Date of Interview: 09.04.08
Time Commenced: 1347 hours
Time Concluded: 1528 hours
1578 “Okay the time is one forty seven pm and that’s on Wednesday the ninth of April, two thousand and eight. We’re in an interview room at Leicestershire Police Force Headquarters. I’m DC 1578 Andrew GIERC of the Leicestershire Major Crime Unit. Would you give me your full name and date of birth please”?
Reply “Er Rachael Mariamma Jean MAMPILLY, eleventh of the eleventh, seventy”.
1578 “Thank you very much. This is the second interview of today Rachael and we’ve discussed over the first interview, the build up to the holiday, the association of the group and you’ve then taken us through a summary of daily routines, upon arrival at the Resort and we’ve gone into some detail in respect of the activities on Thursday the third of May, two thousand and seven, the day of course that Madeleine disappeared”.
Reply “Mmm mmm”.
1578 “I have a list of questions here from the Portuguese Authorities that I’d like to go through with you. Firstly, could you clarify to me please your mobile phone number”?
Reply “Yeah 07771 591461”.
1578 “And is that the number you had in Praia”?
Reply “Yes, mm yeah”.
1578 “Okay. Do you know who the user is of a mobile number, 917453319”?
Reply “No, 917, 917, so it’d be 0917”?
1578 “No, you’ve just says 917, could it have been a Portuguese number”?
Reply “Erm, just say it again”?
Reply “No, no idea, I mean I’ve got my phone, I could look”.
1578 “Okay, do you have it with you”?
Reply “I do yeah but, is there any way”.
1578 “This phone number”.
Reply “Yeah, is it a number that I rang”?
1578 “Called yourself”.
1578 “At twenty two thirty six twenty five hours on the fourth of the fifth, so on the Friday”.
Reply “On Friday”.
1578 “Just after ten thirty in the evening”.
Reply “Erm, erm okay well let me just have a look at my mum’s number, oh that’s, that ends in 092, that’s not right is it, erm 7, what did it end in again”?
1578 “It ends in 3319”.
Reply “3319, erm, erm did you say it called me, or I called it”?
1578 “That number called your mobile”.
Reply “Ten thirty, (inaudible), well I don’t know, the only people that, well I think the only people I spoke to, I know that a client did ring me one of the days but it wouldn’t have been ten thirty at night, erm it was either that Friday or the following Friday to cancel an interview that was happening but I mean that wouldn’t have been at ten thirty at night, erm I would think, I mean I suppose it could, it might have been a Journalist, because on the night that Madeleine disappeared, on the Thursday, a friend of mine, or friends of Matt’s and mine, Kath and James LANDALE and James LANDALE’s a BBC News erm and at the time he was like Political Correspondent, erm I saw him the other night actually reading the news on BBC News 24 but I rang him, or I rang his wife Kath cos I had her mobile number, erm basically to say you know that Madeleine had gone missing, was there any way that we could get it on the news and that was, that was on the Thursday night, so I suppose and it was the loc, it was the, was it the Local Elections or something happening that day”?
1578 “I don’t know”.
Reply “There were some sort of Elections, must have been Local Elections and James was out, away reporting on that but anyway Kath put me in touch with him and I spoke to him and I spoke to a couple of people on the BBC News 24 desk, so I mean you know, it must”.
1578 “That was on the Thursday evening”?
Reply “That was on the Thursday night”.
1578 “What time would that have been”?
Reply “Well that was sort of you know, midnight after midnight (inaudible)”.
1578 “And this was just after ten thirty pm, twenty two thirty six”?
Reply “On the thir, but that was on the fourth”?
1578 “Yes sorry you’re correct on the fourth, Friday so”.
Reply “Yeah, I mean it could have been somebody calling I suppose in relation to that possibly, erm but otherwise, I mean I only really spoke to you know, sort of my mum and sort of you know, close friends and family, erm and then you know, well Kath, Kath, James’ wife and then James rang me and I think I rang him back and then a couple of people from the BBC News 24 rang, but that was the Thursday night”.
Reply “Erm and actually I do remember actually, on the Friday, my phone went a lot with lots of different BBC people ringing at various times, so that could have gone on until the evening”.
1578 “Alright then, we move on. Who is the user of phone number 07812 799092”?
Reply “092 erm”.
1578 “There are a number of text exchanges between you and that person both ways”.
1578 “On the second of the fifth and also fourth of the fifth, one, two, three, four, five, there were six messages, exchanges on the second”.
Reply “Okay right”.
1578 “And five exchanges on the fourth”.
1578 “It ends 9092”.
Reply “9092, I think, I don’t (inaudible), 9092 my mum”.
1578 “So the next question is what kind of relationship is there between you and that person”?
Reply “It’s my mother”.
1578 “Do you recall the nature of those messages”?
Reply “No, I mean it would be having a nice time, you know that kind of thing, certainly on the second anyway, not the fourth, erm no, no just we were telling her what we’d been up to or telling her what the weather was like, something like that, nothing”.
Reply “And then”.
1578 “What’s, what’s your mum’s name”?
Reply “Barbara MAMPILLY”.
1578 “Barbara MAMPILLY”?
1578 “What address does Barbara live”?
Reply “In Wales”.
1578 “Do you know the address”?
Reply “Yep, erm The Glen, New Road, Pengham, Blackwood, Gwent, NP12 3QZ”.
1578 “Thank you”.
Reply “Mmm yeah I mean on the fourth it would be obviously telling her about Madeleine and that’s the sort, I mean she rang me in the morning, I remember that, cos she’d heard it on the radio, she heard it on the eight o’clock news I think so and rang”.
1578 “So we go on to the next one”.
Reply “Mmm mmm”.
1578 “0781 7049612”?
Reply “9612, when did I call them or”?
1578 “They sent you a text message at eleven thirty three hours on the third, 1103 hours on the fourth and then they phoned you at twelve thirty two on the fourth”.
Reply “Okay, erm so what did the number end in again”?
1578 “9612, and again the same questions, what’s the nature of your relationship and the nature of the calls”?
