a welcome talk erm in the Tapas Bar and we went down to that”.
1578 “All of you”?
1578 “As a group”?
Reply “Yeah erm and I mean that probably lasted about twenty minutes or around half an hour, erm and I think, I mean there was, there was a play, there was a play area just by the Tapas Bar, so I think the children probably just played there a bit afterwards, erm and then dinner that night was at the Millennium Restaurant, which was you know sort of about a ten minute walk from where our apart, apartments were, erm I think dinner there that night was gonna start at either six or six thirty, maybe six thirty and we all trooped up there then for dinner, erm so yeah I think we just hung around, you know sort of by the pool and on the recreation area after the talk”.
1578 “So before we move on to your routine, a summary of your routine through the week”.
1578 “Let’s just cover the apartment allocation”.
Reply “Mmm mmm”.
1578 “Just for the benefit of the tape”.
Reply “Yeah, yeah”.
1578 “You’re in 5B”.
Reply “Yeah we’re in 5B, erm Gerry and Kate and Sean and Amelie and Madeleine were in 5A, so they were on the end, then we were next to them”.
Reply “Our apartment only had one bedroom, so basically the bedroom that Matt and I and Grace slept in, was the one next to the one that Madeleine was taken from, erm which is always the one that’s shown actually, when they’ve sort of flashed up on TV, erm and then there was kind of a, a dip in the courtyard, there was a space and the courtyard there, 5C was empty, Russell and Jane and Ella and Evie were in 5D, and then Dave and Fi and Diane and Lilly and Scarlet were upstairs in, I don’t know what, was that 5 something, probably 5, 5H or I or, but anyway they were on the floor above, basically above erm above Russell and Jane’s apartment pretty much I think”.
1578 “Just describe the, very briefly the layout of your apartment, 5B”?
1578 “Access and so forth and what it was like inside”?
Reply “Yeah okay. Well when you went in the front door, which was, you came to that through the car park of the main road”.
Reply “Erm in the front door was the corridor here, it was a corridor here, the bedroom erm, the bedroom was kind of basically behind the front door and then the first room on the left off the corridor is the bathroom, then opposite that, there’s a door into the kitchen and then basically the sort of lounge dining area bit was open plan and then there were patio doors at the end and a balcony and then sort of a bit of a garden and then a gate out onto a path that ran along the back of the apartments”.
1578 “Okay. Yourself and Matthew obviously slept in the bedroom I take it”?
Reply “Yes and Grace as well actually”.
1578 “And what about Grace”?
Reply “She, yeah because erm, we didn’t, we don’t really like sleeping in the same room as her but there wasn’t really nowhere else to put her cos you know, obviously she was going to bed at seven thirty and then we’d have had to kind of hide in the bathroom or something for the rest of the night, so we put, yeah she slept in our room as well erm”.
1578 “Okay and the, that would have overlooked which side”?
Reply “That overlooked the car park side”.
Reply “There was, there was kind of one big shutter I think and then a narrower one it you were looking out, erm to the car park, there was a wide shutter here and then there was a narrow one, erm window and shutters”.
1578 “In terms of entry and exit to your apartment, which entry or exit did you most frequently use”?
Reply “We used the front door, I mean if we were just sort of all popping out and just quickly to the pool, we’d go out the patio doors and just leave them unlocked, erm cos you couldn’t lock them from the outside but I mean certainly at night when we went to dinner and if we were gonna be off for a couple of hours, then we went out the front door and you could you know, double lock it so”.
Reply “Erm yeah so that’s what we did”.
1578 “Okay. If we can now move on to a summary of your routine”.
Reply “Mmm mmm”.
1578 “Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday”?
Reply “Okay erm”.
1578 “If you had a routine of course”.
Reply “Yeah I mean we did in terms of lunch cos yeah that other thing, that Mark WARNER resort is that it was only half board, so we had to find our own lunch, cos all the other resorts were you know, you get all your meals, erm so the Saturday night we had dinner at the Millennium, which was all you know, which was quite chaotic because there were eight, you know eight kids and nine adults erm it was like erm, we don’t really want to be doing this every night, erm and it, well Matt, Matt wasn’t well that night, he threw up a few times, erm so on the Sunday, he stayed in bed for quite a bit of the morning I think, erm and I can’t, what did we do on the Sunday, erm, er, well you know Grace went to crèche in the morning erm with Ella and Evie, Lilly and Scarlet, well all the kids went to crèche, erm but there were Madeleine and Ella because they’re older went to a different, they went down, their crèche was sort of near the main reception of the Ocean Club, whereas the rest of them, there was Ella, Madeleine and Ella were down in the main reception of the Ocean Club and so was Scarlet, cos the sort of baby crèche was down there as well and then the rest of them were with the crèche pretty much just behind the Tapas Bar, so they were all in there. So Grace went to crèche erm, can’t remember what I did, probably tried to get some sun, it was quite, a bit chilly though but erm, erm and then erm we would have picked up Grace from crèche at sort of twelve, half twelve I think and then that first day I think we just had lunch sort of in the Tapas but you know the menu wasn’t really that suitable for your kids, erm and then took her back to the room to have a sleep, erm and then while she slept you know, we just kind of read outside on the, on the balcony on the veranda, erm that morning, there might have been some sort of tennis, you know social I think perhaps”.
1578 “This is on the Sunday”?
Reply “On the Sunday, erm, might yeah, maybe tennis, social and then you know you decided whether you wanted to do tennis lessons or, that sort of thing and then, I think that must have been the Sunday, I remember sort of having a bit of a hit afterwards with Gerry and Kate and I think Jane, erm but it was just, yeah really just seeing what you know activities there were and what we might want to do for the rest of the week, erm and then, I mean Grace was asleep for about two hours, so she would get up about half three, four o’clock and then I think we just went to the pool, we discovered it was pretty cold and so she wasn’t that keen on swimming, neither was I, erm and I think Matt was up by that stage, think he came out in the afternoon, erm and then we’d booked to eat in the Tapas Bar that night because The Millennium had just been one kind of a bit of trek and a bit too stressful with all the kids and it was, thought it would be quite nice to have dinner by ourselves, so erm I booked a table for eight thirty in the Tapas for us and we just thought we’d do our own sort of baby listening as you know we, well you know if we’d been in another Mark WARNER resort that’s what would have happened”.
1578 “When you say us, who do you mean”?
Reply “As a group so”.
1578 “The whole group”?
Reply “Yeah. So basically we’d go and have dinner and then we’d sort of run back you know every fifteen twenty minutes and have a listen at the door and make sure nobody’s screaming their head off”.
1578 “So you, you booked the table on the Sunday evening”?
Reply “On the Sunday yes”.
1578 “For eight thirty”?
1578 “For nine adults”?
Reply “Yeah, yeah, erm so the children had tea at the sort of, there’s a little, the little area near the Tapas Bar, they had high tea there all the kids not just ours, they had tea there at about quarter to five, erm and then afterwards I think we just played in the recreation area and then you know Grace, I mean you know she’s normally in bed by half seven, so we kind of stuck to the same sort of times as we did in the UK. Got her down and then had showers and kind of ready to go down to the table for eight thirty, erm yeah and then went down there for dinner, erm we’d take turns going back to, to the room to check”.
1578 “So what sort of arrangements did you come to as a group in respect of checking on the children”?
Reply “That we would just check our own children basically, erm”.
1578 “How often”?
Reply “Erm about sort of every twenty minutes, I mean we kind of, I mean Gerry and Kate were very good about you know doing it every twenty minutes, I think they must have been a bit oh okay, think it’s about twenty minutes so we’ll, we’ll go and have a look and you know so everyone went at different times, it wasn’t like everyone suddenly got up to go and check, erm”.
1578 “Did you have any monitoring devices yourself”?
Reply “No, no, but on that Sunday night, I don’t, Matt didn’t come to dinner on the Sunday with being sick the night before, so he didn’t, he just stayed in the apartment, so I didn’t actually have to go back and check at all on the Sunday”.
1578 “But there were evenings during the holiday when both of you”?
1578 “Were out”?
1578 “And Grace was in the apartment”?
1578 “And when Grace was in the apartment, would you leave any access insecure”?
Reply “No, the patio doors were locked and the front door was double locked yeah”.
Reply “I mean you know, it wasn’t ‘til, I mean we hadn’t checked whether the windows were locked or anything, you know it wasn’t ‘til, until Madeleine disappeared that we actually checked that the windows were locked cos I know which you know we should have done I suppose but”.
1578 “What do you mean by locked”?
Reply “Well locked from the inside cos you”.
1578 “Locked or lockable”?
Reply “Well locked, I mean we, you kind of assumed that they were cos the shutters were down and erm, then we left the shutters down the whole time, we didn’t bother to open them, erm not even in the day, erm”.
1578 “How was the window locked”?
Reply “Oh it just had some sort of little catch erm but you know it was just when Madeleine disappeared, we had a thinking well you know, could a cleaner or somebody from the inside have just kind of left it unlocked for that day, erm you know so that somebody coming in at night, could come in from the outside by lifting up the shutters and opening the window, you know if they’d come in from the, you know through the window, cos we could never really work out why the shutters were up and the window was open, if I don’t know, no it was just our theories of how somebody might have got in, erm you know, if they’d come in the patio door, why would they have gone out the window, I’m sure that they could have just gone back out that way, or they could have even just gone out the front door, erm which would have been much easier, erm so one of the, our theories for why the window and the shutters were open, were that you know, they came in that way and then but that would mean obviously that the window would have had to have been unlocked, you know either all week, or sometime during the day you know, that’s kind of a bit of a risky thing to do because actually you know, if, if they had been checked before the children went to bed and you know Gerry and Kate had found the window unlocked, then they would have locked it and then that would have kind of scuppered anyone’s plans for coming in that way”.
1578 “The locking mechanism on the window, was that key operated, or just manually”?
Reply “No I think it was just like a little catch that sort of went, it was a sliding window erm, there might have been a button on the handle, erm yeah it might have been a button on the, on the handle and the window slid back”.
1578 “So that’s, that’s Sunday”.
Reply “That’s Sunday, erm so Monday I mean Matt, Matt was better, erm were we, can’t remember what we did particularly, erm we played tennis a bit, we didn’t have any group lessons Matt and I, we had a private lesson I think, it was supposed to be on the, we had a private lesson and it was supposed to be on the Wednesday but it was a wet day, so it ended up being the Thursday and I think before that, we just sort of knocked around on the tennis courts, erm with everyone else and everyone else was having group lessons. Erm Matt did go down to the beach and do bits of sailing and I think I just you know, kind of read my book and sat by the pool, erm was usually in the mornings while Grace was in crèche and then you know we’d always get her at twelve or half twelve, whatever it was, I think it went ‘til half twelve, so you know pick her up between those times and then after that Sunday, every day after that we ate, we all had lunch in erm Dave and Fi’s apartment, erm it was you know, pasta or something for the kids and Diane would make sandwiches for all of us”.
1578 “What time would that lunch period be”?
Reply “It, erm about one really, by the time those kids were actually eating, it was probably about one-ish, so between one and two, erm Gerry and Kate didn’t come up and have lunch there, erm because the twins didn’t sleep in the afternoon, so they’d often you know, take a picnic and go down to the beach erm. I remember one, I think it might have been on the Monday that they came up to Dave and Fi’s after, sort of after lunch but otherwise they did their own thing at lunch time and the rest of us went up to Dave and Fi’s apartment and the kids had lunch there and you know we’d have a bite to eat as well and then we’d take, we’d take Grace down for a sleep and you know, so she was generally sleeping between two and four there, which is a bit later really than she normally does in the UK”.
1578 “Okay and then in the evenings”?
Reply “And then the evening yes, so on that, cos the Sunday night had worked well with us sort of eating dinner as adults and you know just going back to check on the children, erm that, but at the Tapas, they said they, you could only book in the morning, you couldn’t kind of block book or anything like that, you had to kind of call them at you know, eight or nine o’clock and say that you wanted a table for that night, erm and because we were a big group of nine, erm I begged and pleaded with them to let us book for the whole week, a table at eight thirty every night, erm”.
1578 “When did you do that”?
Reply “Because otherwise”.
1578 “No sorry, when”?
Reply “Oh when, that was on the Monday morning, erm because you know otherwise we, it would have just been really difficult to, well have a, have dinner in peace and erm, er you know we couldn’t really have gone anywhere else cos oh yeah, we’d have had, I’d have to take the children or put them, there was a like a crèche you could put them in, in the evening when you went to dinner but you know we were all kind of, you know the kids generally go to bed at seven thirty and they’re tired out, they need to sleep but if they went somewhere else, they wouldn’t have slept and erm, and you would have been up late, so we didn’t want to do that and you know the Tapas was there and you know the apartment, you know we could see the apartments just there, you know it was only sort of you know, birds eye view was only sort of you know, thirty metres or something like that, so erm and you know, and we kept going and checking, so that seemed like kind of a good option”.
1578 “So there was this rigorous checking procedure”?
Reply “Yes, yeah every night”.
1578 “Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday evening”?
Reply “Mmm yeah”.
1578 “And of course Thursday evening”?
Reply “Mmm yeah”.
1578 “So on, on a normal evening”.
1578 “How many times would, would yourself and, and Matthew have gone to check on Grace”?
Reply “Erm I suppose, we’d sit at the table about eight thirty, so erm we probably went about two or three times each during the course of the meal, erm yeah, well Sunday night Matt wasn’t there but he was in the apartment with Grace so I didn’t check, Monday night we were both at the table, erm and we just took turns”.
1578 “And did you wear watches”?
1578 “So would your checks have been time based or meal based”?
Reply “Yeah, erm well I mean they kind of felt like they were every sort of twenty minutes or so, but they were probably more meal base, it wasn’t a you know, we need to go check in five minutes, it was oh well, you know we’ve been sitting here a while, let’s go and check, erm I mean you know it wasn’t kind of rigid and”.
1578 “So you tried to consciously go every twenty minutes or so”?
Reply “Yeah, I mean there could have been”.
1578 “But there may have been some, some sort of overlap on the times”?
Reply “Yeah, mmm yeah”.
1578 “To try and fit in with the serving”?
Reply “Yeah the food and yes, mmm yeah”.
1578 “Okay, and when you went to check on Grace, what sort of checks would you conduct”?
Reply “Erm well we’d go into the room, which ordinarily we wouldn’t do to be honest, erm but she seemed to have diarrhoea and kind of, I mean she’d settled quite well actually cos she’d been tired every evening, erm but every morning when she woke up, she had diarrhoea and it had gone right through her grow bag and so there’s all of this sort of horrendous smell, so in the evenings when we were checking, we’d go into the room just to see if you know, there was any sort of smell yet, erm and just to make sure she was alright, to make sure she hadn’t been sick, partly I think cos Matt had been sick, just wanted to make sure that she hadn’t been, in case it was some sort of bug”.
1578 “Okay, and the route taken”?
Reply “Was up the road and then in through the car park at the back and in through the front door”.
1578 “In through the front door”?