Reply “9612, that’s my sister, Ruth MAMPILLY”.
Reply “Yeah 049612”.
1578 “049612 Sorry, what’s her name”?
Reply “Ruth MAM, MAMPILLY yeah”.
1578 “Ruth MAMPILLY. Whereabouts does Ruth live”?
Reply “She lives in Cardiff, erm her address is Rose Cottage, Main Road, Main Street, erm Gwaelod-y, which is G W A E L O D – y lower case – Garth, capital G A R T H, Cardiff, not sure what the post code is, it might be CF15 or something but I’m not sure”.
1578 “Okay, and who does Ruth live with”?
Reply “Erm her fiancé Mark SUTTON”.
1578 “Okay, and again do you recall the, the nature of the texts and call”?
Reply “No, so text her on that, well she, well one of us texted that night on the third did we”?
1578 “She sent you a text at eleven thirty three am”.
Reply “Oh am okay”.
1578 “On the third”.
1578 “She sent you another text, 1103 am on the fourth and then she called you at twelve thirty two”.
Reply “Okay, I mean on the third in the day, that morning text, is probably just you know, having, you know having a good time, something like that, erm and I mean on the fourth it would, she would have been ringing, er texting and then ringing to just you know see if we’re alright really and see what was happening, erm and she would, she’d again, she, well she would have spoken to my mum I expect and then you know heard about it on the news over there”.
1578 “Okay. The next one is 07768 698713”.
Reply “Mmm 07768, erm 713 did it end in”?
1578 “8713 yes”.
Reply “Yeah that was Kath LANDALE, James LANDALE’s wife, I used to work with Kath, that’s how we know them, she was a Solicitor and so was I, erm”.
1578 “Whereabouts does Kath live”?
Reply “Erm in Hampshire”.
1578 “Do you know the address”?
Reply “Erm you know it’s something like, erm something Farmhouse, like Old Stoke, mmm I mean no, not really”.
1578 “No, don’t worry. So again the relationship between you, is that you used to work together”?
Reply “I used to, yeah Kath and I used to work together and erm her husband James is a BBC Political Correspondent”.
1578 “The contact between yourself and, and Kath”.
1578 “Was all on the fourth, starting at one forty two in the morning”.
1578 “Where you called her number”.
1578 “She called you back at one fifty eight”.
Reply “Mmm yeah”.
1578 “For about, well nearly seven minutes and she called you back again two twenty two am”.
Reply “Right, I mean I called her initially to, cos I didn’t have their home number, I just had Kath’s mobile, so to try and get hold of James and then she said yeah, he, he wasn’t at home cos of the Elections, so she said she’d get in touch with him and then call me back, or somebody would call me back, so she called me back and I think I remember then giving her details of where we were and you know how old Madeleine was and that sort of thing and then I think she passed that on again to, to James, erm and then obviously, then must have rang me back then and just said, I think maybe on her last phone call she might have rung me back and said somebody from News 24 would call me, erm or, or that James would call me or something, cos I did speak to James on the night as well I think, erm but I spoke I think a few times to some, to somebody from the BBC News 24, erm so those conversations”.
1578 “On Kath’s phone”?
Reply “No, no, they”.
1578 “They called you back”?
Reply “Yeah they would have been, I mean they would have either have been London numbers or erm, or mobile numbers I guess”.
1578 “There’s a total of nine contacts between yourself and Katherine’s mobile one way or the other”.
Reply “Oh right”.
1578 “Between one forty two am on the fourth”.
1578 “And twelve thirty nine pm on the fourth”.
Reply “Right, well that would have just been between me and Kath and just probably her just finding out what was happening”.
1578 “Just giving”.
Reply “And if anyone had contacted us and I think”.
1578 “The last one, two, three, four, five, the last six contacts were text messages”.
Reply “Mmm right”.
1578 “Either way, I don’t suppose you’d still have those text messages on your phone”?
Reply “No, no sorry I’m a bit, anything like that and I get rid of everything, erm, actually I didn’t, I should have brought with me, I’ve got lots of scraps of paper from that, you know from the third onwards of different numbers that I took from people from the BBC and newspapers and stuff like that, people who’d rung me and then email addresses and all that sort of thing, I didn’t bring any of those with me, cos basically as soon as I’d rung Kath and you know somebody from News 24 rang me back at some stage for the, basically from then on, my number seemed to obviously have gone everywhere and had loads of reporters ringing newspapers and”.
Reply “And I’ve got various numbers written down on bits of paper”.
1578 “Okay the next number it’s rather an odd number”.
1578 “It’s, it starts as they all do, it starts with 44”.
1578 “But for simplicity when I’ve been asking you about mobiles”.
1578 “I’ve taken the 44 off and added a zero”.
1578 “This full number is 44”.
1578 “5493 7016 5752 and you received a call from them at zero two thirty three on the fourth of the fifth, so half two in the morning on the fourth”.
Reply “Morning, I should imagine that would have been somebody from the BBC I expect, erm, can I write that, can I write it down just so I can see it”?
Reply “Erm got a bit of paper, thanks so”.
Reply “Mmm mmm”.
1578 “5493 7016 5752 and that was timed at two thirty three twenty eight, two thirty three twenty eight seconds”.
1578 “On the fourth of the fifth”.
Reply “Yeah, that’s a funny number, erm”.
1578 “And again the same questions, what’s the relationship between you and that person and what was the nature of the call”?
Reply “Mmm, I mean I don’t recognise the number and I can only look in my, I can’t, do you know how to look at just numbers in here, erm, erm unless it was like you know the Consulate or something but otherwise (inaudible), erm 549 no, I mean I’ve got Bill HENSON’s number who was the, was either Consulate or the Ambassador, it’s not that number but that’s got as many numbers in, so it could either have been the, you know like the British Embassy in Portugal, or it would be somebody from the BBC, otherwise I think”.
1578 “Okay. Right the next number 079731 00123”.
1578 “And you contacted that number once on the second at nine fifty seven am and twice on the fourth, eight ten am and twelve thirty four pm”.
Reply “Erm, erm”.