Reply “Mmm yeah, I mean the patio doors were locked, erm yeah I didn’t really like going up there by myself, it was, like going through that car park was quite dark and there was never anyone around, it was a bit, you know made me feel a bit uneasy”.
1578 “Okay. What about the lighting there”?
Reply “Well there were lights, there were street lights along the road as you came out of the Ocean Club, erm sort of orangey you know street lights and along the main road at the back and the car park was quite dark cos there were quite a lot of trees that were sort of on that corner, erm and so the car park was quite dark and then when you actually got, you came down a ramp, or down some steps into the sort of area in front of the apartments and erm you know they were, there were sort of lights, you press a button and they come on for a certain length of time, so you know, you put those on to get to the front door, it wasn’t pitch black but I’m not keen on the dark anyway so erm”.
1578 “Okay. So the day routines”.
1578 “Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday”?
Reply “Yeah pretty much the same, sort of just you know, tennis or pool or you know lazing around really, erm while the kids were in crèche in the morning”.
1578 “Did you play tennis yourself”?
Reply “Yes, erm”.
1578 “Did you take your own equipment”?
1578 “Did anyone else in the group take their equipment”?
1578 “When I say group, sorry I mean racquets and so forth”?
Reply “Racquets and stuff, yeah, yeah we took our racquets, nobody else did, erm then we booked a private lesson, erm which we supposed to have on the Wednesday but I was ill on the Tuesday night, erm so on Wednesday, actually on Wednesday it was raining anyway, so I think all, all the tennis lessons and everything were cancelled, erm but so I was ill so, I was in bed”.
1578 “And when you say we, you’re referring to yourself and Matthew”?
Reply “Yes, yeah, erm so yeah Wednesday was slightly different I suppose cos it rained and things were off, although by the afternoon it had cleared up, erm and so on Wednesday night I didn’t go to dinner cos I’d thrown up the night before, you know it was just another weird thing about holiday cos I’m never ill, neither is Matt, as long as I’ve known him I’ve never known him be sick, erm”.
1578 “So you, on the Wednesday evening then, you stayed in the apartment with Grace”?
Reply “Yeah, yeah. I remember reading my book on the sofa for a while and then think I, I went to bed but it would have been quite, you know it would have been about nine, cos I’d been up most of the night before, erm and I mean I know that on Thursday night when we sat down at the table, Kate said that to Madeleine and Sean had you know, said they’d been crying on the Wednesday night and asking where erm, they’d said they’d been crying and, and some, you know, this is sort of with hindsight but I you know, I was trying to think whether I’d heard anything but”.
1578 “On the Wednesday evening”.
1578 “Who said they’d been crying sorry”?
Reply “Kate did, when we sat down at the table on the Thursday night, Kate said that erm, Madeleine and Sean had cried, said they’d been crying, erm and you know wondered where she was, or wondered where you know, Mummy and Daddy were, erm I mean this was kind of after Madeleine disappeared, we talked, she mentioned that when we sat at the table on Thursday and then after Madeleine had disappeared, erm McCANN’s said, oh well I wonder whether on the Wednesday, you know somebody had tried to get in perhaps or had got in and they’d seen something, erm you know and I was next door in the apartment but I mean I didn’t hear any, well you know, I didn’t hear anything, I could well have been asleep, erm you could hear quite a lot through the apartments because Grace, she always wakes up early but because she seemed to have diarrhoea every night, she’d wake up sort of six o’clock most mornings and we’d always have to put her in the, in the shower or in the bath first thing, and Gerry and Kate would always hear that and so you know, most of the comments first thing in the morning would be like, oh so Grace was up early again, she’d be invariably screaming her head off, so”.
1578 “On Wednesday evening”.
1578 “When you were poorly, what time would Matthew have gone down to”?
Reply “About half eight”.
1578 “About half eight”?
1578 “And do you recall what time he returned”?
Reply “No but it was quite late that night, it was later than any of the other nights”.
1578 “Why was that”?
Reply “Cos they’d gone to the bar after dinner and had a couple of drinks there, whereas you know, all the other nights we just got up from the table and went, went back to bed, so you know, it might have been about midnight or half midnight, as opposed to you know, probably about eleven I think when maybe they might have gone back to our rooms, back to the apartments”.
1578 “So whilst you were in the apartment on the Wednesday evening, did you hear anything unusual”?
Reply “No, nothing, no, erm it”.
1578 “Did you hear the patio door slide next door for example”?
Reply “Mmm no, mmm no”.
1578 “Did you hear that sliding at any point during the holiday”?
Reply “Mmm erm no not that I remember, I mean not”.
1578 “Was it physically possible to, to be in your apartment and hear the patio door slide in 5A”?
Reply “Erm if our patio doors had been open, you probably would have been able to yeah, cos the, their patio, oh no, there were, erm, is that a win, just a window, because Gerry and Kate’s apartment was bigger than ours, we just had one set of patio doors at the back and then next to our lounge, it was their bedroom and then there were big windows there, I’m not sure whether they’d have opened or not, erm and then on the, and then next to them were the patio doors that were the access doors”.
Reply “Or the ones that we used as the access doors, erm”.
1578 “So there was sort of a room between their patio doors and your”?
Reply “Yes, yeah, I mean I think, I don’t know, maybe, I mean if our patio doors were open and you kind of mmm, or if you were sitting on the veranda, you’d probably hear their doors sliding, but otherwise not, I don’t think you would really, erm”.
1578 “And do you recall at what time you slept that evening”?
Reply “I think I went to bed about nine-ish, erm but I couldn’t say that for definite”.
1578 “And you didn’t hear anything unusual”?
1578 “Did you see anything unusual”?
1578 “Anyone hanging around”?
Reply “There was just never anyone around, that was the thing you know, it was just like dead the place really, you know which is why we, kind of all comfortable in leaving the children and going back and checking them, cos if it had been really busy, we wouldn’t have done that, you know if there’d been lots of people milling around all the time, it wouldn’t have felt right, I mean the place was empty”.
Reply “You know it was so quiet, you know it was the beginning of the season and erm, yeah, you know if it had been remotely busy, you know, it wouldn’t have felt right leaving them and just going back and checking them now and then”.
1578 “Okay. So we move on then, we move forward to Thursday”.
Reply “Mmm mmm”.
1578 “The third of May, are you able to summarise the days activities”?
Reply “Yeah, the day was actually, it was different to the others because, well it was warmer weather wise, erm we went to the Millennium for breakfast as usual, erm we did that every day, Gerry and Kate didn’t, it was just too far for them to go with the twins, so they didn’t ever go for breakfast up there, I think apart from the first morning, erm so Matt, Grace and I went up to the Millennium, there was nobody else there from our group, erm and just as we were finishing and leaving, Russell arrived with Ella and Evie, erm Jane, because their tennis lesson had been cancelled the day before, Jane was in the, stayed back at the Ocean Club to start her lesson, cos that started at nine, erm and so I took Grace to the crèche and Matt stayed with Russell, erm and they took Ella, I think they took Ella down to her crèche and then the, Matt wanted to go down to the beach and go sailing, erm so I took Grace to crèche and then erm Matt and I were having a tennis lesson at eleven o’clock, and so basically it just, you know I just sat by the pool and read my book, sort of waiting for the tennis lesson and Kate, Kate was there and we sat together and had you know, chatted a bit, erm and then I think Diane might have been there as well, remember chatting to Kate cos we were talking about schools and that sort of thing, erm and holidays, erm and then I think it must have been at about ten thirty, Madeleine and Ella and their sort of group came to have a tennis lesson as part of their crèche activities, erm and Kate didn’t have her camera and Jane was there then as well and Jane took some photos of both Madeleine and Ella, that’s one, that poster of Madeleine with the tennis balls, that sort of pictures”.
1578 “That was taken on the”?
Reply “Yeah that was that morning”.
Reply “Yeah, erm so we sort of watched them have their tennis lesson, erm and there were a few other parents there, sort of taking photos and that sort of thing, erm and then they headed back off to crèche and then Matt came up from the beach and we had our tennis lesson at eleven with Dan, who’s you know, one of the coaches there, erm and then yeah that, well that went ‘til twelve and then basically we got Grace from the crèche then, erm and then erm I think we went to Dave and Fi’s you know, for lunch as usual, Dave and Fi’s apartment, erm and then when Grace was having her sleep, erm Jane and I went down to the tennis court and had a hit, erm cos she’d had her lesson that morning and I’d had mine so, we had about an hour hitting, just hitting the ball really, erm and Gerry and Kate were watching and erm and then we went back up and Grace was still asleep I think, so was Evie, erm so Matt and Russell went down to the beach to go sailing and you know, Jane and I said we’d get the kids up and then we’d head down to the beach when they were up, erm and then I think we ended up going down to the beach perhaps about, must have been about four, half four, something like that and Diane and Fiona and Lilly and Scarlet came down as well, can’t remember where Dave was, I think Dave had gone windsurfing, yeah he, he was down at the beach as well, he’d gone windsurfing, erm so we just headed down to the beach, it was a kind of a much warmer day than it had been previously, erm so I guess we were down there about half four-ish, quarter to five, erm and the kids just played on the beach a bit and sort of paddled in the sea a little bit and Matt and Russell came in from their sail and Matt had fallen overboard and Russell had managed to go back and rescue him so, cos it was, it was quite windy and I think they were quite big waves and Matt couldn’t see the boat and it was like, well this will be the story of the holiday, you know, the story to tell the grandchildren which is, you know which is what we said at the table at dinner that night, erm, erm, so they came in from their sail, Dave came in from his windsurf and you know, we just hung about on the beach for a bit, and then we decided that the kids, we’d give the kids their tea at the erm, there’s a restaurant on the beach, I think it’s called Paradiso, erm give the kid, the kids their tea there, rather than go back up for high tea, erm I think maybe Russell, Russell must have gone up to get Ella cos she was at crèche that afternoon, so I think he went up to the main reception of the Ocean Club where her crèche was and got her, brought her back down and then erm we sat outside on the sort of decking of the restaurant and kids had tea, we had a few, you know a couple of drinks, erm there were some swings and stuff there and they played on that, in the sand, erm we were there for quite a while, certainly ‘til about six, six-ish, half six maybe”.
1578 “So who was down there in the group on beach”?
Reply “Erm, Russell, Jane, Ella and Evie, erm Dave, Fi, Lilly and Scarlet and Diane and then Matt, Grace and I. Gerry and Kate didn’t come to the beach in the afternoon, I don’t know where they were actually, erm although when we were on the beach, we, I think we saw Kate going for a run, she was running when we were, basically they all went to crèche in the afternoon, all the children, so and I’m not sure what Gerry and Kate were up to but they, Kate yeah was running, I saw her running on the beach, probably about, that must have been about five o’clock something like that maybe, half four, five o’clock”.
1578 “Did you see her at that point”?
Reply “Yeah, she just run past us basically”.
1578 “Which way was she running”?
Reply “Erm, well she ran that way, it’s kind of you know, if you’re looking out at sea, she run to the left”.
1578 “To the left”.
Reply “And then ran back (inaudible)”.
1578 “Did you see her run back”?
Reply “Yes, saw her run both ways”.
1578 “How long after”?
Reply “Well maybe about ten minutes or something, you can only go so far along that beach and then you have to come back, might have even been less than ten minutes, you could see her kind of you know, going into the distance and then coming back”.
1578 “But Gerry wasn’t with her”?
Reply “No, no, he might have, if it was about, cos if it was about five-ish, then he would have been at tea with the kids, high tea, when the kids had their tea so, erm, but I don’t know what time it was, I mean it might have been a bit earlier than that but it would have been more or less round about high tea time I think mmm”.
1578 “How many occasions did you see Madeleine on the Thursday”?
Reply “Erm I think just really at, when she was doing the tennis, having her tennis lessons, as part of her activities, erm”.
1578 “Is that the last time you saw her”?
Reply “I think that was the last time I saw her yeah”.
1578 “Okay. So you’ve gone from the beach back up to the apartment”?
Reply “Yeah we went up, well erm but in the evenings, they had social tennis, which I think started at six thirty and went ‘til seven thirty and after about the first, you know the Sunday and Monday night, nobody had really turned up and we said that we’d like to go but it wasn’t a great time for us cos it was bath time and getting the kids ready for bed, so we asked them if they could move it forward, erm so they said they couldn’t sort of bring it forward to five thirty but I think they brought it forward to six o’clock for us, erm and I think, so, so that on Thursday night it was men’s social and erm, although I think it was probably about six thirty when we were still down at the beach, we’ve always kind of said, oh well you know, should we go to social tennis and we kind of said well you ought to because you know, they moved it deliberately for us, erm you know so that we could go, so you really ought to go up, erm so Matt, Dave and Russell headed back up to the apartments, I think that, it must have been about half six, quarter to seven, something like that, erm and you know we, we kind of followed, I don’t know, ten or fifteen minutes later, I think the kids were eating their ice cream and erm, you know we came up after they’d finished, erm so we probably got up there about seven-ish or something, a bit after seven”.
1578 “To where”?
Reply “Er up to, where the tennis courts were, which were next to the Tapas Bar, erm cos that recreation area’s just in front of the tennis courts, so we headed up there and the kids just played on the swings and slides while the boys played tennis”.
1578 “So who was there at that point”?
Reply “Erm in terms of us coming up from the beach, there was Jane, Ella and Evie, Fiona, Diane , Lilly and Scarlet, Grace and I and then when we got up to the tennis courts, erm Matt, Dave, Russell, Gerry were there, Matt, Dave, Russell and Gerry were playing tennis and I think there were a couple of other holiday makers”.
1578 “So Matt, Dave, Russell and Gerry were already playing tennis”?
1578 “And you joined them”?
Reply “Yeah, we went up there to play, we just stopped watching and supervising the children, erm and then I think shortly after we got there, or as we were getting there, Gerry said that he was gonna go back and help Kate get the kids ready for bed and help Kate get the kids into bed, so he went then, erm and Matt, Dave and Russell carried on playing, I think with Dan who was the coach, erm and we, the children played on the slide and stuff for a bit and then we headed back into the apartments to get them ready and left the boys playing tennis”.
1578 “So what, what time would you have arrived at the tennis courts to watch them playing”?
Reply “I think it would probably have been about seven, maybe about ten past seven”.
1578 “And the only people not present would have been”?
Reply “Erm Kate and the twins and Madeleine weren’t there, I think they’d, I don’t think they were there anyway and I know that they’d left shortly, shortly, I think it was shortly before we arrived, cos I know they’d been there, I think when the boys had arrived to play tennis and Kate had taken the kids off to get them ready for bed, so I don’t think they were there when we got there, erm no”.
1578 “And then a short time later, Gerry departed”?
1578 “To the apartment to give assistance”?
Reply “Yeah, mmm yeah”.
1578 “Do you know what time that was”?
Reply “Erm maybe it was probably, you know maybe about twenty past seven, he didn’t really stay, I don’t remember him staying that much longer after we arrived there with the children, he obviously played a bit of tennis with the boys and then sort of decided to head off, yeah so it’s probably about twenty past seven, quarter past seven, something like that”.
1578 “So we’re obviously approaching now the critical period”.