Reply “Got no idea”.
1578 “Would it help if I”?
Reply “(Inaudible) me to ring somebody on the second and it would, would have said it was, you know, it might have been a work related thing and then I wouldn’t, I don’t think I’d have been ringing anyone at sort of ten past eight on Friday, erm”.
1578 “Would it help if I suggest that it could be a customer service number of some sort, what Network are you on”?
Reply “Erm I’m on Orange but I think I might have been on Vodafone then (inaudible)”.
1578 “So could it be a message retrieval system or something”?
Reply “Oh yeah, voicemail, (inaudible) 0100123 voicemail”.
1578 “So does that indicate that someone’s left you a message and you’ve picked the message up”?
Reply “Yes and that’s picking it up yes, yeah”.
1578 “Again can you recall the nature of the message”?
Reply “No, no, on the, on the second you know it would either have be my mum, my sister, it might have been somebody at work leaving me a message, you know, I mean nobody, it wouldn’t have been anyone import, well you know not, you know, I don’t, any really on holiday I will speak to kind of my mum and my sister, erm and yeah I suppose work might be the other thing, picking up a message from somebody at work probably, I mean on holiday I had my phone switched off in the day and I just check it for messages in the evening, or you know when we came back at lunch or something like that perhaps”.
Reply “I didn’t, I didn’t take it round with me or anything until after the third”.
1578 “Okay, that’s in respect of phone enquiries”.
Reply “Mmm mmm okay”.
1578 “We now move on to general questions from the PJ. Did you leave Praia Da Luz on the night Madeleine went missing”?
1578 “So you didn’t go out of Praia”?
1578 “You didn’t meet anyone”?
Reply “Other than”.
1578 “Out of Praia, only the people that we’ve discussed”?
Reply “Yeah, no didn’t meet anyone else”.
1578 “Did you use any means of transportation”?
1578 “Did you at any time leave the doors open in your Ocean Club apartment”?
Reply “On that night, or do you mean”?
1578 “It says at any time, so I suppose we’d better cover the week”.
Reply “Erm, yeah I mean, well not open, we left the patio door unlocked occasionally if we were just popping out to the pool and nipping out the back doors, erm the patio doors was the easiest way if we were all going out and there was, there was nothing really in the apartment to steal, erm but otherwise they were locked all the time”.
1578 “Did you at any time leave the windows open in your Ocean Club apartment”?
Reply “No, erm I mean the bedroom windows and shutters were down, the shutters were down the whole time and the windows were shut, I mean we didn’t even open the shutters in the bedroom and then really the only other window to open was the patio doors, which you know were obviously open when we were in the apartment, erm you know cos we sat outside on the balcony quite a lot”.
1578 “Okay. In the days before Madeleine went missing, did you at any time check on your children, if so, how often”?
Reply “Erm yes I mean when we were at dinner, that was what we did in the evenings was have dinner and check on the children, well I mean we only, until the Thursday, we only checked on her own children, so Matt and I just checked on Grace and that would of you know, every sort of twenty to thirty minutes, erm while we were having dinner”.
1578 “On the Thursday night”?
Reply “No on, on, on the other nights”.
1578 “On the other nights sorry”.
Reply “And on the Thursday night you know it worked slightly differently and there was much more movement and much more checking than there had been on other nights for some strange reason, I mean not for anything particular but just that’s the way it happened, erm yeah and erm up until that night, each family had only checked on their own children, erm whereas on the Thursday, you know Matt, Matt when and checked on Sean, Amelie and Madeleine, erm you know and that hadn’t happened before”.
Reply “But the only time we needed to check was you know when we were having dinner cos that, that was the only time that you know Grace was left by herself, when she’s having her lunch time naps you know, we just sat on the balcony, we didn’t check, you know we didn’t check then that she was in the room, I mean you know, erm and otherwise she was in crèche or we was at erm”.
1578 “Okay. We have now a list of questions from Gerry and Kate, some of these are possibly duplicated”.
Reply “Yeah okay. Is that all the questions from the Portuguese although (inaudible)”?
1578 “For the moment”.
1578 “How long have you known Gerald and Kate and what sort of relationship is there between you and the couple”?
Reply “Erm I first met them at Dave and Fiona’s wedding in Italy in September, two thousand and three and we shared an apartment there, erm for sort of the three or four days that we were there for the wedding, erm and then erm I mean Matt knew Gerald, er knew Gerry already from work, erm but I mean, you know we weren’t sort of really close friends with them and saw them by ourselves, we’d only really see them if Dave and Fiona were around, er but you know parties and that sort of thing, erm and then the next sort of significant time that I remember seeing them was at Dave’s fortieth, erm and, and then basically the holiday”.
1578 “Have you ever been with Gerald and Kate at their home with their children”?
1578 “Have you spent holidays with them at any other time, if yes can you describe the way they took care of their children in the evening/at night”?
Reply “No we hadn’t been on holiday with them before, apart you know, apart from Portugal last year, that was the first time we’ve been on holiday with Gerry and Kate”.
1578 “I’m sorry, I thought you said you said you shared an apartment with them in Italy”?
Reply “Oh well okay yeah, well that was, I mean Madeleine was about three months, erm and erm, I mean one, one night it was you know, well one day it was the wedding and then the dinner in the evening and I think, I mean Madeleine was with Kate all the time, I mean she was breast feeding, erm the other nights, I don’t remember but I mean we ate in the apartment and erm, yeah basically ate in the apartment and then sort of went to bed really so, Madeleine would either have been you know, up with us, erm or as, or asleep up in the bedroom”.
1578 “How often did you used to meet Gerry and Kate during the holidays from the twenty eighth of April to the third of May”?
Reply “We saw them every day, erm, I mean Sean and Amelie were in the same crèche as Grace, so we saw them in the mornings, you know either being dropped off or collected at midday, erm and then you know we’d either sit by the pool together, or we’d play tennis together, Matt and I and Gerry and Kate, one of the days, I don’t, maybe the Tuesday, erm”.
1578 “That was Monday and Tuesday”?