1578 “I’d like you to you know concentrate very hard and take yourself back and just relive everything you did from that point onwards, through the course of the evening”?
Reply “Yeah. Erm we went back to the apartments, erm I think err, we all headed off at the same time I think and erm, can’t remember whether that night Ella and, Ella might have had a bath in our apartment with Grace, not sure, I think it might have been that night, but we headed back, yeah probably about half seven, half seven, twenty to eight, which was kind of later than we would normally”.
1578 “Who’s we”?
Reply “Erm well Grace and I went back to our apartment and Jane went back with Ella and Evie to theirs and Diane and Fi and Lilly and Scarlet went up to theirs, erm”.
1578 “Leaving the men to continue”?
Reply “Yeah continue their tennis. Erm I mean it would have been about seven thirty, maybe even a bit later, maybe about twenty to eight, I mean it was certainly later than normal, cos normally because they’re in bed by half seven, erm went back to the apartment, I think Ella came and had a bath with Grace in our apartment, erm you know we often kind of went into each others apartments, sort of around bed time or just before, or just after, erm so I think Ella and Grace had a bath, erm and then I think we were reading books in the lounge area of our apartment and erm Matt came back from tennis”.
1578 “Who’s we, who’s reading books”?
Reply “Erm Grace and I and I think Ella was there as well, I can’t be certain about that though, whether Ella was there or not, erm but yeah, I mean Grace and I were reading and then Matt came back from tennis and you know we probably read another book or had a bit of a cuddle and then put Grace down, so she probably went down about, it was probably about eight o’clock that night, erm and then I had a shower and got ready for dinner and Matt did as well, erm and because you know, everything was happening, it happened a bit later that evening, we were later getting down to the table than we had been on, cos you know I mean the table’s booked for eight thirty, erm and you know by the time we’ve both get ready and stuff, it was, it was probably about half eight or you know maybe a bit later, erm and I remember seeing, we saw Gerry and Kate walk from, from our apartment, you could see the tables at the Tapas, erm I remember seeing Gerry and Kate sort of walk erm you know, into the Ocean Club and across to the Tapas, erm so Matt and I kind of sort of you know we’d better get going and that was, and walking down, we went out the front, the patio doors were locked, we went out the front door, locked that, erm through the car park and walked down the road and I think I remember going across the car park and asking Matt what the time was and it was about twenty to eight, er twenty to nine sorry, erm and so we were a bit later, erm and then when we got down there, Gerry and Kate were there already and were talking to erm I think he was called Steve, Steve who had played tennis with us and his wife, can’t remember what her name was now, erm was erm, anyway they were sitting at the table having dinner and Gerry and Kate were talking to them and Jane was there as well and she was sort of talking with them as well, erm and then we all sat down, erm Russell hadn’t come down with Jane because I think Evie hadn’t settled or both girls hadn’t settled yet, so he was just hanging on until they sort of dropped off to sleep, erm and so Russell probably, Russell was the next one to arrive at the table and that was probably at about, probably about quarter to nine, maybe ten to nine, probably not quite ten to nine, you know like quarter to or eight forty seven or something like that, erm and then Dave and Fi are always late for everything, which there was a bit of a sort of standing joke, so erm and we could see their apartment from the table, their lights were all still on and obviously they hadn’t got themselves out of there yet, erm and so at about five to nine, Matt said just he’d go up and get them and hurry them along, so he went back, yeah up the road and in through the car park, but actually as he was going up the road I think, he passed them erm and as he was leaving the table and said that he’d go and get Dave and Fi and Diane, erm he said he’d just have a listen outside the windows of the apartments, just to make sure there was no crying or anything, erm so he, he passed them in the street, they came and sat at the table and you know a few minutes later, Matt came back and he’d listened outside our window and you know, Grace was quiet and he listened outside Madeleine and the twins bedroom and that was all quiet, you know and all the, you know all the shutters were down”.
1578 “Did he tell you that”?
Reply “Not at the time but afterwards, but I mean he said yeah everything was quiet, he listened at all the windows and also Ella and Evie’s I think, I mean I know he definitely listened at Grace’s and at Madeleine and Sean and Amelie’s windows and everything was quiet so he came back, I mean you know, that, and that was different to the other nights cos you know, we hadn’t done that before you know, that hadn’t been part of the routine, sort of listening, even listening at other people’s windows, but you know, we’d all pretty much just arrived at the tables and erm, so you know, it was just kind of a quick check really”.
Reply “Erm so he was back at the table by probably nine, or you know and erm and then a couple of minutes later, Gerry got up to go and check cos they’d been, you know by that time, they’d been at the table probably for about half an hour I suppose, twenty five minutes maybe”.
Reply “Erm so Gerry went off erm came back a couple of minutes later, erm and then Jane went off at about ten past nine to check on Ella and Evie, erm and you know, and then you know yes she came back and everything was quiet there as well, and I think by, when Jane came back, we were all sitting down, we had our starters and ate that”.
1578 “What about Gerry returning”?
Reply “Yeah Gerry had come back sort of, erm well you know before Jane had, you know he’d only been gone a few minutes I think, not very long, erm he said he’d seen, to met J, he’d met Jez on the way back, who was one of the dads and he’d been playing tennis and there was supposed to be a tennis tournament on the Friday and I think they were, they were trying to get teams together and he’d been talking to Jez about the tennis tournament, erm so he’d, yeah stopped and chatted to him on the road and he mentioned that when he got back to the table, erm and then shortly after he got back, Jane got back, erm we had our starters and, and then about twenty five past nine, or half past nine, erm Matt and Russell got up and said that, no I think I said I’d go and check on Grace and Matt said he’d go and then Russell said that he’d go and check on Evie and Ella as well at the same time, erm and Kate got up to go and check on Sean, Amelie and Madeleine and Matt and Russell said oh you know, do you want us to do it, we’re going up there anyway so, erm she said yes and she said that the patio doors were open, so just to go in that way, erm so they headed up there, erm Matt came back about five minutes later, you know said to Kate that everything was okay, erm he’d been in and had a look at Grace, erm Russell wasn’t with him, erm he told Jane that Evie had been sick and so Russell was changing the sheets and looking after her, erm well I know all the detail about Matt you know, going into Gerry and Kate’s and all that sort of thing, do you want me to tell you that, it’s just, you know, it’s not really, I mean it’s”?
1578 “It’s not your evidence, it’s what he’s told you”.
Reply “It’s not my evidence yes, yeah, you know it’s about what we’ve all talked about as a group, erm”.
1578 “Well okay, for completeness, what did he say he did in the room”?
Reply “Erm well he and Russell went up and they were going to call at Gerry and Kate’s on the way but for some reason didn’t, they went round the back, erm Russell went into their apartment, Matt went into ours, checked on Grace, erm came out, went back to get Russell, that’s when he discovered that Evie had been sick, so Russell was sorting her out, erm so he went back round through the car park and out down the road, up the back steps into Gerry and Kate’s apartment, through the patio door, erm noticed that the door of the apartment was open but not wide open but sort of you know, sort of half open, which”.
1578 “Which door”?
Reply “The door to the bedroom, the twins bedroom and Madeleine’s bedroom, erm and I mean afterwards you know, he said he thought that was unusual because he thought the door would be shut, cos I mean we always shut Grace’s bedroom door, erm or at least if we did, I mean we always shut it but yeah I know some people would kind of probably just pull the door to, but he didn’t expect it to be as wide open as it was, erm so he, well he said you know from kind of standing close to the doorway, he could see that the twins were in their cots and there was no sound, erm so he just assumed everything was alright, he didn’t put his head round the door to see if Madeleine was in her bed, but he said he did wonder where she slept, erm poked his head, well you know kind of looked into Gerry and Kate’s room, just saw there was a double bed there, so you know, assumed they were all in together or, I mean I think he knew that they were all in together, erm but he didn’t actually look to see whether Madeleine was there or not”.
1578 “He didn’t open the door”?
Reply “He didn’t open the door any further no”.
Reply “Erm well the line of sight from where he was standing sort of from the lounge I think, allowed him to see the two cots with the two twins in and everything was quiet and erm, you know ordinarily we wouldn’t, we only really went to see, to look, actually look at Grace because you know Matt had been sick and I’d been sick and she’d sort of seemed to have had an upset stomach, erm but otherwise you know normally if everything was quiet, we wouldn’t open the door really, you know just they’re quiet, they’re not you know, as long as they’re not crying that’s, or don’t seem to be awake, then you just you know, leave them, erm so yeah he saw the twins and then you know, went out, shut the patio doors and you know came back to the table and said everything was okay, erm and then and then our main courses arrived and we ate those and Russell was still up with Evie, so Jane ate her dinner and then she went up to relieve Russell, which is like our standing joke of the holiday, erm and so Russell came back and he’d ordered steak or something but they couldn’t do another one and brought him his food, we’d all finished I think, erm so he was eating his dinner and Kate said that she you know was, must have been about five to ten then or ten o’clock, so Kate said you know, she’d go up and check, do her check and within a couple of minutes later she came back and shouting Madeleine’s gone you know, and then we all just leapt up from the table and went up to her, followed her and Gerry, erm up to their apartment and erm and I remember sort of standing at the bottom of the steps, I didn’t go into the apartment, standing at the bottom of the steps by the patio doors and I think Matt and Russell might have been having a look in the garden, erm and then Matt and I went round and went to our apartment to check on Grace, erm and she was there, erm and then Matt sort of went back and I think he went off to sort of look a bit more and search and he, he went down to call the Police at the main reception of the Ocean Club, erm and I just stayed near our apartment really and Jane was, she didn’t know what happened, she was looking after Evie, so I went to tell Jane what had happened, erm I think it must have been, must have been after we checked on Grace or sort of, after we checked on Grace and come out and I think perhaps Kate and Fi were standing by the window, like on the outside of the apartment and no, Kate, I think Kate had said you know, somebody’s taken her, cos the shutter was up and the window was open, erm yeah, I think it was then that we kind of realised that she’d been taken, erm as, you know, as opposed to just kind of wandering out of her bed and just wondering where people were, erm and then, and I remember then going to talk to Jane and Matt went off and that, I went to talk to Jane and said you know, that Madeleine had disappeared and the window was open and the shutter was up, erm and then Jane said to me that when she’d come back to do her check, erm she’d seen somebody carrying a child, walking kind of across the top of the T junction, as she, as she’d been walking up from the, from the Ocean Club, they’d been walking across the top of the road and we kind of said well you know, could have been, not could have been anyone but still sure it couldn’t have been Madeleine because Gerry, cos you know if when she was, when she left the table to come up to do her check, Gerry was talking to Jez in the road, erm and so we, you know we had this discussion between ourselves, oh you know, it couldn’t have been Madeleine because you know Gerry had only just checked and he was standing in the road and surely he would have seen, or you know surely somebody couldn’t have taken her that quickly cos Gerry had literally just come out of the apartment, erm and we kind of you know battered that idea back and forward between us for you know, a couple of minutes, erm but you know, anyway”.
1578 “So what time did Jane tell you this”?
Reply “It must have been about, erm ten past ten or something, quarter past ten I guess”.
1578 “And whereabouts did she tell you”?
Reply “We were just outside her apartment but there was like a space between the apartments, erm sort of courtyard-y bit”.
1578 “From the car park entrance or the pool side”?
Reply “Yeah, no the car park entrance”.
1578 “And who was present when she was telling you this”?
Reply “No just me, just me, cos erm Fi was with Kate and, and Gerry and, well with Kate and Gerry I think and all the boys were sort of, had started to look around and started to, Matt had gone to the Police Station to, no gone to the Ocean Club to phone the Police”.
1578 “What was Jane’s demeanour when she was telling you this”?
Reply “Erm she was quite shocked, well we were kind of bit puzzled, cos we thought well you know, could it really have been cos Gerry had just been in, erm but it was a bit of a sort of Jane was like, everybody gob smacked really that you know, she could well have seen Madeleine, erm but we did, you know we, we didn’t have this discussion about whether it could have been just because of the sort of time of Gerry going in and him standing outside talking to Jez and you know, it would have been, somebody would have had to you know, sort of be very quick, or have been in the room when Gerry had gone in, we didn’t talk about that at that time but, you know afterwards, erm obviously that was, I think we kept, yeah I mean we basically came to the conclusion that somebody would have had to have been in the room when Gerry had gone in to check”.
Reply “So anyway Jane and I you know talked about that and, and then I can’t remember whether she told, I think she told Fiona then, erm I mean basically you know as soon as the Police arrived, she told, she told the Police”.
1578 “When you, when you rose from the Tapas table and you followed Kate”.
1578 “To their apartment 5A, you said that you didn’t go into the apartment”.
Reply “Yeah didn’t go in”.
1578 “Who were you with at that point”?
Reply “Well we were altogether really, I think I was probably at the back with Matt, had some high heels on that I couldn’t really run very fast, remember that”.
1578 “And then”?
Reply “I got to the bottom of the steps and Dave and Fi and Gerry and Kate were already sort of on the balcony of Gerry and Kate’s apartment, and I think had maybe already gone inside, erm and I think, I think Russell and Matt maybe went into the garden and just had a quick scoot around there to make sure”.
1578 “And then shortly after yourself and Matt”?
1578 “Went round”.
Reply “Went round”.
1578 “To your apartment”?
1578 “How soon after”?
Reply “Well literally like you know a minute, was sort of a minute, no more than that”.
1578 “And you’ve, you’ve walked past the front or car park side of the apartments”?
Reply “Well yeah, you, well you go through the car park, you go up the road and turn left and then kind of cut in through the car park and then to get to our apartment, erm you go down a ramp and there was that courtyard area, I could draw it (inaudible)”.
Reply “Erm because”.
1578 “There is, there’s a number of sketches that I’d like you to do”.
Reply “Yeah okay”.
1578 “We’ll come on to this, as you’re walking across”.
1578 “Across the car park to your apartment, you’ve obviously, I dare say got Grace on your mind haven’t you”?
1578 “Did either of you at that point look across to the shutters and window of Gerry’s apartment”?
Reply “No, no, we didn’t know at that time that they were kind of up and the window was open and the sort of view you get as you’re walking across the car, you walk across the car park there’s a diagonal to get to the sort of ramp that goes down into the apartments, so Gerry and Kate’s you know shutters were here, erm that you kind of come into the car park and walk that way, so I don’t remember looking there at all, it was just like you know, get to our apartment and make sure that Grace is okay”.
1578 “So on the route that you walked to your apartment”.
1578 “Would there be anything in the way, preventing you from seeing the shutters, or would you have had a direct line of sight of the shutters”?
Reply “We would of, well if you’d kind of, if you turned to look that way, you’d have had direct line of sight of the, for the shutters but we were walking that way, so and I think you know, didn’t really look round, I mean there might have been a car parked there I don’t know but I don’t think there was, cos the car park was at this level and then there was a wall, erm and you know it was quite a big drop, maybe sort of about, like a four or five foot drop down from the car park onto the path that ran in front of the, Madeleine’s bedroom and, and the bedroom that we were in”.
Reply “So it was kind of down in a, I mean you know the shutters were there, at probably a car park level but you know there, there was quite a big drop off the car park”.