Reply “Well may, maybe the Tuesday, I’m not sure which, it was Monday or Tuesday I think, I think it was fairly early the beginning of the week, erm Matt and Kate went running one afternoon, erm I mean we saw them every day and obviously at dinner every night as well, erm well tea, when the children had tea everyday at quarter to five at the bit by the Tapas Bar, erm you know they were there with their children, erm so we saw them everyday you know, a few times a day really”.
1578 “How often did you used to see their children, Madeleine, Sean and Amelie”?
Reply “Erm well we saw all the children everyday as well, Sean and Amelie we saw more than Madeleine because they were in crèche with Grace, erm and Madeleine was in crèche and it was kind of off, off site, it was at the main reception of the Ocean Club, erm and, and then we’d, we’d always see them at tea time, we’d all have tea together and then after tea we always just went to the sort of recreation area by the tennis courts and the kids would play on the swings and the slides and you know, you’d just sort of chase them around and play games and stuff, so I mean everyday”.
1578 “Okay. Did you feel at any time that there was a reason to be concerned about the children”?
Reply “No, absolutely not, I mean they were really happy children, they all played together really well, well all, all eight of the children, erm and you know Gerry and Kate are great parents, they’re great with their kids, erm”.
1578 “I think you’ve already covered this one, when was the last time you saw Madeleine”?
Reply “Erm it was when she was having a tennis lesson, in the morning yeah, about probably between ten thirty and eleven on the morning of the third of May”.
1578 “At the tennis courts”?
Reply “Yes at the tennis courts”.
1578 “Any particular court”?
Reply “Erm it was the one, if you were standing facing the courts, it’s the one on the left I think”.
1578 “Got your exhibit here, number 101, are they the tennis courts”?
Reply Yes, it was, it was that one, there are only two courts there”.
Reply So it would have been this one here, where the children were”.
1578 “What’s that one there and what is that”?
Reply “Erm that’s the, I think that’s probably, well the outside bit of the, of the crèche overlooked the tennis courts and so maybe that’s that, that’s not quite sort of accurate I don’t think that, that diagram, the crèche was here and there’s an outside area here and the indoor, in, inside of it there”.
1578 “Okay. When did you see Kate and Gerald on Thursday May the third”?
Reply “Erm well I saw Kate, I chatted to Kate by the pool, erm in the morning”.
1578 “What time was that”?
Reply “That would have been from sort of, you know half nine, ten o’clock onwards, we were chatting when Madeleine arrived for the tennis lesson with the rest of the children from her group, erm I think that was probably about ten thirty, erm and Gerry was there then as well, I think he’d been having a lesson on the tennis courts I think, he was having group lessons, so I think he might have been having his lesson sort of up until then, erm so they were both there then and then erm Matt and I had our tennis lesson and then Jane and I, when Jane and I were having a hit on the court when, in the afternoon, so about half two, three o’clock when Grace was having her sleep and Evie was asleep, erm Gerry and Kate were watching us, so we saw them then and then we saw Kate running on the beach later on that day, about quarter to five, five o’clock”.
Reply “Erm and then Gerry we saw on the tennis court later on in the evening when the boys came up to play tennis for that social session and that was at about you know, seven”.
1578 “About seven”?
Reply “Until about twenty past seven when he went back to help Kate put the children to bed, erm and then at the table then at sort of twenty to nine (inaudible) a bit then, oh well Matt and I saw them walking down to the table, sort of eight thirty eight or something like that and then we got down to the table at just after about twenty to nine”.
1578 “And then obviously at the table”?
Reply “Yes, erm we were all there until oh erm, well we were actually all sitting at the table at about erm nine, five past nine and then that’s when Gerry went off and did his check, think he was probably away about five minutes after he’d talked to Jez as well on the way back and then erm, and then Kate left at sort of about ten, just before ten, went up and came back, well she was probably away about five minutes, maybe slightly longer, I think she looked round the apartment, just to make sure Madeleine hadn’t wandered into one of the other rooms, erm and then she was back and then, and then we all headed off then, erm anyway then they were together I think for pretty much most of the rest of the night, you know they were both you know, pretty much hysterical and screaming and shouting and erm, then I really kept out of the way just sort of checking on Grace and talking to Jane, erm remember I was sort of avoiding being there really, just, you know it was just awful”.
1578 “Yes, but you briefly checked the stairwells with”?
Reply With Gerry yes”.
Reply “Mmm yeah”.
Reply “Yeah and”.
1578 “What time did you arrive at the Tapas Restaurant on May the third”?
Reply “Erm twenty to nine”.
1578 “Who was there already”?
Reply “Gerry and Kate and Jane and they were talking to a couple on another table”.
1578 “Do you know who that couple was”?
Reply “Was Steve, I can’t remember what his wife was called, we played tennis with them”.
1578 “What were Kate and Gerry doing by the time you arrived”?
Reply “Well they were kind of finishing up their conversation really with Steve and his wife, so I think we sat down and they sat erm sort of, sort of a few seconds later or thirty seconds later”.
1578 “Did you speak to Kate and Gerry”?
Reply “Yes, erm can’t, I mean I do remember Kate saying that she hoped the children were okay because they’d said that last night they’d been crying and erm they kind of said her, ‘Mummy, where were you’, so she sort of hoped, she hoped they were alright, erm and then it was just general chit chat really, think we talk, on the Friday there was supposed to be a tennis tournament and I think we were sort of trying to get teams together or couples together or something and you I think we chatted a bit about that, I think we were one man short, cos I think Matt didn’t really want to play or something, erm”.
1578 “That was going to be”?
Reply “That was going to be on the Friday”.
1578 “Following day”.
Reply “Erm so I think we probably talked about that a bit and otherwise you know, just general, probably that the weather had been a bit better that day and (inaudible) remember when the rest of us were there, we talked about Matt falling off the boat and Russell rescuing him and you know, it was actually quite a dramatic story and we were like well you know, that will be the talk of the holiday, the story of the holiday, erm so yeah that was kind of discussed at length cos Russell felt quite a hero and er, er I think he done quite well actually to get back and rescue Matt, erm and I don’t know what else we talked about, just, no I mean nothing specific really just general chit chat”.