Reply “Onto that path”.
1578 “So let’s just continue then, you spoke about the conversation you had with Jane”?
1578 “What happened next”?
Reply “Erm, erm it was just sort of you know, chaos really, erm Matt went down to call the Police, erm I mean people just, I mean you know Russell and Dave kind of went off and looked just around the roads”.
1578 “What did you do”?
Reply “I basically just hung near our apartment, I didn’t want to leave Grace, erm I mean she was”.
1578 “Did you have Grace with you”?
Reply “No, no she was asleep and I didn’t, you know I didn’t want to leave the apartment by itself”.
Reply “Erm and Jane you know had Evie because she’d been sick, so she was sort of standing by the door, so I sort of you know, I was kind of talk to Gerry and then every now and then I’d go back and check on Grace, erm at one point, probably not that long after, maybe about ten thirty or something, Gerry and I looked at, up at the stairwell and kind of across all the floors of the block that we were in, erm and that was really the, that was all the searching that I really did, just up the stairs, I think they were five floors or something”.
1578 “And that was just you and”?
Reply “And Gerry”.
1578 “And what time was this”?
Reply “Erm I mean that would have been you know about half ten or something like that, erm and then”.
1578 “What was Gerry saying”?
Reply “Erm I don’t know, I don’t remember, erm no I don’t remember in particular, erm”.
1578 “And how long did you spend doing that search”?
Reply “It was just really a quick you know, it would have been about five minutes, it was just up the flights and along the, you know the sort of verandas in front of the apartments, erm but there wasn’t really anywhere you know, somebody could hide, well you know, if Madeleine had sort of wandered by herself, erm you know there were just really open corridors that we were just kind of looking to see if there was anything down there, erm”.
1578 “Then what did you do”?
Reply “And then I went back downstairs and really just sort of stood by Jane and we were just waiting for the Police to come, erm which you know took ages, I remember ringing Matt at least once or twice to say you know, look have you rung them, where are they, erm and I think at one point he did come back up again and the Police still hadn’t arrived and I think Gerry’s told him to go back down and ring them again, erm and then, I you know, didn’t really see him much or at all, I think they went off searching sort of down at the beach and around the village, erm and I just stayed up with Jane and you know, kind of checked on Grace every five minutes, just, even though I could see the front door, there was lot of panic situation”.
1578 “Did you, did you see the Police arrive”?
Reply “Erm yeah I mean not to kind of erm, I mean I was aware that they’d arrived, I couldn’t say whether, you know that I saw, they didn’t kind of come and park in the erm car park, I was aware that they’d arrived, erm”.
1578 “What time was that then, where are we up to now”?
Reply “Erm I think it was probably about half eleven, quarter to twelve, I mean they took a good hour or more than an hour to, to arrive, erm I think they arrived erm just before midnight that sort of time and it was uniformed GNR, uniformed guys, erm you know I think they went to Gerry and Kate first of all and then erm, and then I remember them coming, I mean obviously Jane wanted to tell them about seeing this person carrying a child, erm and by that time there were lots of people milling around, nannies and lots of Mark WARNER staff and people from the village, erm I mean I think that the Police went to see Gerry and Kate and then were kind of you know, wandering through and we were in that courtyard area and I think Jane got, I looked after Evie and Jane went off and told, I remember there was a, you know, but I don’t know whether he was kind of the head guy or, but he may be a bit more senior, he had a blue uniform on I think, long boots, erm and Jane went off and told him about seeing somebody carrying a child away, or carrying a child so erm and I held on to Evie while she did that, then she came back, erm and then it was either shortly, I think it was, I don’t know whether it was before that, it was either before that, or maybe it was at that time, maybe it was while Jane no, erm because at some stage pretty much, I think it was round about the time when the Police had arrived that, because obviously they couldn’t really speak English, erm they turned up with MURAT and there was a lady called Sylvia who worked for Ocean Club, she sort of organised the cleaners, or something like that and she kind of came up with the Police and Robert MURAT was there as well and you know he said that he was English but he spoke Portuguese and”.
1578 “What time is it now”?
Reply “I think that was about, it was about midnight, half past twelve, it was you know very shortly after the Police arrived, I think they’d been to Gerry and Kate and then they headed our way, think it was about half twelve, erm and yeah MURAT introduced, well you know he said, hi I’m Robert and I speak Portuguese and you know, can I help translate, erm and introduced himself and I shook his hand and then Sylvia as well with the Ocean Club, introduced herself and erm I don’t really, particularly remember talking to the Police, erm but yeah, they, they were there basically and that was about half past twelve, erm and erm I don’t, I don’t know where Jane was then, she wasn’t around, I mean she might have just been back inside the apartment, this is out in the, that courtyard area, erm and I think Russell came up then as well, erm and you know we were just sort of, but there were lots, lots of people, not just the Police and Robert MURAT and Sylvia, there were lots of other people sort of hanging around and looking and you know wondering what was going on, erm but Russell was there as well, erm and then the Police just sort of moved on, erm, erm you see and I think at that time, Russell got Robert MURAT’s mobile phone number, I mean I know Russell thinks it was the next day but I don’t know, I thought it was then that night, cos he thought it might be quite useful as he could speak, you know cos he could speak English and Portuguese”.
1578 “Well what did you witness in respect of that”?
Reply “Well I think at that time Russell got his number and put it into his phone, erm”.
1578 “Is that what you saw”?
Reply “Yeah, but cos it’s almost a year ago now, I mean you know, Robert MURAT was definitely there, I’m absolutely a hundred per cent certain about that, erm and I think, and I think at the time also and I think it would be in my Portuguese statement, that Robert MURAT gave Russell his mobile phone number then at that time as well, erm although since time’s passed and Russell kind of says oh he thinks that might have been the next morning, I kind of half think well it might have been the next morning but I think at the time I certainly thought and I’m sure it’s in my Portuguese statement that MURAT gave Russell the phone number that night, erm, but yeah I mean, you know he was definitely there, irrespective of whether he gave the mobile phone number or not, you know I’ve absolutely no doubt that he was there, erm and, and then you know, we were just like you know, I just basically stayed in the same spot pretty much and checked on Grace and talked to Jane and erm you know, just lots of people milling around and people going off searching and shouting Madeleine and erm, and then you know we decided at one, you know at some point that we should go to bed and I think that might have been at about, about three in the morning perhaps, not sure though, I mean it could be, could have been, could have been much later, I don’t think it was much earlier than that though”.
1578 “Okay, that’s about it”.
Reply “Yeah I think from that night, erm”.
1578 “Do you remember the clothing that you wore that evening down at the Tapas Bar”?
Reply “Erm yeah, I had white trousers on and some high heeled sandals which I then changed into trainers after, you know when we went back to check on Grace after we discovered that Madeleine had gone, erm and I mean I know I would have had my fleece and my denim jacket on because it was freezing sitting outside, you know and maybe a T-shirt and a jumper as well”.
Reply “Erm well denim jacket, sort of jean denim, erm black fleece, which I would have had under my jacket, yeah so that’s probably all you’d have seen of me from the outside, I think I, I might have had a red and white striped jumper on underneath that and maybe just a vest top”.
1578 “What about when you were eating at the table”?
Reply “Yeah I had all that on as well, it was really cold in the evenings, you didn’t take”.
1578 “Chilly evening”.
Reply “Didn’t take enough warm things, so it was like the, all the jumpers that we had yeah”.
1578 “Okay. Do you remember what Matt was wearing”?