1578 “What was their behaviour like”?
Reply “Well you know the same as it had been every other night, erm you know just happy, jolly, you know people who were having a nice holiday, I mean there’s absolutely no way that they’d, I mean you know, they didn’t do anything to Madeleine and there’s just no way that they could have done and you know, if, even if they had, there’s just no way that somebody could come and sit at the table and just behave normally”.
1578 “Who left the table during the meal and why”?
Reply “Well Matt left first of all to go back and chivvy Dave and Fi and Diane along, cos they hadn’t arrived by about five to nine, so he left and he said he’d just check on the rooms while, would just listen outside the doors while, you know while he was on his way back, erm he passed Dave and Fi and Diane as he was going, so they arrived at the table, erm Matt, Matt carried on and just listened outside the windows, erm he came back, erm about five minutes later, Gerry went to check and actually go in and look at Sean, Amelie and Madeleine, cos they’d only been at the table I suppose then for about twenty five minutes and Matt had only gone to listen at the windows, not to actually go in the rooms, erm then he came back having talked to Gerry on the way back, erm and while Gerry was still away, Jane went to check on Ella and Evie, erm and then Gerry got back and then Jane got back and then about fifteen minutes later, sort of about nine twenty five, nine thirty Matt and Russell went off to check on Grace and Ella and Evie and Kate got up to say that she was gonna go and check as well, then Matt and Russell volunteered to check on the twins and Madeleine instead of her going, erm so they went, Matt came back, erm and Russell had stayed behind cos Evie had been sick and so he stayed with her and then we ate our food and then Jane went to take over from Russell, that was so he could come and eat something, erm and that was probably at about twenty to ten, I don’t, not sure about that really but erm, yeah it was about twenty to ten probably, quarter to ten maybe, erm and they cooked fresh and then so Russell came back, erm and they cooked him a fresh meal and as he was, as he was eating that, Kate said she’d go and check and that would have been about five to ten, ten o’clock, so she went off and then came back, sort of five, ten, be about five past ten maybe and came back saying Madeleine’s gone and then we all got up from the table and ran up to the apartment. Diane stayed at the table actually, erm I think actually I’d taken my denim jacket off cos I remember her bringing that up to me later on, erm but yeah Diane stayed at the table and, and then you know, the rest, the rest kind of, well we all went up and then (inaudible)”.
1578 “When, when Matthew first went to chivvy up the PAYNE’s”.
1578 “What, what did he actually tell you that he was going to do in respect of checking on the children”?
Reply “He just said he’d have a listen outside the windows, erm cos I mean we’d only left our room about fifteen minutes ago, fifteen minutes before that, erm and you know because the, Madeleine and the twins were basically in the room next to Grace, erm he just said he’d put his ear to that window as well, erm and I can’t remember whether he said he’d check on Ella and Evie as well, I have a feeling that he didn’t because Russell had you know more or less only just sat down, erm I certainly remember him saying he’d just listen outside our window and Gerry and Kate’s, erm when he came back, he might have said that he’d listened outside Ella and Evie’s as well but I’m not sure about that, but he came back and said he listen, you know it was all quiet from the outside of our windows and the outside of Gerry and Kate’s”.
1578 “A few moments ago on the, on the first account that you’ve just given me”.
1578 “You said that he told you he was going to listen outside the doors”.
Reply “Well the windows sorry, well he, yeah I mean mmm”.
1578 “I just wanted to clarify what he actually said to you”.
Reply “Erm, I can’t remember what, I mean he said he’d just listen outside, erm I don’t know whether he said doors or windows, but when he came back he said he’d listened outside the windows, I mean, erm I mean you wouldn’t listen outside the front doors and he could only listen outside the bedroom doors by going inside, so I mean, but I, I don’t know what he said exactly when he was going, but the assumption was I think that he’d listen outside the windows and when he came back, he’d listened outside the windows”.
1578 “He actually mentioned windows when he came back”?
Reply “Yeah I think he must have done”.
1578 “Because again you’ve just said, he said everything was all quiet”?
Reply “Yeah I mean, erm yeah I think he you know, everything was quiet, he’d just kind of put his ear to the shutters and”.
1578 “I’m not, I’m not trying to”.
Reply “No I know, I’m just, no, no, no I’m just erm”.
1578 “Put you on the spot Rachael, I’m just trying to clarify what you think he actually said to you at the time”?
Reply “I know, erm well I don’t remember whether he said everything’s okay, it’s all quiet, or whether he said you know, I’ve listened, I’ve listened outside the windows and it was all quiet, erm I think when he left the table he must have said that he was gonna listen outside the windows and then when he came back, he was like yeah everything’s okay, it’s all, it’s all quiet, but I mean you know it’s nearly a year on so I can’t, I can’t remember specifically, I don’t know what, I can’t remember whether, I mean that might be in my statement that I gave in Portugal”.
1578 “Again I think we’ve covered this, did you see Gerald leaving the table during the meal”?
Reply “Yes at sort of five past nine”.
1578 “And well what time did you see him leave the table”?
Reply “It was about five past nine I think”.
1578 “How long was he absent for”?
Reply “I don’t know, it would have only been about five minutes, seven minutes maybe, I mean I don’t know but”.
1578 “And what did he say when he came back”?
Reply “Erm that he’d met Jez on the pavement, on the road and they’d had a chat about the tennis tournament”.
1578 “Who did he say that to”?
Reply “I think just generally to the table”.
1578 “And was he behaving or acting different when he returned”?
Reply “No was just the same cheery self”.
1578 “Did you see Jane leaving the table during the meal”?
Reply “Yes at, not that long after Gerry had got back, oh no, no, no Gerry hadn’t got back, not that, not that long after Gerry had gone, erm so”.
1578 “What time”?
Reply “I mean maybe about ten past nine”.
1578 “About how long was she absent for”?
Reply “About five minutes, bit less maybe”.
1578 “Was she showing any different behaviour or attitude when she returned”?
Reply “No, that’s no, same as normal”.
1578 “Did you see Matthew leaving the table during the meal”?
Reply “Yeah he and Russell left together, well apart, well Matt left by himself at about five to nine when he went to see where Diane, Dave and Fi were and then he left again with Russell about twenty five past nine, half past nine”.
1578 “About how long was he absent for”?
Reply “Erm the first time you know less than five minutes and then the next time probably about five minutes, maybe about six minutes”.
1578 “What did Matthew say when he came back”?
Reply “Erm when he came back the first time he said that everything was quiet, when he came back the second time after he’d been into Grace and then into the twins and Madeleine, erm he just said to Kate as he got back, you know all quiet, everything’s okay, maybe it was just all quiet”.
1578 “Did you hear him say that to Kate, or is that what Kate told you”?
Reply “Erm no I think, I mean I remember him saying you know it was all okay, all quiet”.
1578 “And again was he behaving or acting differently when he returned”?
Reply “No, same as normal”.
1578 “Did you see Russell leaving the table during the meal”?
Reply “Yeah he left with Matt at twenty five past nine, nine thirty”.
1578 “About how long was he absent for”?
Reply “Erm it probably was about fifteen to twenty minutes, cos Evie had been sick and he had to change the sheets on the cot and then the pyjamas all that sort of thing and Jane had to eat her dinner before she went up to change places with him”.
1578 “And what did Russell say when he came back”?
Reply “Erm whatever it, I think basically he just said that Evie had been sick and erm, don’t remember what else, where’s his food or something like that I expect, cos we’d all eaten ours or were finishing off ours”.
1578 “Was he behaving or reacting differently”?
1578 “When he returned”.
Reply “The same as normal”.
1578 “Did you see Kate leaving the table during the meal”?
Reply “Just at five to ten, ten o’clock”.
1578 “About how long was she absent”?
Reply “About five minutes, slightly longer, you know, five to seven minutes maybe”.
1578 “And what did Kate say when she got back”?
Reply “Madeleine’s gone, Madeleine’s gone, she repeated it twice, well she kept, I mean she didn’t actually get back to the table, she kind of was erm about three quarters of the way down the path that came from the Reception towards the Tapas and she shouted, ‘Gerry, Madeleine’s gone, Madeleine’s gone’ and then we all got up and ran after her and back up to their apartment”.
1578 “How did she look”?
Reply “Distressed, upset, she was crying”.
1578 “What was her behaviour like”?
Reply “Well I mean she was really upset, she was erm you know, shouting, ‘Madeleine’s gone’ and then as we’re running up the road, you know just carried on repeating that, erm and crying, sort of you know, kind of verging on the hysterical really”.
1578 “Were you shocked yourself by what she said”?
Reply “Yeah, I mean my, you know, my initial reaction was that you know Madeleine must have got out of bed and you know possibly wandered into the garden or something like that, erm but then when, when Kate said that the shutters were up and the window was open, erm I mean we were shocked anyway that she’d gone, but then when the shutters were up and the windows were open and we knew that, that was even more disturbing, erm and it was just a really horrible feeling, erm you know the immediate thought was that somebody had taken her, erm and then you know, I mean as we left the table and went and was sort of following Kate, erm the sort of anxiety was growing about you know Grace and was she okay and was she there, erm so it was kind of a quick stop at the bottom of the steps of their apartment and then carrying on to make sure that Grace is alright, erm you know and she was, erm and then it was just sort of back to and then, and you can’t describe that feeling but erm where could Madeleine be and you know who could have taken her and erm and just sort of erm, that that and the anxiety and that feeling sort of helplessness and you know what we’re gonna do and you know, let’s start looking, it was that sort of, you know just general sort of you know panic and erm and you know Gerry and Kate were you know pretty hysterical and sort of inconsolable and screaming and shouting and erm and it was just a really awful sort of situation, erm and you know and it’s not really changed”.
1578 “What did you do”?
Reply “Erm well followed Kate back to their apartment, we just sort of stood at the bottom of the steps and that you know, I didn’t really want to go in and erm and then went round to check on Grace with Matt, erm and then once you know we’d seen her and she was still asleep, erm Matt went off and I went to Russell and Jane’s apartment and told Jane what had happened and then Jane told me that she’d seen somebody carrying a child away”.
1578 “Did she actually tell you that inside her apartment, or when you were outside in the courtyard”?
Reply “No it was sort of outside in that courtyard, just sort of outside her door though”.
1578 “Did you go into the McCANN’s apartment”?
1578 “Did you go into the bedroom where the children were asleep”?
Reply “Er no”.
1578 “Say if that’s a no then you can’t describe what you saw”?
1578 “Did you see the twins”?
1578 “And again did you notice anything unusual about them”?
Reply “No I didn’t see them”.
1578 “What did you do next, did you take part in the subsequent searches”?
Reply “I mean only just searching the steps and the other floors with Gerry”.
1578 “Just yourself and Gerry”?
1578 “And that’s the only search you did”?
1578 “On realising Madeleine had not been found in the first ten minutes, how did Kate react”?
Reply “She was really upset, she was hysterical, really distressed, crying and screaming, there’s no way she could have acted that, or anyone could have in fact, I don’t think, not even an actress”.
1578 “On realising Madeleine had not been found in the first ten minutes, how did Gerry react”?
Reply “Very similar to Kate, it was you know screaming, shouting, erm crying, just you know, he was very much a, you know a father whose child had disappeared, as Kate was a mother whose child had disappeared or wouldn’t you know”.
1578 “What do you think about their behaviour considering that Madeleine had gone missing”?
Reply “I think it was a very erm you know natural reaction, I can’t image that anyone else would act differently in that sort of situation and that you know, I don’t think it’s something that you could put on either”.
1578 “What did you do between ten thirty pm in the evening and ten am the following day, who did you see”?