Reply “Erm he didn’t take many clothes either, he had erm, I mean I know over the top of everything, he would have had erm a sort of a windproof-y it’s not a fleece but that type of thing, which is like a grey colour and his, think it’s Eider, Eider make, erm and I think black linen trousers I think, I don’t think, or did he take jeans, he either had jeans on or black linen trousers and that top and he probably would have had a shirt underneath that, or you know, or a T-shirt, erm and I think you know maybe trainers on his feet, cos it was a bit cold for anything else really”.
1578 “Okay. Would you just sketch for me please the Tapas Bar and table and the layout”.
Reply “Mmm mmm, erm okay, so that was our table, erm sort of here was about the inside of the bar must have been there and then when we arrived, Steve and his wife were sitting at the table here and then here there was like a big plastic sheet, erm”.
1578 “And where’s the apartment block”?
Reply “And then there’s the pool here and then the apartments are here”.
Reply “And that’s Gerry and Kate’s and ours and then that, and then that, that must have been Jane’s there and Dave and Fi above”.
1578 “Now this plastic sheet”.
1578 “What position was that in when you were eating on that Thursday evening”?
Reply “Think it was down”.
1578 “And what’s its construction, can you see through it or”?
1578 “Just a window or”?
Reply “No it’s a clear plastic, you know sort of quite thick but you could see through it”.
1578 “So here’s the table where you all sat”.
1578 “The nine of you, do you know who sat where”?
Reply “I was trying to remember this but I mean, I sat here, erm I think I was in between Jane and Russell, erm and then, Kate was there, erm there’s Russell and then I think, then Matt next door so, erm I think it was erm Dave was sort of here and Gerry was here, Dave, only Diane then and Matt and then Fiona there. I think yeah”.
1578 “That’s the best of your recollection”?
Reply “Yeah, well I know I was definitely sitting here, I’m absolutely certain about that, erm and I think I was in between Russell and Jane because the starter that they had was a shared one and they kind of, you know, shared it across me, erm and yeah and I think Kate was on, certainly on this side, cos I remember her getting up to say she was going to check and then Matt and Russell saying you know, do you want us, us to go, erm and we’d had that conversation at the beginning of dinner about, we kept saying I hope they’ll be okay cos I think last night they were crying and they said you know, when we were crying, erm yeah and I think and Fi was definitely over here somewhere, think she must have been next to Kate, erm and I think, I think Diane was in, she was either in between Dave and Matt or, or Dave and Russell, I mean Matt might have been down there maybe, erm Dave might have been the other way round, I’m not sure there, couldn’t say for definite”.
1578 “Let’s put a little question mark against there”.
Reply “Mmm. Otherwise I think, well you know, I was definitely here I know that and I’m pretty certain about the, these four”.
1578 “Okay, if you’re happy with those then, if you underline those”.
Reply “Yeah, erm, erm I think the rest, I think that’s about right, it’s maybe this bit here that I’m not quite sure about”.
1578 “And from where you were sat, what was your view like of the apartments”?
Reply “Erm well yeah I could see, I mean I could see the patio doors of ours and Gerry and Kate’s”.
1578 “How much of the patio doors”?
Reply “Erm well kind of the top half really”.
Reply “Yeah you know, I didn’t get a full you know, you couldn’t get a full view sort of right in, cos there were bushes, there were bushes and stuff there, erm”.
1578 “Was there any point during the meal that evening when you, when you consciously looked over at the patio doors, just from a security conscious point of view”?
Reply “Mmm, erm I might have done but, I mean I probably did look up now and then, just to kind of, I mean not, you know I didn’t specifically think oh I’ve got to look every now and then to make sure the, you know, I could still everything, erm I mean I’m sure I did look up and see, and see the door, you know see the patio doors, just because, you know you kind of feel comforted don’t you if you can see, erm you know if you can see something”.
1578 “Of course you were safe in the knowledge that yours was locked”?
Reply “Yes I mean if they’re unlocked, I don’t know whether I’d have looked up any more, I suppose maybe I would have done, I don’t know, I mean that’s yeah, I mean ours were locked so”.
1578 “Do you want to just mark that up with, with your initials”?
Reply “Mmm mmm”.
1578 “RMJM, we’ll call that 100/100, R M J M100 yes”?
Reply “Mmm mmm”.
Reply “I did do a table drawing at the time when I was interviewed in Portugal”.
1578 “Oh did you”?
1578 “Oh sorry, I wasn’t aware of that okay. This is the plan of the Resort”.
Reply “Mmm mmm”.
1578 “And the Tapas Bar is over here”?
1578 “Which route would you have taken when you went to check on the apartments”?
Reply “Erm, there was a path down here, right here, then up the road (inaudible) and then in here and then the kind of, the entrance to the, to the apartments is sort of here, with a little ramp down, so that”.
Reply “And then (inaudible) our apartment was about, sort of here, the door, cos the door to Gerry and Kate’s was kind of on the front, the door to ours was on the side”.
1578 “I think that, that may be”.
Reply “Is that supposed to be”?
1578 “One apartment”.
Reply “Right okay”.
1578 “So you would have been next door wouldn’t you”?
Reply “Yep, that looks a bit big to be one, I think it would have been about, would have been a lot in that block”.
1578 “Would there”?
Reply “Yeah. Erm cos there was this little alleyway between these two blocks and erm there would have been probably about, maybe about eight across here”.
Reply “Erm but yeah the door to our apartment was sort of on the side here”.
1578 “Let’s get the, another piece of paper, if you want to expand on that view”.
1578 “Just a larger scale if you like”.
Reply “So yeah, erm, sort of Gerry and Kate’s apartment is sort of like that, and ours was like this, then came down, my front door was sort of here, their front door was there, erm and then across here there’s erm the door to apartment C was here, (inaudible) went across a bit more and the door to apartment D which was Russell and Jane’s was there, then it went out again, then that, so this is that sort of courtyard-y bit and then this is the wall here”.
Reply “This is the (inaudible) down, this is the car park, erm and, and there’s, there was a lift here, a lift and stairs up to the next floor, erm and then there was a ramp that sort of came round here from the car park bit, erm and then this side, what’s that by the steps, the side of the steps, and there’s steps down here, (inaudible) yeah that’s the car park, then the road was up here, there’s an entrance into the car park as well er, that’s okay (inaudible) about that, down the steps and then to our door”.
1578 “This is when you went to check on Grace”?
1578 “So how close would you have been to the shutters”?
Reply “Erm, that’s the door, there were shutters, think they only had one set of shutters in their room and we had two sets (inaudible), erm well I mean not particularly close, erm and sort of walk this way, so erm it would probably be, erm about ten yards”.
Reply “That would be about right, erm yeah, I mean certainly from here to the shutters would be, so yeah you know when you’re getting kind of, I mean the closest you would be, I suppose would be when you’re about here and that would probably be about, erm be like fifteen feet away or something like that, twenty feet in length”.
1578 “Are there any street lamps in this car park area”?
Reply “No, there were street lamps on the road, I think there were street lamps on this street, which is where you come up, but erm and you know a couple of street lamps probably along this road, but the, the car park wasn’t, I don’t think was lit, there were, there were lights in here and then when you actually got in here, there were extra lights to put on, erm and I don’t think there were any lights in the car park”.
1578 “Whereabouts did you have a chat with Jane when she told you about the man and child”?
Reply “Erm just here”.
1578 “Do you want to mark that sort of position, Rachael and Jane okay. So if we call this RMJM101, that 102. We’re getting quite close to the end of, of this tape now”.
1578 “So it’s probably a good point to conclude this interview”.
1578 “We’ll have a break”.
Reply “Mmm mmm”.
1578 “And continue in a short while”.
1578 “Probably have some lunch actually”.
1578 “Okay, the time is twelve nineteen and this interview is ceasing”.