Reply “Erm well most of the time I spent talking to Jane and sort of checking on Grace, erm and saw, I remember the nannies coming up to talk to us, some of the Mark WARNER nannies and they’d been searching and looking round the village and sort of you know, rallying friends and people that they knew, erm I mean we were waiting for the Police for a lot of that time cos they didn’t turn up for ages, erm and, and then when the GNR did arrive, erm you know, they came to say hello and erm Sylvia was there with them and so was Robert MURAT, erm there were other people sort of milling around in the background but Sylvia introduced herself and so did Robert MURAT, erm I mean he just introduced himself to me as Robert and we shook hands, erm and then sort of remember talking to somebody from I think, think (inaudible) one of the apartments on the floor above, sort of an older guy, kind of said oh he went missing when he was a child for about ten days and he, and he, you know he came back again sort of thing, well he was, I can’t remember whether he said he was taken or, it wasn’t that he’d run away, I mean maybe he sort of too young to remember or something but he said that he was missing and he’d reappeared, erm and yeah just and then erm after the Police arrived, erm I mean we were just you know talking about what we should do and then I thought of ringing James LANDALE and you know seeing if we could get it on the news, erm and made those phone calls, erm and then the PJ arrived, I don’t know what time that was though, probably about two-ish or something, erm and, and then I think we went to bed about three, maybe might have been a bit later but we did think we ought to go and get some sleep, erm cos there wasn’t really much that we could do, erm and then that morning, erm I mean Grace was always up sort of about six, half six, erm and when we got up you know everything was quiet outside, they didn’t seem you know the Police didn’t seem to be around or, there didn’t seem to be any activity, erm Matt took Grace up for breakfast to the Millennium, erm and they came back, I remember having, sort of being on the phone a little bit to the BBC I think that morning, erm and then sort of various phone calls, I talked to John CORNER who’s a friend of Gerry and Kate’s, erm cos the BBC wanted a picture of Madeleine, erm and he had some photos that he was going to be able to send them, erm and then and I think maybe about ten-ish, well we would have taken Grace to crèche I think for about nine half nine I think did we that day, I think we took her, erm then I think about ten, half ten Gerry, Kate, Matt and Jane and maybe Dave as well, erm went to Portimão to the Police Station to start doing interviews”.
1578 “The next question is, who did you talk to, so was there anyone else that you’ve not covered”?
Reply “I don’t think so no”.
1578 “The older guy”.
1578 “From the apartments upstairs said that he had been”.
Reply “He had been”.
1578 “Or he had disappeared or”.
Reply “Yes when he was a child, erm”.
1578 “Do you know which apartment he was in”?
Reply “No, erm”.
1578 “Or his name or description”?
Reply “No, erm he had grey hair, sort of slim-ish guy, erm he was with a woman you know, his wife I presumed, erm”.
1578 “What nationality was he”?
Reply “He was English, British, erm you know he must have been in his sixties, erm”.
1578 “Do you know which apartment he was in”?
Reply “No I don’t”.
1578 “Where did you speak with him”?
Reply “Because we were”.
1578 “Sorry, where did you speak”?
Reply “Oh where, just in that courtyard-y bit, kind of at the bottom of the steps, just outside Russell and Jane’s apartment really, they were going up, back up to their apartment, erm and he knew what had been going on, or you know I think he’d been out in the village or and well he knew that there was a child missing and he said, you know, don’t worry it will be alright or something like that, or you know, I went missing when I was little and I came back, erm but no I don’t know what his name is or which apartment he was in”.
1578 “And you mentioned another guy, John CORNER”?
Reply “Yes, he’s a friend of Gerry and Kate’s who was in England, I spoke to him on the phone, on Kate’s phone actually”.
Reply “That was the next morning, sort of you know, eight o’clock in the morning, that sort of time”.
1578 “When did you leave Portugal”?
Reply “On the erm, erm the Thursday the erm seventeenth of May, it was a Thursday, I think it was the seventeenth”.
1578 “And who was that with”?
Reply “Erm Russell and Jane, Ella and Evie, Matt, Grace, me and erm, no just us”.
Reply “Craig from Mark WARNER was all, sort of also travelled with us, which cos he was going back to the UK as well”.
1578 “So during that two week period then after Madeleine had disappeared, how many times did you meet with Kate and Gerry”?
Reply “Erm, I mean not, not that often, erm I mean I think, mmm, oh we didn’t kind of meet up specifically to chat or talk about things or see what was happening, erm I mean we just seen them sometimes at the crèche when they collected Sean and Amelie, although quite a lot of the time Sandy who’s Gerry’s brother in law and Trish who’s Gerry’s sister erm collected the twins, erm I think one afternoon we kind of sat down in Dave and Fi’s apartment and talked to Gerry and Kate and they sort of told us you know what was happening and what was being done and erm that would probably have been either Sunday or the Monday, something like that but I mean I can’t be certain about days, erm and we saw them at church, when we went to church, I think the first time we went to church was on the Saturday and then we went on the Sunday, cos it was like a Mothering Sunday thing on Sunday, we went then, erm and then I think on the Thursday after, the following Thursday the tenth, there was some sort of vigil in the church and then we went to church again on the Sunday the thirteenth and on the Saturday the twelfth, which was Madeleine’s birthday, erm we went to a villa near the Resort, near, on a Resort and sort of had a barbecue and sort of had a quiet day, we sort of, cos it was Madeleine’s birthday”.
1578 “Do you think they were showing normal behaviour for parents who had lost a child”?
Reply “Mmm yes absolutely, I mean you know I’ve never met any other parents who’ve lost a child but I would assume that that’s how people would behave, I mean you know Kate cried a lot and erm, well I can’t imagine how people would behave differently, you know, I don’t think anyone could just sort of, yes alright okay this is you know, she’s disappeared but we’re just gonna carry on as normal, well you just couldn’t do that I don’t think, don’t think anyone could, so I think they, you know the way they behaved was entirely natural”.
1578 “During the time you were on holiday, did you notice any situation where Kate and Gerry were talking to any unknown person”?
Reply “No I mean, no I mean nobody that there was you know not another family that were on holiday but I don’t specifically remember them talking to other couples that, or you know families that were on holiday aside from Steve and his wife on the night of the third and then erm, erm I mean when the children were playing in their recreation area, but I don’t specifically remember them talking to anyone but you know we’d all kind of say hello to other parents, or you know ask what they’d been doing that day, that sort of thing, but you know, nobody that was like a stranger, nobody that didn’t have kids really, erm because everyone in that sort of, in the compound where the recreation area was and where the swimming pool was, were Mark WARNER guests, holiday guests and I think everyone had children”.
1578 “Did you see Kate or Gerry inside any car during the holiday period”?
Reply “During the whole time that we were there, or just, or up to the third of May or, I mean I never saw them in a car the whole time, I mean there was no car”.
1578 “Answers the question then”.
Reply “Yeah, other than you know sort of going to the Police Station and that sort of thing, but that would have been driven by Police”.
1578 “Is there any supplementary explanation that you consider pertinent or relevant to establish the material truth”?
Reply “Erm what do you mean, in just sort of anything as well”?
1578 “I guess do you have any other information that would assist the enquiry”?
Reply “Mmm I mean nothing, you know it was just a really quiet Resort, there was nobody about you know before, I mean even after, until the media arrived, the place was dead really, erm I mean, kind of feel that you know, you would have noticed, you know ought to have noticed if there were strangers around or sort of people who looked slightly odd or were hanging around too much, but then again you know when you, kind of eyes that tend to be on the ground because you know, everyone’s got small children, you tend not to be looking up that much, so erm no but it was just so quiet that anyone really without children would you know, would stand out, erm you know but there were places where people could hide you know, there were, there cer, there were certainly areas you know near that car park and those apartments off, opposite where there are bushes, where somebody could hide and be watching us, erm you know and our routine was so set, you know every night we had dinner at eight thirty in the Tapas, erm and it wouldn’t have been hard to find that out, erm or to just you know, watch every night and see what we did, erm so but I mean you know, there was, you just didn’t see anything unusual, erm and you know the only thing that really sort of bugs me is that you know Robert MURAT was there that night and for some reason he said he’s not but you know, when he was arrested, or taken in for questioning, erm I mean had a really uneasy feeling about him on the night when I met him and I said this to the Portuguese, I said it in my, it’s erm, I did three statements and the third one that I did was specifically about seeing MURAT on the night, erm and when I met him on the third of May and we shook hands, erm and he said he wanted to help, you know he was one of those people that I just kind of took an instant dislike to almost, just felt really uneasy about him and erm he just came, he was just sort of very over familiar and kind of wanting to be in the thick of things, and I just thought that was slightly odd behaviour, erm and you know I, you know didn’t think sort of anything of it really at the time, just some you know, a bit odd, erm and then we saw him again, I don’t know which day it was, it must have be, it wasn’t, it was either, I think it might have been the Saturday erm I was coming back from the Supermarket with Russell, I think maybe with Fiona, don’t know whether it was Fi but Russell was definitely there and we saw him again and he just kind of said, ‘hello and how’s things going’ and then erm he was in the church on the Sunday I think, the first Sunday after Madeleine disappeared, erm and I just had this funny feeling about him and because when Jane had seen this man carrying the child, when we’d been discuss, you know when she told me that she’d seen somebody carrying a child, she said at the time she thought it was odd but you know, kind of as you’re wandering about every day, you see lots of things that are odd but you know, you don’t really sort of act upon it, erm so just cos I thought that MURAT you know just gave me a funny feeling, I thought I’d just tell everyone but I just thought you know, he was a bit strange or he just made me feel uneasy and I was literally about to do that and I remember I went for a run along the beach and came back, and this is on Monday the erm the fourteenth, the day that he was arrested or whatever, erm as I went for a run, came back, thought I’ll just, you know had a shower and stuff and thought that I’d go and tell everyone that you know I just didn’t like him and had this uneasy feeling about him and I switched on the TV and he was there you know, being taken off to the Police Station, which you know, made me feel quite sick, it was a horrible feeling, erm anyway that was kind of the end of that, erm and it was only, and then it was, and then the next day erm the only reason that sort of me and Russell and Fiona ended up doing statements about seeing Robert MURAT on the night, was that Jane was talking to Bob SMALL the next day about doing this sort of, I think it was connected to that surveillance thing she’d done, erm I think it was on the Sunday, erm and she’d mentioned to him that you know, obviously when I’d seen MURAT on the TV, I’d said oh you know, he was there on the night and you know we spoke, erm it was only cos Jane mentioned that to Bob SMALL that he ended up sort of calling back later on and saying actually you know, you’d better talk to the Portuguese about that, erm you know at that time, we didn’t know that he was, I mean I didn’t know that he was saying he wasn’t there on the night, that only came out I think, I don’t know even if I knew about that before I left Portugal, erm, erm so then you know, and then we, Russell, Fiona and I went back to Portugal to do that sort of sitting in the room with him, to see whether he’d kind of break under the pressure or whatever, erm I mean he didn’t, you know he was just telling lies about being there on the night and I, you know nobody, oh I don’t know, I presume that has been followed up but it just seems quite significant, I don’t know why it hasn’t been posted in the media, it doesn’t seem to have been pursued, which kind of makes you think that the Police haven’t really done much about it, erm you know they’ve kind of gone after Gerry and Kate and that’s been all over the papers and erm you know, there’s this man who was there on the night, who’s telling, you know, who’s lying about it and nothing really about that’s come out, erm you know in the Press we were made out to sort of be the bullies in the, that stand off with him you know it was all very controlled and you know, just yes he was there and he was saying he wasn’t you know, there was no shouting and screaming or anything like that which the Press made out to be, erm but you know he was there and the Police were there with him on the night as well, you know the GNR, I think he was translating, and yet you know he’s saying that he wasn’t there and everyone seems to believe that, or that’s you know, that’s my impression anyway”.
1578 “Okay. We shall finish this interview at this point”.
1578 “And I’ll go and speak with colleagues”.
1578 “There’s, there is one other issue that I need to ask you about, hopefully it won’t take too long”.
1578 “Alright. So the time now is three twenty eight pm and this interview is ceasing”.